Best colleges

[Oxbow6]

Thought this was interesting. In the fall of 2007, UND accepted 70% of incoming applications. NDSU accepted 85%! My question is everyone here in Fargo is beating their chests that NDSU has a bigger enrollment, but at the sake of accepting a lesser quality student? Proceed...

[SiouxCrioux1]

Thought this was interesting. In the fall of 2007, UND accepted 70% of incoming applications. NDSU accepted 85%! My question is everyone here in Fargo is beating their chests that NDSU has a bigger enrollment, but at the sake of accepting a lesser quality student? Proceed...

Ive always said that a bigger enrollment has nothing to do with the quality of the school. Thanks for posting this.

[Bison Dan]

Thought this was interesting. In the fall of 2007, UND accepted 70% of incoming applications. NDSU accepted 85%! My question is everyone here in Fargo is beating their chests that NDSU has a bigger enrollment, but at the sake of accepting a lesser quality student? Proceed...

Actually all it says is NDSU attracts a better quality HS student from the start.

[redwing77]

Actually all it says is NDSU attracts a better quality HS student from the start.

Aside from all the inane NDSU vs UND pissing match that usually and will erupt in this thread, my question to you is this:

How does acceptance rates (via percentage) translate into High School students' motivations to choose between schools?

It could mean that NDSU's acceptance policy is far more lax than UND's.

It could mean that UND is too picky or the enrollment process is seen as too cumbersome and stressful for some qualified applicants.

It could mean that, statistically, NDSU just lets more students in than UND.

I don't see where the quality of the students themselves are represented in this statistic.

[Oxbow6]

Actually all it says is NDSU attracts a better quality HS student from the start.

I'd like to meet you face to face to see what a really stupid person looks like! Nice spin. No, what this probably says is that NDSU, based on the numbers, takes a lower quality of student to reach it's enrollment goals. If UND and NDSU have roughly the same number of incoming students, which I thinks is safe to say, and NDSU accepts 15% more applicants this statistically makes your reasoning invalid. You are a piece of work, Dano! And if you want me to draw you a picture, a simple bell curve statistics graph would be easy for you to understand.

[redwing77]

hence it begins....

[Oxbow6]

hence it begins....

But it is kind of fun.

[Bison Dan]

I'd like to meet you face to face to see what a really stupid person looks like! Nice spin. No, what this probably says is that NDSU, based on the numbers, takes a lower quality of student to reach it's enrollment goals. If UND and NDSU have roughly the same number of incoming students, which I thinks is safe to say, and NDSU accepts 15% more applicants this statistically makes your reasoning invalid. You are a piece of work, Dano! And if you want me to draw you a picture, a simple bell curve statistics graph would be easy for you to understand.

Name calling again? Just reported this week - Incoming ND HS student preference for college - NDSU 17% - UND 13%

[Bison Dan]

Aside from all the inane NDSU vs UND pissing match that usually and will erupt in this thread, my question to you is this:

How does acceptance rates (via percentage) translate into High School students' motivations to choose between schools?

It could mean that NDSU's acceptance policy is far more lax than UND's.

It could mean that UND is too picky or the enrollment process is seen as too cumbersome and stressful for some qualified applicants.

It could mean that, statistically, NDSU just lets more students in than UND.

I don't see where the quality of the students themselves are represented in this statistic.

Does it include the law and medical school. If it does then the statistic is meaningless as I'm sure they have different admission standards and alot of students wanting to get into law or medical schools.

[Hansel]

No, what this probably says is that NDSU, based on the numbers, takes a lower quality of student to reach it's enrollment goals. If UND and NDSU have roughly the same number of incoming students, which I thinks is safe to say, and NDSU accepts 15% more applicants this statistically makes your reasoning invalid.

The ACT scores and GPA's for incoming freshmen at NDSU and UND are identical.

[redwing77]

Name calling again? Just reported this week - Incoming ND HS student preference for college - NDSU 17% - UND 13%

Who was asked? Where is the sample base located?

Much like every statistic ever made, it can be twisted any way you like.

I'm sure if I asked a sample size identical in different areas than this one, I could get UND's % higher than NDSU's.

[Bison Dan]

Who was asked? Where is the sample base located?

Much like every statistic ever made, it can be twisted any way you like.

I'm sure if I asked a sample size identical in different areas than this one, I could get UND's % higher than NDSU's.

This is what was reported in the Jamestown Sun - the link is no longer any good.

The ACT college entrance exam for the high school class of 2008 shows 24 percent of the 6,113 North Dakota test-takers met the college-readiness benchmark score in all four areas: English, math, reading and science. That compared with 22 percent nationally.

North Dakota State University in Fargo was the university of choice for 17.5 percent of the students, while 13.8 percent named the University of North Dakota in Grand Forks. Bismarck State, the next highest, was listed first by 9.6 percent of test-takers.

http://www.jamestownsun.com/ap/index...w&id=D92HK2202

[ScottM]

"Numbers are like people, if you torture them long enough, they'll tell you anything." -Mark Twain(?)

That being said, it's an irrefutable fact that the smarter, sexier and more attractive types go to UND, while the inbred, slack jawed sheep-lovers settle for 'su.

[Oxbow6]

Harvard was rated the #1 university in the nation. There they accepted 9%, yes just 9%, of incoming apps. According then to Bison Dan's theory, Harvard gets a lower "class" of student then UND, which gets an even "lower" type student then NDSU. Because the higher % of apps. accepted means you have a greater number of "top" students applying. Ah, the wonderful world of reasoning via Bison Dan? Bottom line, ask any admissions director at any college, the lower your acceptance % means you have a larger, better qualified application pool. You think Bismarck State gets a "higher" qualified student pool then NDSU. No, and you could probably count on two hands the number of applicants they turn away per year.

[Bison Dan]

Harvard was rated the #1 university in the nation. There they accepted 9%, yes just 9%, of incoming apps. According then to Bison Dan's theory, Harvard gets a lower "class" of student then UND, which gets an even "lower" type student then NDSU. Because the higher % of apps. accepted means you have a greater number of "top" students applying. Ah, the wonderful world of reasoning via Bison Dan? Bottom line, ask any admissions director at any college, the lower your acceptance % means you have a larger, better qualified application pool. You think Bismarck State gets a "higher" qualified student pool then NDSU. No, and you could probably count on two hands the number of applicants they turn away per year.

It's all apples and oranges anyway - It all depends on what kind of academic fields the university offers. Some are more restrictive than others for a variety of reasons. Like I said before if it includes the law and medical school then the statistic is meaningless.

Don't you find this statistic more interesting anyway?

North Dakota State University in Fargo was the university of choice for 17.5 percent of the students, while 13.8 percent named the University of North Dakota in Grand Forks. Bismarck State, the next highest, was listed first by 9.6 percent of test-takers.

http://www.jamestownsun.com/ap/index...w&id=D92HK2202

[Oxbow6]

It's all apples and oranges anyway - It all depends on what kind of academic fields the university offers. Some are more restrictive than others for a variety of reasons. Like I said before if it includes the law and medical school then the statistic is meaningless.

Don't you find this statistic more interesting anyway?

North Dakota State University in Fargo was the university of choice for 17.5 percent of the students, while 13.8 percent named the University of North Dakota in Grand Forks. Bismarck State, the next highest, was listed first by 9.6 percent of test-takers.

1) The article was about undergrad admissions only.

2) I do find that intersting and it actually suprisesd me a little.

3) But doesn't get back to my original point to start this thread. The last 15% of applicants accepted at SU (again 85% to 70%) from a mean deviation standpoint have to be lower qualified student from a similar app. pool.

4) The article also shows that the undergrad population total is with 20 students, if my memory serves me correctly. between the 2 schools with compareible average GPAs and ACTs from it's app. pool.

NDSU has grown, but don't think they haven't grown without taking students that they probably wouldn't have taken 5-10-20 years ago from a qualification standpoint. You just can't twist the numbers to say they haven't and don't.

[Bison Dan]

1) The article was about undergrad admissions only.

2) I do find that intersting and it actually suprisesd me a little.

3) But doesn't get back to my original point to start this thread. The last 15% of applicants accepted at SU (again 85% to 70%) from a mean deviation standpoint have to be lower qualified student from a similar app. pool.

4) The article also shows that the undergrad population total is with 20 students, if my memory serves me correctly. between the 2 schools with compareible average GPAs and ACTs from it's app. pool.

NDSU has grown, but don't think they haven't grown without taking students that they probably wouldn't have taken 5-10-20 years ago from a qualification standpoint. You just can't twist the numbers to say they haven't and don't.

How do you square as Hansel has said that the ACT scores and GPA's for incoming freshmen at NDSU and UND are identical? If true then it comes down to what I said before - UND offers some very restrictive fields like "physical therapy" that get a ton of applications but only has room for a limited number. Like I said apples and oranges.

[The Sicatoka]

John Calvert can sometimes be a real crabbly-crank when he writes for The Forum, but sometimes he's dead on right.

Two or three times each year, the colleges announce, with great joy, that enrollments have once again broken records. In academia nothing is so highly prized as sheer, raw growth

[Sioux-cia]

....and the door slowly closes behind him.

[LuvHockey]

It is not UND vs NDSU, but still on topic to this thread...

How about this press release (yet to be picked up in local papers):

In rankings released Aug. 22, the U.S. News and World Report edition of "Best Colleges 2009" includes Jamestown College as one of the top tier baccalaureate colleges in the Midwest region. Jamestown College is again the only North Dakota college or university to achieve top-tier status in their rankings.

The U.S. News "Best Colleges" is the most recognized and popular of all college rankings. The report evaluates colleges and universities annually by assessing criteria such as peer assessment, graduation rate, student/faculty ratios, class size and student testing scores.

"For the second time, Jamestown College has been ranked in the top tier category; once again, we are the only college or university in North Dakota to achieve such a distinction," says Jamestown College President Robert S. Badal. "We have always been known for the quality of our academic experience and for the success of our graduates, and this honor reinforces that reputation."

In addition to being named to "2009 Best Colleges" by U.S. News and World Report, Jamestown College has recently been named a "Best in the Midwest" college once again by Princeton Review.

[Ranger]

It is not UND vs NDSU, but still on topic to this thread...

How about this press release (yet to be picked up in local papers):

In rankings released Aug. 22, the U.S. News and World Report edition of "Best Colleges 2009" includes Jamestown College as one of the top tier baccalaureate colleges in the Midwest region. Jamestown College is again the only North Dakota college or university to achieve top-tier status in their rankings.

The U.S. News "Best Colleges" is the most recognized and popular of all college rankings. The report evaluates colleges and universities annually by assessing criteria such as peer assessment, graduation rate, student/faculty ratios, class size and student testing scores.

"For the second time, Jamestown College has been ranked in the top tier category; once again, we are the only college or university in North Dakota to achieve such a distinction," says Jamestown College President Robert S. Badal. "We have always been known for the quality of our academic experience and for the success of our graduates, and this honor reinforces that reputation."

In addition to being named to "2009 Best Colleges" by U.S. News and World Report, Jamestown College has recently been named a "Best in the Midwest" college once again by Princeton Review.

NDSU and UND were evaluated in the National University category... not the Midwest region category. Badal's statement is correct, but inaccurate, or something like that?

[Hammersmith]

Awww, somebody must want me to post more.

These are facts:

(Fall 2007 / 5 year average; 'students' refers to first-fime, first-year students only)

Students that apply and are admitted:

UND: 70%/72%

NDSU: 85%/90%

Students that are admitted who enroll:

UND: 70%/71%

NDSU: 58%/60%

Students who return for a second year:

UND: 75%/76%

NDSU: 82%/79%

Six-year graduation rates:

UND: 54%/54%

NDSU: 50%/52%

High School GPA of enrolled students:

UND: 3.36/3.37

NDSU: 3.39/3.37

ACT Composite scores of enrolled students:

25th Percentile

UND: 21/20

NDSU: 20/20

75th Percentile

UND: 26/26

NDSU: 25/26

ACT Composite score breakdowns:

30-36

UND: 5%/5%

NDSU: 7%/7%

24-29

UND: 36%/36%

NDSU: 38%/37%

18-23

UND: 55%/55%

NDSU: 50%/51%

12-17

UND: 4%/4%

NDSU: 5%/6%

First-choice university percentages of students taking the ACT in North Dakota: (2008/4-year average)

UND: 13.8%/15.8%

NDSU: 17.5%/17.0%

Any-choice university percentages of students taking the ACT in North Dakota:

UND: 41.3%/45.3%

NDSU: 46.5%/46.8%

[Hammersmith]

This is analysis:

There are three groups of students in the first part of the above staistics: those that apply, those that are admitted, and those who enroll. Any discussion about the qualities of the first two groups at either institution is absolutely worthless. The only thing we know about those groups is their size. We can come to some conclusions about the third group because of the additional data.

NDSU has a mild edge in student retention, while UND has a very small lead in graduation rates. NDSU has an advantage in high school GPA, but it's also very small. There are no strong trends in any of these stats.

Most of the differences in the 25/75 percentile breakdown come from rounding errors. Any gap is rarely more than half a point, and the tiny leads change almost yearly. The score breakdowns are kind of interesting to look at, but they don't mean that much. NDSU has a few more students that score on the higher and lower ends, while UND students have a slightly increased tendancy for scores in the 18-23 range.

The only strong trend in the stats is in final two categories. In both cases NDSU has stayed very constant, but fewer North Dakota students list UND as a choice(first or otherwise) each year. UND has lost 4.0% in first-choice selection and 7.3% in any-choice over the last four years.

Anything beyond these points is unsubstantiated spin. Some have said that NDSU must accept lesser quality students because of the first set of numbers. The GPA, ACT, and retention numbers don't back that up. I could say that reason NDSU accepts more of its applicants is because NDSU attracts a higher quality of student. UND has to reject more applicants because it attracts sub-standard students. I don't believe that, but the data can point in that direction just as easily as the other. Without detailed information about the applicant and accepted groups, no conclusions can be reached in those areas.

The data comes from the Common Data Sets(2003-2007) available on each schools' websites and the State Profile Reports available from ACT.

UND's 2003-04 CDS Report(.pdf)

UND's 2004-05 CDS Report(.pdf)

UND's 2005-06 CDS Report(.pdf)

UND's 2006-07 CDS Report(.pdf)

UND's 2007-08 CDS Report(.xls)

NDSU's 2003-04 CDS Report

NDSU's 2004-05 CDS Report

NDSU's 2005-06 CDS Report

NDSU's 2006-07 CDS Report

NDSU's 2007-08 CDS Report

North Dakota's 2005 ACT Profile(.pdf)

North Dakota's 2006 ACT Profile(.pdf)

North Dakota's 2007 ACT Profile(.pdf)

North Dakota's 2008 ACT Profile(.pdf)

[TheBisonator]

And Hammersmith delivers the knockout punch...

[ScottM]

And Hammersmith delivers the knockout punch...

What "knockout punch"? He damn near calls the entire thing a draw based on objective data.