DI Baseball just got more costly

[The Sicatoka]

From: http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=63797

... Division I baseball teams must offer a minimum 25 percent financial aid package to new signees beginning this spring.

That could make things difficult for UND, which currently distributes the equivalent of three scholarships among its players. The 25 percent minimum requirement was implemented to try and discourage the number of player transfers in the sport.

Baseball players also must maintain eligibility in the fall to play in the spring, and they'll have to sit out a year if they transfer to another school.

In addition, baseball teams will be limited to a maximum of 35 players.

So they've effectively raised the scholarship minimum (mandatory 25% offers), added the "transfer and sit" rule (like FB, BB, and hockey), and capped rosters.

With a 35 man roster you figure 7 or 8 recruits every year. If each guy has to get a 25% offer that's about 2 full scholarships for a program that only has 3. How's that going to work?

[Bison Dan]

From: http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=63797

So they've effectively raised the scholarship minimum (mandatory 25% offers), added the "transfer and sit" rule (like FB, BB, and hockey), and capped rosters.

With a 35 man roster you figure 7 or 8 recruits every year. If each guy has to get a 25% offer that's about 2 full scholarships for a program that only has 3. How's that going to work?

I thought that I read somewhere in siouxsports.com that UND was thinking of dropping Baseball. You still need a coach if not and will have to up your scholarships. I think DI baseball has 15 Max scholarships.

[bincitysioux]

Baseball is dead weight at UND.

[Stromer]

Baseball is dead weight at UND.

I agree. That money can go towards a sport that would maybe actually draw crowds. I can't remember which poster is on the lacrosse bandwagon but thats the route to go.

[MplsBison]

Baseball is dead weight at UND.

Wisconsin, Iowa State, Colorado State, Montana, Montana State.

None of them have baseball.

It makes sense.

[MplsBison]

So they've effectively raised the scholarship minimum (mandatory 25% offers), added the "transfer and sit" rule (like FB, BB, and hockey), and capped rosters.

With a 35 man roster you figure 7 or 8 recruits every year. If each guy has to get a 25% offer that's about 2 full scholarships for a program that only has 3. How's that going to work?

No.

They're saying that IF you offer a scholarship to a baseball player, it has to be at least 1/4 full. You can't give the guy 100 bucks a year.

[dakotadan]

I agree. That money can go towards a sport that would maybe actually draw crowds.

The thing about baseball (or any minor sport for that matter) is that no major decision such as dropping it would ever happen before UND knows their conference situation. It would be disappointing to upset alumni, donors, etc and go through the trouble of dropping the program just to have a conference tell us that we will gain membership but only after we add a baseball program. Only after we have gained membership in a conference, know which sports will be mandatory and received a guarantee from that conference that dropping a sport wouldn't be a deal breaker would the school even begin to consider it.

However, I don't see UND going that route for a long, long time. The athletic department will give all of the programs a chance to grow in DI before dropping a sport even crosses their minds. That is not what the move to DI is about.

[siouxrunner]

I agree. That money can go towards a sport that would maybe actually draw crowds. I can't remember which poster is on the lacrosse bandwagon but thats the route to go.

Using your logic, we would also be well advised to drop women's softball, both golf teams, women's tennis, men's and women's cross country, men's and women's track, men's and women's swimming/diving, and maybe even women's volleyball. None of them draw "crowds" either. We'll keep football, basketball, and hockey.

I think you can see where I'm going with this...it is not the goal or objective of every athletic team at UND to make money and draw big crowds. Sport diversity within the athletic department is important. Maybe baseball no longer fits in with Sioux athletics when we leave division II, but don't make the mistake of assuming it should be dropped just because they can't bring in crowds the way the basketball or football teams do.

[bincitysioux]

Using your logic, we would also be well advised to drop women's softball, both golf teams, women's tennis, men's and women's cross country, men's and women's track, men's and women's swimming/diving, and maybe even women's volleyball. None of them draw "crowds" either. We'll keep football, basketball, and hockey.

I think you can see where I'm going with this...it is not the goal or objective of every athletic team at UND to make money and draw big crowds. Sport diversity within the athletic department is important. Maybe baseball no longer fits in with Sioux athletics when we leave division II, but don't make the mistake of assuming it should be dropped just because they can't bring in crowds the way the basketball or football teams do.

The somewhat limited support for Lacrosse (mine included) arguing that it could "bring in crowds", just means that it could generate some sort of revenue. Not hockey, or football, or basketball revenue, but just some sort of revenue. Baseball generates no revenue at all. In this climate, we are lucky if we can have 15-20% of our games at home, and that might even be optimistic. The North Dakota environment does not entice very many quality baseball players to want come here where they can't swing a bat outside year-round, hence we will rarely be very competetive. Nobody suggested dropping a whole bunch of the non-revenue sports. They and the student-athletes that participate in them all have their place, and UND has thrived in many of them such as Swimming & Diving, Women's tennis, women's golf, and track & field to an extent. But baseball generates zero-buzz, zero-interest, zero-revenue, and realistically can have zero-success in this state/climate. Money would be better spent toward an entirely different men's program, or simply cut it, and invest those funds into existing women's programs and/or other non-revenue sports, regardless of gender.

[Shawn-O]

We need a basketball conference, and that's what it boils down to as far as I'm concerned. If the Summit comes calling and we need a baseball program to make it happen, keep the program. If the Big Sky changes their mind and invites UND, dump baseball. Whatever portfolio of sports is needed to get into a conference for men's and women's basketball...do what it takes.

[Stromer]

The somewhat limited support for Lacrosse (mine included) arguing that it could "bring in crowds", just means that it could generate some sort of revenue. Not hockey, or football, or basketball revenue, but just some sort of revenue. Baseball generates no revenue at all. In this climate, we are lucky if we can have 15-20% of our games at home, and that might even be optimistic. The North Dakota environment does not entice very many quality baseball players to want come here where they can't swing a bat outside year-round, hence we will rarely be very competetive. Nobody suggested dropping a whole bunch of the non-revenue sports. They and the student-athletes that participate in them all have their place, and UND has thrived in many of them such as Swimming & Diving, Women's tennis, women's golf, and track & field to an extent. But baseball generates zero-buzz, zero-interest, zero-revenue, and realistically can have zero-success in this state/climate. Money would be better spent toward an entirely different men's program, or simply cut it, and invest those funds into existing women's programs and/or other non-revenue sports, regardless of gender.

You said exactly what I meant by my comments. Non revenue sports have their place but it seems like baseball has zero interest by the public and the weather is also a factor. Baseball shouldn't even be included in non-revenue sports because it is a big draw at other universities. I am all for non revenue sports but I feel the money spent on baseball could be spent on something like lacrosse or we could make mens soccer a university team. I think that money could have a better use that brings in some crowds and is still a smaller sport.

Edit: I also agree with Shawn-O that we keep it until we know what conference we will be in and which sports we need.

[The Walrus]

The somewhat limited support for Lacrosse (mine included) arguing that it could "bring in crowds", just means that it could generate some sort of revenue. Not hockey, or football, or basketball revenue, but just some sort of revenue. Baseball generates no revenue at all. In this climate, we are lucky if we can have 15-20% of our games at home, and that might even be optimistic. The North Dakota environment does not entice very many quality baseball players to want come here where they can't swing a bat outside year-round, hence we will rarely be very competetive. Nobody suggested dropping a whole bunch of the non-revenue sports. They and the student-athletes that participate in them all have their place, and UND has thrived in many of them such as Swimming & Diving, Women's tennis, women's golf, and track & field to an extent. But baseball generates zero-buzz, zero-interest, zero-revenue, and realistically can have zero-success in this state/climate. Money would be better spent toward an entirely different men's program, or simply cut it, and invest those funds into existing women's programs and/or other non-revenue sports, regardless of gender.

Baseball has alway been somewhat or close to a self-sufficent sport. They may get what 3 scholarships, but have had as many as 60 student athletes (enrollment..?) come here to go out and try and make the team and play for UND. These young student athletes have cleaned arenas, sold consessions, worked as a UND labor force at times, held fund raisers, contributed to the Grand Forks community and helped with GF youth baseball immensely.

To say there is zero interest is wrong, UND's most famous alum is more likely to support baseball at UND then the other sport he played basketball. If the move to the almighty D1 is gong to cost us some of the sports such as Golf, Softball, Baseball, Track, Tennis, if the fund raising is not there, then we should have not made the move in the 1st place.

People would be surprised to know that other than Hockey (not sure about this now with REA), I am not sure any sport could be considered revenue producing....? Sometime add up the cost of Salaries, Rental of Facilities, Travel, Scholarships, Equipment ect, and weigh that as to what Revenue they make in regards to Attendance none of them make UND any money.

If the NCAA is going to mandate this 25% rule, raise the money, or go scholarship free and compete other schools do it, with only 3 schollies we were close to that anyway.

P.S. Is baseball not America's pasttime...?

[petey23]

Baseball has alway been somewhat or close to a self-sufficent sport. They may get what 3 scholarships, but have had as many as 60 student athletes (enrollment..?) come here to go out and try and make the team and play for UND. These young student athletes have cleaned arenas, sold consessions, worked as a UND labor force at times, held fund raisers, contributed to the Grand Forks community and helped with GF youth baseball immensely.

To say there is zero interest is wrong, UND's most famous alum is more likely to support baseball at UND then the other sport he played basketball. If the move to the almighty D1 is gong to cost us some of the sports such as Golf, Softball, Baseball, Track, Tennis, if the fund raising is not there, then we should have not made the move in the 1st place.

People would be surprised to know that other than Hockey (not sure about this now with REA), I am not sure any sport could be considered revenue producing....? Sometime add up the cost of Salaries, Rental of Facilities, Travel, Scholarships, Equipment ect, and weigh that as to what Revenue they make in regards to Attendance none of them make UND any money.

If the NCAA is going to mandate this 25% rule, raise the money, or go scholarship free and compete other schools do it, with only 3 schollies we were close to that anyway.

P.S. Is baseball not America's pasttime...?

Amen!

[bincitysioux]

Dropping baseball would go a long way toward keeping things balanced Title IX wise as well once we start ramping up football scholarships as well.

Trying to field a college baseball team in this climate in which the bulk of the the season is played in March and April is a wasted effort IMO. We had 15 games cancelled due to weather last season, 11 of which were to be played in either the Dakotas or Northern Minnesota. We ended up playing just 9 home games and 29 away games.

Since the English Coulee thaws out about the same time that you can play baseball in Northern North Dakota, it would make just as much sense for UND to have a rowing team as it does for them to have baseball.

[MplsBison]

If the NCAA is going to mandate this 25% rule, raise the money, or go scholarship free and compete other schools do it, with only 3 schollies we were close to that anyway.

UND can still keep the same number of scholarships for baseball, 3, and not be penalized.

Simply, the maximum number of players that you can spread those 3 scholarships around to is now 12, rather than the maximum roster size.

[mksioux]

In the short term, Shawn-O is dead-on. UND has to wait until the conference affiliation thing shakes out before making a long-term decision on baseball.

But generally speaking, unless UND needs baseball to help it get into a conference, I would be in favor of dropping it in favor of a sport like lacrosse. I'm sure the baseball players have been excellent additions to UND. But wouldn't lacrosse players be as well? (no Duke jokes please!) The bottom line is that UND will always be at a disadvantage in baseball due to the climate. Theoretically, UND could compete in a sport like lacrosse (using the Alerus Center as a venue). Moreover, times are changing. Lacrosse is on the up-swing in this country among the youth. It would be nice to see UND get in on the ground floor.

[The Sicatoka]

Doing a little digging around in various UND info I've acquired I find:

- UND's "pro forma" staffing budget projections include a coach, an assistant, and a grad assistant from 2008-09 through 2012-2013. (Currently it is a coach and two grad assistants.)

- UND projects to have 7.5 baseball scholarships in FY13 (2012-2013 season). That's 30 "25% scholarships" for folks without a calculator handy.

Even though I like the notion of lacrosse, yes, the prime issue now is finding an all sports conference home.

After achieving that comes aligning specific sports to that conference (add mens tennis? add mens soccer? drop baseball? drop softball? other?).

After that comes an evaluation of other possibilities under the new circumstances.

I'd love to see UND Lacrosse one day, but there are bigger fish to fry first.

[star2city]

In the short term, Shawn-O is dead-on. UND has to wait until the conference affiliation thing shakes out before making a long-term decision on baseball.

In the case of baseball, that probably isn't true:

In the Summit, IUPUI and UMKC do not sponsor baseball. The Summit doesn't require baseball.

The Big Sky does not sponsor baseball.

In the Horizon, UW-Green Bay and Loyola do not sponsor baseball.

In the WAC, Idaho, Utah State, and Boise State do not sponsor baseball.

In the MWC, Colorado State and Wyoming do not sponsor baseball.

In the MVC: Drake

Big Ten: Wisconsin

Big Twelve: Iowa State and Colorado

Big East: Providence, DePaul, Marquette, and Syracuse

The MAC is one of the few northern conferences that requires baseball as a core sport. If we were attempting to obtain membership in a southern conference, baseball would likely be a requirement.

With UND's current baseball facilities and spring weather conditions, the argument can be made that baseball would actually be a hindrance to conference acceptance. (Why travel to GF if a three-game weekend might be cancelled for weather reasons or if your pitcher blows out his arm in cold, wet conditions)? Now if baseball alumni and others who care step up to the plate and make facility and scholarship upgrades, that perception could change.

NDSU received membership into the Summit without offering a number of it's sports, including men's soccer, men's & women's swimming, and men's & women's tennis. If NDSU had a great swimming facility instead of Newman field/baseball program, the Summit would likely still have accepted them.

[darell1976]

Could the bad attendance for baseball be because Kraft field is a crappy stadium. I remember when they added bleachers in 1996 for the GF Varmints baseball team. Look at NDSU they have Newman Outdoor Field which is good for the Redhawks but really nice for the NDSU baseball team. How about sending some Engelstad money over to build a new baseball stadium say a 5000 capacity field with the whole 9 yards. Then maybe attendance would rise.

[The Walrus]

Theoretically, UND could compete in a sport like lacrosse (using the Alerus Center as a venue).

I'm sure the rental fees to practice and play would be next to nothing....

[The Walrus]

Could the bad attendance for baseball be because Kraft field is a crappy stadium. I remember when they added bleachers in 1996 for the GF Varmints baseball team. Look at NDSU they have Newman Outdoor Field which is good for the Redhawks but really nice for the NDSU baseball team. How about sending some Engelstad money over to build a new baseball stadium say a 5000 capacity field with the whole 9 yards. Then maybe attendance would rise.

I'm going on record and saying the UND baseball team had a greater attendance then lets say "Women's Hockey". Und administration just chose not to charge.....? I do not think people would mind spending a couple of bucks to see a baseball double header, on a sunny afternoon.

[mksioux]

I'm sure the rental fees to practice and play would be next to nothing....

I was talking about competition. UND could possibly be competitive in DI lacrosse, but will never be anywhere close to competitive in DI baseball.

Obviously UND would have to look at the finances before adding a sport. If they don't think lacrosse would break even, then they probably wouldn't add it.

[bincitysioux]

I'm going on record and saying the UND baseball team had a greater attendance then lets say "Women's Hockey". Und administration just chose not to charge.....? I do not think people would mind spending a couple of bucks to see a baseball double header, on a sunny afternoon.

Apples to oranges don't you think? The big difference between Women's hockey and baseball is that women's hockey actually has upside and potential. We have an excellent facility for the sport, and the university is located in a region of the country (and near Canada) that is conducive to producing high end talent. North Dakota or the University can't say either of those two things regarding baseball. And those sunny afternoons are few and far between during the heart of the college baseball season in March and April.

[Hansel]

Apples to oranges don't you think? The big difference between Women's hockey and baseball is that women's hockey actually has upside and potential. We have an excellent facility for the sport, and the university is located in a region of the country (and near Canada) that is conducive to producing high end talent. North Dakota or the University can't say either of those two things regarding baseball. And those sunny afternoons are few and far between during the heart of the college baseball season in March and April.

has women's hockey attendance been increasing nationally (don't know)

you think a 12000 seat facility is great for a team which averages 298 fans a game, in a sport where only two teams average 800+?

http://www.uscho.com/stats/attendancew.php

there is a reason the Minnesota women play in a smaller arena and Wisco is looking to build a smaller women's arena

Does the betty have ice capabilities- would be perfect size for women's hockey

[The Sicatoka]

Does the betty have ice capabilities- would be perfect size for women's hockey

The Olympic practice arena (200 x 100 sheet) between The Ralph and The Betty can hold about 1000.

As far as baseball facilities making a difference (ala Newman):

May 15, 2006, Minnesota wins at NDSU 11-10, attendance 503 at Newman Field.

That's a little better than 10% full. That's the "most excitement" game of the year and it's really not all that much better than UND's 2006 season average of 324.

The college baseball season is tough in this climate.