The Writing is on the Wall

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I wish they would dispense with all of the posturing, pandering and ass-kissing leading up to the final result: the retirement of the name and logo. Get it over with, and let the chips fall accordingly.

Don't forget that this long, drawn-out period of

EVERYONE

getting in their share of posturing, hyperbole, etc. is necessary for one reason and one reason

only

: these people are going to make a politically unpopular decision. They want to make it appear that they're actually doing what the people want done here, instead of caving to a small minority of perpetually dissatisfied whiners.

They want you to know how much they absolutely agonized over doing this, they didn't want to do it, their hands were forced, etc.

The truth is they want to get it done ASAP and get back to their sleepy little meetings which are little more than an excuse to get together for cocktails. Retched "controversies" are not what they signed up for: they were told that they'd get good publicity and a little extra blurb for their resumes for a short, perfunctory meeting or two.

See the load about "uniting a divided campus" referenced above for further proof.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

For what it is worth, it was stated numerous times that there is no financial agreement between FSU and the Seminole Nation.

I don't know anyone who has stated that there is no financial agreement between FSU and the Seminole tribe. Quite to the contrary, it has become almost a given that there

IS

a financial arrangement, based on numerous, numerous references.

OTOH, finding proof of that arrangement on the internet wasn't as easy as I thought it was. Its kind of like going to the net and looking for citations proving that the Earth is round and not flat.

Here's the one thing I found so far: while it has the appearance of a blog, it was posted by the newspaper's editorial staff:

...the Seminole Tribe of Florida, which for a half-century has had an amicable and profitable relationship with Florida State University. In June, the tribal council endorsed FSU's use of the Seminoles' name.

The tribe gets royalties from merchandise sales

, and the deal includes scholarships and courses on Seminole history.

(emphasis mine)

http://g2.palmbeachpost.com/blogs/content/...su_be_semi.html

And FWIW, there are also any number of Native American-aligned websites that talk about the idea that the Seminoles get royalties from merchandise.

[mksioux]

The plan is in place.

I have no illusions that the nickname will be saved, but I think this action was required. I'm sure I'll take heat for this, but I think Duane Espegard showed real leadership here. You can't make a settlement with the NCAA that gives you three years to gave tribe approval, and then rely on Goetz to make one half-assed attempt to approach the tribes, and then change the name. Despite what you think of the settlement, given what it was, the Board is responsible for making an honest effort to give the tribes one last chance to get on board. It appears the Board is finally doing what it was supposed to do.

If the tribes reject a delegation made up of the highest ranking officials in the State (assuming those high-ranking officials agree to be on the delegation), then the tribes will have absolutely no excuses. The last thing I would want to see is the Sioux nickname dropped only to have disingenous tribal officials later say they were open to negotiating if the State of North Dakota would have sent a high ranking delegation.

[ScottM]

The last thing I would want to see is the Sioux nickname dropped only to have disingenous tribal officials later say they were open to negotiating if the State of North Dakota would have sent a high ranking delegation.

But that's exactly what will happen. When being a perpetual "victim" is determined to be a sound business model, you don't want to give that up no matter how "successful" you become. That "high ranking delegation" should have consisted of Colin Powell, Tina Fey as Sarah Palin, the Pope, Chris Rock and Britney Spears.

[GeauxSioux]

and Joe the Plumber.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

When being a perpetual "victim" is determined to be a sound business model, you don't want to give that up no matter how "successful" you become.

It's JMHO, but I think that plenty of high ranking people in your state don't want to have anything to do with this; because they know it will be a waste of time and all they'll do is listen to the nonsensical bleating of people who feel that linking smallpox blankets to a 2008 hockey team somehow gives them a momentary sense of power (and who won't understand when they fade right back into oblivion in 2011-2012). Reasonable political and business leaders in North Dakota won't want to lend their reputations to this charade; nor will they be willing spend even a second of the short time they have on this Earth listening to truly miserable, pathetic people.

I think you'll get some retired Board members and some people from the Alumni Association and that will be about it.

[Fetch]

Fighting Tribe - the Ralph will never change - case closed - tribe is not exclusive to Native Americans

[darell1976]

Fighting Tribe - the Ralph will never change - case closed - tribe is not exclusive to Native Americans

Doesn't William and Mary have the nickname Tribe?? All they told them to do is get rid of the feathers in their logo?

[Sioux Fan in Sioux Falls]

The original complaint regarding this whole name issue is that it was thought to be (per the NCAA) "Hostile and Abusive". So I'm having a hard time understanding that if the tribes develop a proposal that includes payment (i.e. from marketing royalties) for the usage of the Sioux name & logo, how does that make it less "hostile and abusive"?

[GeauxSioux]

Lawyer disregards American Indians in statement on UND nickname

The vote basically says a committee to negotiate will be appointed within two months to meet at least twice in 2009 with tribal leaders. If acceptance is not obtained by the end of 2009, then plans will begin in January 2010 to retire the name and logo. But, negotiations can continue until the Nov. 30, 2010, deadline.

I've never been much of a prognosticator. But here's a prediction I'd bet money on. Negotiations will go down to the wire. The offer will start small, but the pot will get sweeter as time goes by. Someone will ride in on a white horse, of course wearing a cowboy hat, at the last minute. The temptation of a new offer will likely be too much to refuse. And the UND Fighting Sioux hockey team will win the NCAA championship.

This, however, is what should happen, with random but much earlier deadlines. Tribal leaders should be presented a "last, final, best offer" by, say, March 1, 2009. They should approve or reject it by June 1, 2009. Then we should all move forward with what needs to be done.

[Yote 53]

I've always been a supporter of UND keeping the Sioux name but I have to wonder how much damage this fight to keep the name is really doing to UND. Honestly, I don't see this problem ever going away. Not to compound things, but while UND is dealing with fighting to keep the name, as well as the transition to D1, what effect is this name controversy going to have on UND finding conference affiliation? Is a conference going to want to admit UND while you are in the midst of this?

[Stromer]

I've always been a supporter of UND keeping the Sioux name but I have to wonder how much damage this fight to keep the name is really doing to UND. Honestly, I don't see this problem ever going away. Not to compound things, but while UND is dealing with fighting to keep the name, as well as the transition to D1, what effect is this name controversy going to have on UND finding conference affiliation? Is a conference going to want to admit UND while you are in the midst of this?

I just don't see why it would be an issue. If eventually UND needs to change either the name or logo or what not, it is an issue between UND and the NCAA. It shouldn't matter to a conference what one of their members names is. And i doubt they will get bad press for allowing UND into a conference. The noise made by the PC people on this issue isn't very large. Without the NCAA supporting this nonsense, this wouldn't even be an issue.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Is a conference going to want to admit UND while you are in the midst of this?

Will a school sell tickets? Will they contribute to our TV package? Are they going to contribute to a bigger pie for all, or simply take another piece out of our existing pie?

Those are the questions a conference office (and conference members) will ask IMHO. And if you have any questions about movable morality, ask Iowa and Wisconsin. They'll give you all the answers you need.

[Goon]

Will a school sell tickets? Will they contribute to our TV package? Are they going to contribute to a bigger pie for all, or simply take another piece out of our existing pie?

Those are the questions a conference office (and conference members) will ask IMHO. And if you have any questions about movable morality, ask Iowa and Wisconsin. They'll give you all the answers you need.

Isn't the big sky still looking at UND? Also, Wisconsin proved that their logo/mascott rule was a farce as they could have declined to play FSU in their Bowl game if they were so opposed to FSU's logo. Of course they didn't. The all mighty dollars speaks.

[Riverman]

Isn't the big sky still looking at UND? Also, Wisconsin proved that their logo/mascott rule was a farce as they could have declined to play FSU in their Bowl game if they were so opposed to FSU's logo. Of course they didn't. The all mighty dollars speaks.

Not to mention a basketball game in which Wisconsin played FSU.

Last time I checked FSU was not in the Big10.

[Goon]

Not to mention a basketball game in which Wisconsin played FSU.

Last time I checked FSU was not in the Big10.

Yeah good point.

[Riverman]

Is it me or does it seem just about everyone in retail is selling something with the Sioux logo on it.

What does it all mean?

A. UND is flooding the market with Sioux items because the logo is going away.

B. To show what logo and merchandise money means to UND and parties of interest and

what it could mean to future programs UND might not be able to afford if the logo is to be replaced.

It just seems strange that when I go to Walmart in Grand Forks that there is almost as many items there

as the Sioux Shop at the REA.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Is it me or does it seem just about everyone in retail is selling something with the Sioux logo on it.

What does it all mean?...

It's JMHO but it could mean that in these tough economic times, stores are devoting floor space to tried-and-true sellers with local appeal. There's no need for your stores to take a chance on purchasing Seattle Mariners hats when there's far more support (and demand) for the local schools. At this time the risk/reward equation is definitely tilted towards "safe".

...Wisconsin proved that their logo/mascot rule was a farce as they could have declined to play FSU in their Bowl game if they were so opposed to FSU's logo.

Not to mention a basketball game in which Wisconsin played FSU.

Right about now I'd say plenty of Wisconsin people wished that the school had stayed true to its word and refused to play FSU in the bowl game.

But of course, if Wisconsin had attempted to go all high and mighty, someone else would have stepped in (probably Northwestern in this case) and taken a nice New Year's trip to Florida. The players on Wisconsin who are from Florida would have understood that they were taking a stand on principle, right? Same thing for their retired alums down there in the Sun Belt. And ESPN would have remembered that Wisconsin turned down the opportunity to help garner ratings and pay for that fat ESPN contract. And Wisconsin's conference bretheren would remember that their high and mighty attitude had cost us money. And they'd suddenly get a lot of 11:00 am games for football and midweek games for basketball.

And AFAIK, the basketball Badgers played FSU in the Big Ten/ACC Challenge. It would have certainly been

MUCH

easier for Wisconsin to speak up here about their ethical code of conduct, yet they didn't. All that it would have meant here was that Wisconsin itself would have probably suffered in terms of a strength of schedule component for possible seeding into the Big Dance, plus a lesser game (or no game at all) on ESPN. And they'd have to answer to the calls that they were ducking the Seminoles. A few extra questions from reporters for the basketball coach, a few extra questions from recruits about their schedule and that's that.

This is exactly what I meant when I wrote about "movable morality". Their code of ethics certainly appears solid and immutable when it's in a leather-bound volume on some desk in the Equal Opportunity office. In practice, its not worth the paper its printed on. And if you want to know about Wisconsin's ethics and truthfulness when it comes to being PC, I believe the story about how they Photoshopped a picture in their recruiting brochure is still available on the internet. That will tell you all you need to know about their ethics and honesty.

[GeauxSioux]

Brett Kreis, Grand Forks, letter: Accept reality of nickname's fate

We don

[GeauxSioux]

Confirmation panel grills Haugen

A Senate confirmation committee pulled no punches in grilling state Board of Higher Education member Michael Haugen on Tuesday.

Though Gov. John Hoeven appointed Haugen to the board of as last July, he still must be confirmed by the state Senate.

Lyson also asked Haugen about the University of North Dakota Sioux nickname controversy.

Haugen said the board and university have to get moving on dropping the name because it’s an issue it can’t win and the process of replacing branding on uniforms, buildings and so on will take up to a year.

“I believe it’s time to move on,” he said.

Here come your University of North Dakota Ghost Riders.

[Bison Dan]

Confirmation panel grills HaugenHere come your University of North Dakota Ghost Riders.

How do you think the churches will like "Ghost Riders"?

[dagies]

How do you think the churches will like "Ghost Riders"?

I don't think they're that touchy.

[The Sicatoka]

Dare I say ...

"The Father, The Son, and the Holy ... Ghost."

Yeah, old school Catholic, but just the same. I think that's your "churches" answer.

[ScottM]

Dare I say ...

"The Father, The Son, and the Holy ... Ghost."

Yeah, old school Catholic, but just the same. I think that's your "churches" answer.

Cue the ACLU bringing an "Establishment" claim in 3 ... 2 ...

[dagies]

Dare I say ...

"The Father, The Son, and the Holy ... Ghost."

Yeah, old school Catholic, but just the same. I think that's your "churches" answer.

I am also, but I can't see people getting worked up about Ghost Riders because they are religious. Ghost is used in many ways not related to religious connotations.