Chewey Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 You don't know much about tribal politics, I take it. Do you think Ronny of Standing Rock wouldn't go out of his way to renege on, or undercut, any agreement allowing the use of the Sioux name/logo? What do we do, sue him in tribal courts packed with his allies and relatives? Remember the tribes are largely "sovereign" nations, inherent contradictions notwithstanding. You could get every tribal governing body to support the name/logo forever tomorrow, only to have the next elections undo that support based on whatever whim or agenda was being pressed. The NC$$ effectively made UND and the state beholden to the tribes. This made the name/logo like a bad hand in poker, and it's time to fold and move on. I'm not completely knowledgable about them but I did work on one of the ND's reservations - the TMBC - one recodifying their Tribal Constitution. I understand your points and they're good ones but, perhaps, as times goes on an ongoing working relationship could be established. Perhaps I am a bit of a Pollyanna but I don't think that this avenue should be abandoned at this point. I am sure the tribes have been preached to and preached to over the years by the PC whiners/racists. UND really has not had the opportunity to counter that negative energy. Once that negative energy begins to be countered, I think that the status between the university and the tribes would be much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I think UND really got screwed in reguards to the court trial. UND has to get approval from 2 tribes instead of 1 like Central Michigan. CMU got approval to the closest tribe for UND it would have been the Spirit Lake. Secondly i never heard that any of these other schools, FSU, CMU, Utah, etc... have permanent use of their name unlike UND where one tribe changes their mind at anytime and the name is gone. So the NCAA did a number on the Sioux nickname court trial. Of course our Attorney General didn't do squat for UND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I'm not completely knowledgable about them but I did work on one of the ND's reservations - the TMBC - one recodifying their Tribal Constitution. I understand your points and they're good ones but, perhaps, as times goes on an ongoing working relationship could be established. Perhaps I am a bit of a Pollyanna but I don't think that this avenue should be abandoned at this point. I am sure the tribes have been preached to and preached to over the years by the PC whiners/racists. UND really has not had the opportunity to counter that negative energy. Once that negative energy begins to be countered, I think that the status between the university and the tribes would be much better. Perhaps, but the perception is unbelievable. Right now, I percieve that working with the tribes wouldn't mean a partnership. It would mean divesting control over many issues, not necessarily NA related to a non-campus entity. It would be like the State of Nebraska dictating certain public funding mandates for the state of Iowa forcing Iowa to spend Iowa state funding on things that benefits Nebraskans and not necessarily Iowans without any particular investment by Nebraska other than the mandating. The tribes shouldn't control UND or any part of it. Nor should any particular race or ethnic group. They shouldn't control anything but their own people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I think UND really got screwed in reguards to the court trial. UND has to get approval from 2 tribes instead of 1 like Central Michigan. CMU got approval to the closest tribe for UND it would have been the Spirit Lake. Secondly i never heard that any of these other schools, FSU, CMU, Utah, etc... have permanent use of their name unlike UND where one tribe changes their mind at anytime and the name is gone. So the NCAA did a number on the Sioux nickname court trial. Of course our Attorney General didn't do squat for UND. CMU's closest tribe is in the same town as the university, not exactly the same situation as UND/Grand Forks. About one-third of the residents in Mount Pleasant live on reservation land, and the town is effectively surrounded by the reservation. Heck, the casino is only about four miles from CMU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 This may have been discussed before and I am not aware of it but if we do change our nickname/logo would the university discontinue some of the Native American Programs. Also, how about the scholarships given to those Native Americans? Isn't it discrimation by ethnic group if 80% of the Native Americans get a scholarship and only 15% of Asians get a scholarship when they meet the same criteria except for their ethnic background. Just some thoughts! I was all for the nickname and believed we should fight it until the end but the PC has gotten out of hand and we may never conquire this battle. Doing that would make us hypocrites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Illiniwek Supporter Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Doing that would make us hypocrites.If the nickname is eliminated, there will inevitably be a backlash. For how long and to what extent that backlash occurs, nobody can predict. Regarding the stats on people with similar test scores and qualifications yet different ethnic backgrounds getting a differing amount of scholarship dollars: Its JMHO, but that isn't a University of North Dakota concern-rather it's a concern for your state's entire college system, and the higher education system throughout the US as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog42 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 If the nickname is eliminated, there will inevitably be a backlash. For how long and to what extent that backlash occurs, nobody can predict. Regarding the stats on people with similar test scores and qualifications yet different ethnic backgrounds getting a differing amount of scholarship dollars: Its JMHO, but that isn't a University of North Dakota concern-rather it's a concern for your state's entire college system, and the higher education system throughout the US as well. Then tell me why the other state universities don't have all these NA programs, I agree with you but UND has significently more than other universities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Illiniwek Supporter Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Then tell me why the other state universities don't have all these NA programs, I agree with you but UND has significently more than other universities. My point is that the programs that are out there to get smart kids who can't afford college into college should be far, far more color-blind, gender-blind, etc. To the extent that there is an already-existing program at UND for some specific ethnicity: if it is determined by the taxpayers that it is needed, then IMHO it should be a program that exists for all of the taxpayer-supported schools within the state of North Dakota. I don't think your nickname (whatever it is) should affect who gets a scholarship at your school: and that goes for schools in North Dakota, South Dakota, Maine, Hawaii and everywhere in between. Yes, I recognize that there may be some exceptions but IMHO they should be privately funded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Kelley distances UND from tribal decisions on Fighting Sioux nickname Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Aren't the Native American programs at UND state or federal required? Or is it just the free tuition, free books, free everything? I'm pretty sure UND has no control over one or both of those, but I could be wrong. So if I'm correct, there's not much UND could do in the way of cutting programs or scholarships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 Aren't the Native American programs at UND state or federal required? Or is it just the free tuition, free books, free everything? I'm pretty sure UND has no control over one or both of those, but I could be wrong. So if I'm correct, there's not much UND could do in the way of cutting programs or scholarships. I am not an expert on this subject but have paid attention at least a little bit. I am pretty sure that the NA programs at UND are not required by any government. Otherwise there would be more schools with comparable programs. I believe that at least most of the programs are federally funded. This funding makes them break even or profitable for UND. UND could cut the programs whenever the funding contracts run out. But they would lose the funding and probably lose the students, neither of which is really desirable. I am also pretty sure that there are few, if any, NA students that get free everything. I have no idea what the statistics are for financial assistance for NA students versus any other student population. I would guess that a higher percentage of NA students get some kind of financial help than the average small town North Dakota kid. But the myth that all NA students get everything paid for really needs to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxforeverbaby Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Some of the NA programs are funded by federal grants, so you could in a way say that the federal government has a say in them but not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 How so? Programs, benefits, assistant, etc., for minority groups are provided because a need has been identified that the University can meet/provide. To attach 'strings' to the programs, such as we get to keep the name or logo or else, is hypocritical. Think of it this way, the Red Cross comes into a disaster area and provides meals for the victims but withdraws from the area because the some of the victims refuse to donate blood. The NA programs on UND campus are funded by federal grants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Programs, benefits, assistant, etc., for minority groups are provided because a need has been identified that the University can meet/provide. To attach 'strings' to the programs, such as we get to keep the name or logo or else, is hypocritical. Think of it this way, the Red Cross comes into a disaster area and provides meals for the victims but withdraws from the area because the some of the victims refuse to donate blood. The NA programs on UND campus are funded by federal grants. I agree we can't do that and that would make UND look incredibly bad. Not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I guess the way I see it... IF they were to take away something from us that we all hold so near and dear to our hearts, it would be an appropriate "punishment" (for lack of a better term) to withdraw the special privileges. But that's just my opinion. You're certainly entitled to yours.The people of Spirit Lake clearly affirmed the nickname by a great margin, yet there's still talk on this board about some kind of ridiculous punishment if the nickname is lost that would harm most the people on the reservations who clearly are not aligned with the PC professors? Not only is that mean spirited, but illogical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iramurphy Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Having an opinion is fine but it should be based on facts rather than myth. Not all of the NA programing is federal. Some are, some are combinations and there are foundation grant dollars for different foundations. It might be fair to evaluate programming and IF there is programming in place with discretionary funds started because of the Fighting Sioux name, take a look at it. Federal programs are not there based on the name. Programs are in place to help kids who may need help and unfortunately a higher percentage of the "at risk" kids come from areas where the economy is poor and that includes many reservations. If this issue doesn't get resolved, your way, avoid the casinos and don't do business with those leaders and businesses who you disagree with, especially those who have shown dishonesty and lack of integrity with regard to misinformation on this issue. Don't deprive kids of a chance at getting an education and bettering themselves. We have enough people in this country who lack the education to better there plight and too much of the resulting buden falls on those of us who pay taxes. It is cheaper and better for all of us to provide the opportunity for an education and help people help themselves no matter what ethnicity. It is not true that all NA students get a free education. There is programming in place to help NA students. The amounts differ per student and per program. I would not agree to payment for the use of the name. I would agree to outreach with our coaches and athletic teams and our educational resources for workshops for reservation teachers and students with our university professors and clinics on the reservations with our coaches and athletes. I would also suggest to President Kelly a requirement for community service for graduation with extra credit for time given to a reservation or for reservation kids. This issue can be used to build relationships and educate our respective communities in order to improve understanding and working relationships for reservation people and for our University community. That would do more good for more peopelethan anything the name does for our atheltic teams. The name and logo have and can continue to be great but it can't continue to be a detriment to our atheltic teams and hurt our chances of conference affiliation. There should be some way to be able to show thanks to those people who did so much work on the reservation to get this passed. If the stories in the paper are correct, it seems as if they took a lot of crap from the opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 It would be wrong to stop/reduce/change in any way UND Native American programs if we lose our name and logo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 The people of Spirit Lake clearly affirmed the nickname by a great margin, yet there's still talk on this board about some kind of ridiculous punishment if the nickname is lost that would harm most the people on the reservations who clearly are not aligned with the PC professors? Not only is that mean spirited, but illogical. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Because they voted overwhelmingly in favor of it, I actually agree with this. Even if the voting was overwhelmingly against, it would be wrong. The University has NEVER stipulated NA programs would exist only if we continue or were given permission to use our name and logo, NEVER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Even if the voting was overwhelmingly against, it would be wrong. The University has NEVER stipulated NA programs would exist only if we continue or were given permission to use our name and logo, NEVER. That, and they are not obligated to support UND's use of the nickname. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 It would be wrong to stop/reduce/change in any way UND Native American programs if we lose our name and logo. Right. The programs are an absolute good. To try and revoke/rescind them would be simply a puerile, knee-jerk reaction to an unfavorable result. This is sort of like what the PC zealots/racists would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Illiniwek Supporter Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 The University has NEVER stipulated NA programs would exist only if we continue or were given permission to use our name and logo, NEVER.Nevertheless, with the wide support of the nickname IMHO sooner or later financial support for programs desired by nickname opponents would wane if the nickname were abolished. Either taxpayer support, voluntary contribution support or both. There is a long wish list of programs seeking $$ in any form: make an unpopular decision and people will react by voting with their feet. A question for the entire board: wasn't a gathering of some sort canceled this year? (I assumed it was something that was supported by advertising or contributions.) The programs are an absolute good.If that is so, then they stand on their own, both in terms of the nickname at your school and at every other school. Whatever programs are an "absolute good" should take place, be taught, etc. at the U of ND, ND State and all other tax-supported institutions. (And for that matter, Minnesota and Montana too.) And IMHO, their "absolute good" should be so self-evident that the vast majority of people should recognize their value. OTOH, the vast majority of people do recognize that the nickname and logo aren't evil: and yet this entire board debates that very point endlessly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 From my point of view, the special programs were like a reward or incentive for their continued support. As if to say... we appreciate your support, therefore we're giving you something special that isn't offered to just anybody and everybody. But that's just my opinion, and I speak for nobody but myself. I think you might be missing the point the programs aren't tied to the name or the sports programs they were established to educate and give native american kids an opportunity to recieve their education. I think it would be a horrible idea to think we are going to get rid of these programs if UND doesn't get to keep the Fighting Sioux name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 From my point of view, the special programs were like a reward or incentive for their continued support. As if to say... we appreciate your support, therefore we're giving you something special that isn't offered to just anybody and everybody. But that's just my opinion, and I speak for nobody but myself. W R O N G !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I think you might be missing the point the programs aren't tied to the name or the sports programs they were established to educate and give native american kids an opportunity to recieve their education. I think it would be a horrible idea to think we are going to get rid of these programs if UND doesn't get to keep the Fighting Sioux name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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