krangodance Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Besides, you wanna talk parity? By my count 19 different teams have won the title in MBB since 1980 (that's as far back as i'm willing to research). How many different hockey teams have won the hockey title in that time? 14. And you are calling out ridiculousness? 19 out of 330+ < 6% 14 out of 58 24% spinning statistics won't work when your comments are directed toward me. besides, i was defending my team against a previous poster's attempts at making yet another comparison between the bison winning the summit league and the sioux winning seven national championships. i still contend that that is ridiculous. perhpas you disagree or perhaps you're just defending your team. i find it ironic that you would call me out for arguing against such a point, which was linked off the und hockey site by the way, by critiicizing my decision to post on a basketball thread when so many of your fellow bison fans are posting anti-sioux material on a sioux forum, basketball or not. ah, sports, what would we argue about without them? it's certainly more exciting than religion or politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Easier than both of these is making the final five in the wcha and stepping into the ncaa tournament. To win the Summit regular season and get the #1 seed to set yourself up for winning the tournament, we had to go 16-2 and 26-6. You can mail it in at just above .500 and boom . . . final five . . get a hot goalie boom . . . ncaa tournament. You can stumble for half the regular season and pull out ncaa berth from nowhere as more than 25% team make the national tournament. If the gophers happen to get in this year, case in point. It seem like reputation and fan base are as important as anything in making the ncaa tournament in hockey, espcially where MN is concerned. Just an outsiders view. Slacker path to get into the NCAA MBB tourney: You need to be in an 8 team conference, go 0-for-season, and then win 3 conference tourney games. Slacker path to get to the NCAA Mens Ice Hockey tournament from the WCHA: You need to go 0-for season (Michigan Tech gave 'er a run this year), win a 2-of-3 series against the top team in the league (in their arena), and then win 3 games (Thursday play-in, semi-final, final) at the Final Five. NOTE: No team playing in the play-in game has won the WCHA Final Five to date. Which would you rather bank on? And as far as "seem like reputation and fan base are as important as anything in making the ncaa tournament in hockey" [sic], you really need to get educated on the hockey selection process, specifically the Pairwise Ranking Process in there. There are no dark, cigar-smoke filled rooms like in other selection processes, specificallly, how are the SDSU women seeded so low relative to polls/rankings? Herd, you disappoint me. You're really that insecure about NDSU's accomplishment that you feel the need to denegrate the achievements of others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 19 out of 330+ < 6% 14 out of 58 24% spinning statistics won't work when your comments are directed toward me. besides, i was defending my team against a previous poster's attempts at making yet another comparison between the bison winning the summit league and the sioux winning seven national championships. i still contend that that is ridiculous. perhpas you disagree or perhaps you're just defending your team. i find it ironic that you would call me out for arguing against such a point, which was linked off the und hockey site by the way, by critiicizing my decision to post on a basketball thread when so many of your fellow bison fans are posting anti-sioux material on a sioux forum, basketball or not. ah, sports, what would we argue about without them? it's certainly more exciting than religion or politics. Now I understand what's shaping your perception here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krangodance Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 You can stumble for half the regular season and pull out ncaa berth from nowhere as more than 25% team make the national tournament. the basic question that has lead to all this back-and-forth is this: is the bison's accomplishment of making the ncaa tournament the biggest accomplishment in north dakota state history? you threw out a fair stat so let's evaluate it. 16 of 58 d1 college hockey teams make the playoffs, which is approximately 27.6%. 65 of 334 d1 college basketball teams make the playoffs, which is approximately 19.5% based solely on numbers, it is clearly more prestigious to make the bb tourney than the hockey tourney. however, the sioux haven't simply made the tournament, they've won the whole thing. let's evaluate that: 1 of 58 d1 college hockey teams wins the national championship, which approximately 1.7% 1.7% of 334 is 5.678. since i'm a numbers guy, i'll admint without hesitation that if ndsu makes the final four it will be the greatest accomplishment in the history of north dakota as there is a lower percentage of basketball teams that reach that level than there is a percentage of hockey teams that win the national championship. i don't give much weight to the argument that the level of national exposure should be taken into account. just because there are more basketball fans than hockey fans in the country doesn't make the accomplishment of representing that sport any greater. however, i'm willing to give a little bit of weight to that fact (like i said, not much). therefore, if ndsu can make it to the elite eight, that qualifies as the greatest division one sports accomplishment in the history of north dakota. i believe that would also be the greatest accomplishment in the history of the summit league as well, which would be impressive. should the bison make it to the elite eight, this year or any other year in the future, the following season i will post a large picture of myself on this forum sporting a bison basketball jersey at a sioux hockey game. beer in hand and a smile on my face. until then, any further suggestion that winning the summit league championship is as big an accomplishment in the history of north dakota sports as what the sioux have accomplished in hockey will continue to be viewed by any logical person as proposterous and you know you're only kidding yourself to say otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 the basic question that has lead to all this back-and-forth is this: is the bison's accomplishment of making the ncaa tournament the biggest accomplishment in north dakota state history? any further suggestion that winning the summit league championship is as big an accomplishment in the history of north dakota sports as what the sioux have accomplished in hockey will continue to be viewed by any logical person as proposterous and you know you're only kidding yourself to say otherwise. Agree 100%. I tried to make this point on another thread until the powers-that-be closed it down. As per my previous posts in this thread, I think this SU BB team is terrific, but the hype of making the "Dance" totally outweighs the significance of making the "Dance". SU won a conference tourney...plain and simple. It will be nothing more than that if they don't beat KU, which if very unlikely. Winning a D1 hockey title trumps making the "Dance"...period. SU fans (and I know some) saying that winning a D1AA FB championship is less significant than making the "Dance" in BB are just as illogical. Friday will be great for SU and the state of ND, but it will be a blip on the NCAA BB scene when 2:30 pm on Friday rolls around if SU doesn't win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 It's not like all those guys were in their prime at the same time. I'm going off memory here, but I think when Vonesh was a senior, Rico Burkett was the pg and Jacobson came off the bence as a Frosh. Gardner and Jacobson were in the same class, but didn't Gardner redshirt? I think UND's most talented team of that era was when Jacobson and Guldseth were seniors, with a supporting cast of Johnson, Gardner, and Powell. That would have been an interesting matchup with this NDSU team, but I think the Bison would have superior guard play and win about 60% of the time. IMO, the 1990-91 team was the best UND men's basketball team (I'm too young to have seen any of the Phil Jackson teams, though). The starting lineup that year was: C Vonesh, sr. PF Gardner, fr. SF Guldseth, soph. SG Jacobson, soph. PG Burkett, sr. About the only "weakness" I think that team might face by today's standards is 3-point shooting. It's too bad that Mike Boschee never red-shirted, because if you added him to that team it would be have been even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 IMO, the 1990-91 team was the best UND men's basketball team (I'm too young to have seen any of the Phil Jackson teams, though). The starting lineup that year was: C Vonesh, sr. PF Gardner, fr. SF Guldseth, soph. SG Jacobson, soph. PG Burkett, sr. About the only "weakness" I think that team might face by today's standards is 3-point shooting. It's too bad that Mike Boschee never red-shirted, because if you added him to that team it would be have been even better. I would tend to agree and that was the last UND team I saw play consistantly. But compare those 5 with the current SU starting 5? SU can drill the 3 from 4 spots minus Moormann. I think that would be a biggest difference between the 2 teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach daddy Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I would tend to agree and that was the last UND team I saw play consistantly. But compare those 5 with the current SU starting 5? SU can drill the 3 from 4 spots minus Moormann. I think that would be a biggest difference between the 2 teams. In my opinion (notice I said opinion, wouldn't want to offend someone regarding their bball IQ), that team beats NDSU. Vonesh vs. Moorman (UND, not even close. UCLA, come on!!) Rico vs. Woodside (NDSU, but Rico could guard him) Gulseth vs. Winkleman (push, if I had to pick one, Gully. LSU ring a bell) Jacobson vs. Nelson (Nelson. Great player) Gardner vs. Tveidt (tough matchup for both. Neither can guard the other but lay ups are better than 3's. Gardner) there you go. UND wins..............68-65. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I would tend to agree and that was the last UND team I saw play consistantly. But compare those 5 with the current SU starting 5? SU can drill the 3 from 4 spots minus Moormann. I think that would be a biggest difference between the 2 teams. Just my opinion, but the present NDSU team is a bit too reliant on perimeter play. It can work not to have a viable inside game, but teams like that tend to be quite vulnerable in the post season. The JJ Reddick-era Duke teams, for example, had a tendency to flame out early because of an over-reliance on 3-point shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 In my opinion (notice I said opinion, wouldn't want to offend someone regarding their bball IQ), that team beats NDSU. Vonesh vs. Moorman (UND, not even close. UCLA, come on!!) Rico vs. Woodside (NDSU, but Rico could guard him) Gulseth vs. Winkleman (push, if I had to pick one, Gully. LSU ring a bell) Jacobson vs. Nelson (Nelson. Great player) Gardner vs. Tveidt (tough matchup for both. Neither can guard the other but lay ups are better than 3's. Gardner) there you go. UND wins..............68-65. You give Vonesh too much credit and Moorman not enough. Moormann would score much, but Vonesh would score as much as you think. Woodside would score 20+ on Rico and we all know Rico couldn't score consistanly. Gulseth/Winkleman is a push. Nelson hands down. Gardner would score down low, Tveidt would step outside and shoot 3s all day. Again IMO, best of 7 SU wins 4-2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 You give Vonesh too much credit and Moorman not enough. Moormann would score much, but Vonesh would score as much as you think. Woodside would score 20+ on Rico and we all know Rico couldn't score consistanly. Gulseth/Winkleman is a push. Nelson hands down. Gardner would score down low, Tveidt would step outside and shoot 3s all day. Again IMO, best of 7 SU wins 4-2. Strongly disagree. Vonesh scored over 2000 career points, and had 1200 career rebounds. And that was back when the vast majority of games were against conference teams, so it's not like he padded his numbers against DAC teams. Moormann is not even close to the player V (or Gardner) was. How does a 6'10" guy only average 4 rebounds a game, anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn-O Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 You're confusing accomplishment with media hype and attention. The NCAA dance is a billion dollar industry: every team gets hyped because CBS and ESPN want their investment paid off. If NDSU's women's soccer team or volleyball team won the national championship, that would far, far exceed anything this basketball team is doing or a UND men's hockey frozen four appearance. But, because women's soccer and volleyball don't get much if any hype, the nation yawns. Yet it would be a huge accomplishment. SDSU's women's volleyball, soccer and top 25 women's basketball teams have all made the NCAA field (and soccer actually won a game), so at this point, they are more accomplished than NDSU men's basketball, but just have had no media hype. Just based on the number of teams participating, UND winning a hockey national championship is equivalent to NDSU or UND making the Elite Eight in basketball. NDSU has a very good team, certainly top 100 in DI, and certainly deserves accolades, but hype does not equal accomplishment. As far as your argument that there is parity is college basketball: that's BS except for if you are a member of a BCS league or are Memphis. For the kids participating, yes it's about accomplishment and having a positive experience. But how is hype regarding your athletic department a bad thing? That's the essence of the debate IMO. Chapman understood this and needless to say, is getting quite a return on his investment this week. Go to Google Trends and you'll notice a hockey stick effect on searches for NDSU since....you guessed it, March 10th when Woodside hit the jumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDSU grad Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 IMO, the 1990-91 team was the best UND men's basketball team (I'm too young to have seen any of the Phil Jackson teams, though). The starting lineup that year was: C Vonesh, sr. PF Gardner, fr. SF Guldseth, soph. SG Jacobson, soph. PG Burkett, sr. About the only "weakness" I think that team might face by today's standards is 3-point shooting. It's too bad that Mike Boschee never red-shirted, because if you added him to that team it would be have been even better. Thanks, I was off by a year or two on Vonesh's age; for some reason I thought he was the same grade as Ayinla and Boschee. I think the key difference in a hypothetical mathcup of that team vs. the current NDSU squad is the Bison have four seniors where the Sioux have a young Gardner and Guldseth. Tvedt would probably guard Guldseth, Winks on Gardner. IMO, points would be hard for the Sioux to come by; Bison by 10. Edit: That's a pretty amazing lineup for a D2 team. IMO, four legitimate players with DI talent (Vonesh, Guldseth, Gardner, and Burkett). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 So, to pull this thread a little closer to topic, who's taking the 1990 Fighting Sioux over Kansas in their bracket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 So, to pull this thread a little closer to topic, who's taking the 1990 Fighting Sioux over Kansas in their bracket? Get it right--it's the 1991 Sioux we're mostly wondering about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks, I was off by a year or two on Vonesh's age; for some reason I thought he was the same grade as Ayinla and Boschee. I think the key difference in a hypothetical mathcup of that team vs. the current NDSU squad is the Bison have four seniors where the Sioux have a young Gardner and Guldseth. Tvedt would probably guard Guldseth, Winks on Gardner. IMO, points would be hard for the Sioux to come by; Bison by 10. Edit: That's a pretty amazing lineup for a D2 team. IMO, four legitimate players with DI talent (Vonesh, Guldseth, Gardner, and Burkett). You were actually correct regarding the ages of Vonesh and Boschee--I believe both graduated from high school in 1986. However, Boschee walked-on under Gunther and for whatever reason never red-shirted; whereas Vonesh took a medical red-shirt in the 1988-89 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Strongly disagree. Vonesh scored over 2000 career points, and had 1200 career rebounds. And that was back when the vast majority of games were against conference teams, so it's not like he padded his numbers against DAC teams. Moormann is not even close to the player V (or Gardner) was. How does a 6'10" guy only average 4 rebounds a game, anyway? Not arguing with Vonesh's stats, but I was at UND during his years and the posts he played against were mostly stiffs. I'm not saying Moormann is a stud, but he is very solid defensively and is fairly athletic. He should average more than 4 boards a game no doubt. The athleticism from just the old NCC to the Summitt is huge. Did you see the 4 and 5 that Oakland put on the floor? Decent BB player and great athletes. Vonesh would've struggled against that type of competition night in and night out. A 6'9" who can't jump and with little athletic skill doesn't go far in D1 in any conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moser53 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Not arguing with Vonesh's stats, but I was at UND during his years and the posts he played against were mostly stiffs. I'm not saying Moormann is a stud, but he is very solid defensively and is fairly athletic. He should average more than 4 boards a game no doubt. The athleticism from just the old NCC to the Summitt is huge. Did you see the 4 and 5 than Oakland put on the floor? Decent BB player and great athletes. Vonesh would've struggled against that type of competition night in and night out. A 6'9" who can't jump and with little athletic skill doesn't go far in D1 in any conference. Larry Bird couldn't jump either. It's how you play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herd Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Slacker path to get into the NCAA MBB tourney: You need to be in an 8 team conference, go 0-for-season, and then win 3 conference tourney games. Slacker path to get to the NCAA Mens Ice Hockey tournament from the WCHA: You need to go 0-for season (Michigan Tech gave 'er a run this year), win a 2-of-3 series against the top team in the league (in their arena), and then win 3 games (Thursday play-in, semi-final, final) at the Final Five. NOTE: No team playing in the play-in game has won the WCHA Final Five to date. Which would you rather bank on? And as far as "seem like reputation and fan base are as important as anything in making the ncaa tournament in hockey" [sic], you really need to get educated on the hockey selection process, specifically the Pairwise Ranking Process in there. There are no dark, cigar-smoke filled rooms like in other selection processes, specificallly, how are the SDSU women seeded so low relative to polls/rankings? Herd, you disappoint me. You're really that insecure about NDSU's accomplishment that you feel the need to denegrate the achievements of others? An O-for-season in the Summit leaves you at home. Only the top 8 make the tournament. The path as an 8 seed is daunting, that's why the #1 seed is so important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moser53 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 In my opinion (notice I said opinion, wouldn't want to offend someone regarding their bball IQ), that team beats NDSU. Vonesh vs. Moorman (UND, not even close. UCLA, come on!!) Rico vs. Woodside (NDSU, but Rico could guard him) Gulseth vs. Winkleman (push, if I had to pick one, Gully. LSU ring a bell) Jacobson vs. Nelson (Nelson. Great player) Gardner vs. Tveidt (tough matchup for both. Neither can guard the other but lay ups are better than 3's. Gardner) there you go. UND wins..............68-65. That game would have been a good matchup. The SU team 2 years ago would have been tougher matchup for the Sioux when they had Andre Smith [ I may have the name wrong] on the inside for SU. When he played for SU is when they pulled off all there upsets. They havn't been able to replace him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petey23 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The autobids and the chip and a chair shot of the underdogs is what makes the NCAA tourney so great to watch especially when you take into account that there are no less than 20 teams and argueably as many as 25 or 26 teams in college basketball playing tonight and tomorrow night that are better than 15 teams in the "Dance" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petey23 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Not arguing with Vonesh's stats, but I was at UND during his years and the posts he played against were mostly stiffs. I'm not saying Moormann is a stud, but he is very solid defensively and is fairly athletic. He should average more than 4 boards a game no doubt. The athleticism from just the old NCC to the Summitt is huge. Did you see the 4 and 5 that Oakland put on the floor? Decent BB player and great athletes. Vonesh would've struggled against that type of competition night in and night out. A 6'9" who can't jump and with little athletic skill doesn't go far in D1 in any conference. It would have been an interesting matchup as Rico could guard anyone and NDSU doesn't really have the type of player that Vonesh struggled against(Think Virginia Union..if I recall they had 4 or 5 guys who were athletic and active all over the court and quick to double the post and help out). As much as I hate to say it, this NDSU team would have been a real tough matchupup for the 1991 Sioux. UND didn't have the outside shooters needed, if you could of held Boschee back a year and had Todd Johnson on this team then it could have been a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Larry Bird couldn't jump either. It's how you play. Using Larry Bird and Dave Vonesh in the same conversation? Now that's just silly talk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 This refers to the DII Basketball Tournament, but two time Sioux opponent from this season Southwest Minnesota St. has advanced to the Elite 8. Bracket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringDeanBack Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 You said the best in your first post. Vonesh, Gulseth, Robertson, Gardner, Rico Burkett, Mike Boschee, Ben Jacobson would not lose 4 out of 5 to this Bison team. You are on crack if you really believe that. This SU team has no one to guard Gully or Vonesh. UND in 6 games, easy!!! You can't be serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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