yzerman19 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Sloppy play in your own zone = Losses. You can not telegraph passes, especially in your own zone. I also noticed the turnovers. I also notice that we don't often break out with speed and authority. it seems more tentative, like we are afraid to get beat one on one (except Osh who goes one on one all the time). Anyway, I saw the sloppy play too. Key areas to get better: Powerplay, puck possession in the defensive zone, and break outs Areas that seem to be clicking: Forecheck, penalty kill, transition through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone Areas hurting us that are not our fault: Refs calling weak penalties. Surviving the opposition powerplay is great, but it wears out your penalty killers for at least one additional shift. That's energy that could be used to generate scoring or to play harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 You can not telegraph passes, especially in your own zone. Oy does that happen at times ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutter Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Plus/minus is the worst stat in hockey today. You can have zero effect on a play and get a +, or a -. The plus/minus stat is mostly a virtue of playing time and luck. Do you think that Matt Watkins is a better forward that TJ Oshie because Watkins is a +9 and Oshie is only +1? Do you think Finley (+18) is a better defenseman than Taylor Chorney (Even)? The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. Hockey isn't baseball. You can't put a stat on everything that comes up with a total output like you can with OPS in baseball. Just because Joe Finley is leading the team in +/- does not mean hes the best hockey player on the team, in fact, I'm not even sure he should be in the lineup every night over chorney, bina, genoway, lapoint, jones and marto. (In that order) He's slow, doesn't hit very much for his size, and brings nothing offensively (which is another point why is he on the power play at times, or on the ice in the closing minutes when the team is down). I'm convinced the only reason that he plays so much is that Hak thinks that he'll have another Okposo leaving since he is allegedly a first round pick, even though he hasn't come even close to fulfilling that role. My order is Chorney, Finley, Bina, Genoway, Jones, Lapoint, and Marto. You obviously didn't play defense. There is no stat that tells the whole story except for maybe W/L. But to say +/- is a useless stat is crazy. The biggest problem that I have noticed with the D is continuity between D pairs. It doesn't seem like the pairs are comfortable playing together. I think by March this will have worked itself out as Hak continues to experiment. Finley, in my opinion, is definitely one of our top 3 D. My most improved goes to Kaip, but he is also my favorite player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 so one player gets critisized and now hes being brian lee'd?? No just trying to stir up some irony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 My order is Chorney, Finley, Bina, Genoway, Jones, Lapoint, and Marto. You obviously didn't play defense. There is no stat that tells the whole story except for maybe W/L. But to say +/- is a useless stat is crazy. The biggest problem that I have noticed with the D is continuity between D pairs. It doesn't seem like the pairs are comfortable playing together. I think by March this will have worked itself out as Hak continues to experiment. Finley, in my opinion, is definitely one of our top 3 D. My most improved goes to Kaip, but he is also my favorite player. You lost all credibility putting Bina third Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yababy8 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I think we all can agree that he's not the Taylor Chorney of March 2007. Where we may not concur is the "why" behind it. Let me add a perspective: Chorney struggled at the biggining of this season, no doubt. There were two reasons I saw for this. First, Until the last few games he was pinching in the zone to much. He lost the zone several times as he was out of position to get the board pass. Looks like he has stopped doing this. Bina is a good pincher Chorney is not. "know your role" is what the hack says second, he was not paired with Bina. In case no one has noticed the Chorney-Bina combo is big time. Earlier this year I watched the TVOed Minnesota series and St. Cloud Final five game from last year(remember), and I have to say that Chorney-Bina was a big reason for the excellent passing plays we all saw then. I was hoping Hak would put them back together and he did. 5 on five that is.. I will go out on a limb and say that the Chorney-Bina combo will be a big factor in the Sioux becoming dominant in the near future. They move the puck around amazingly well in the zone. They work great together creating lanes to the forwards and feeding them. We all know how much of an appetite Duncan and Oshie have. Chorney also has such a good talent for moving the puck through the neutral zone. Bina has a high end wrister. Top five on team in MHO. Speaking of telegraphed passes- Oshie is the worst at this one. Sorry Oshie because you are awesome at about everything else. Well maybe work a little at finishing your shot. Most improved: Martins- fast and pushing the puck well. Finley- finally getting more physical without the penalties. Duncan-He has started to add another demension to his game- he is creating plays in motion on the outside. He is going to be spectacular at the end of the year. "Trupp"- Should he be on the DOT line?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaksHomey Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 is Toews an option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Schwartz Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 My order is Chorney, Finley, Bina, Genoway, Jones, Lapoint, and Marto. You obviously didn't play defense. There is no stat that tells the whole story except for maybe W/L. But to say +/- is a useless stat is crazy. The biggest problem that I have noticed with the D is continuity between D pairs. It doesn't seem like the pairs are comfortable playing together. I think by March this will have worked itself out as Hak continues to experiment. Finley, in my opinion, is definitely one of our top 3 D. My most improved goes to Kaip, but he is also my favorite player. +/- is like the RBI stat. It is a stat that is a byproduct of opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 THe minus half of +/- is an important measure. I don't think minus is a byproduct of opportunity. Rather than +/-, just show me goals against while on the ice. We all know that Osh and Duncs will ahve 40 point seasons, how many goals do they give up when out there? Guys like Jones and Finley aren't going to score, in fact they will most likely look for their partner to move the puck up to transition too, so they aren't going to get assists either. Just show me how many goals they allow per game, that's a stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I like the fact that people are calling out one of the most reliable defensive defensemen we've had this season. Why does Finley have such a great +/-? Sure, he's probably out there when the goalscorers are, but that's only half the stat. He isn't on the ice when goals are scored, which means he's not participating in letting the other guys around him. Is he going to get skated by or burned once in a while? I'd expect it. That's what happens when you pit a small forward against a big defenseman. It's how it is. That's why there are pairings and matchups that the coaches try to run. Is Finley the BEST defenseman on the team this season? No. I think Bina has been. But is he not deserving of a starting role on the team? Hell no. He's a DEFENSIVE defenseman. Why is he on the PP? Good question. The only idea I'd have is his size. Perhaps they have a scripted play where he ends up screening the goaltender. But that's really out there. I don't really like our second PP unit anyways. But, yeah, Finley is a great defenseman for the Sioux. The problem is that he's over 6'2' tall, a first round pick, and not as physical as Smaby and Greene. Heck, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but he hasn't even gone to the penalty box as much as those two! I don't know what is with Chorney, but I'm not going to call out players who aren't causing problems. And I'll NEVER call out a defensive defenseman for not really contributing offensively. It's not in their game. However, if I ever change my mind, I'd be tempted to rail JPL for not contributing in at least more assists. I mean, all he does is play defense (goaltending). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Our freshmen D are minus in league play. So are our checkers. That is tough to overcome. I agree that there are situational issues. You are going to have more minuses when you are facing the other teams' top scoring threats, but we need our checkers to play even hockey. They aren't going to score very often, so they need to work hard at keeping the other teams off the board. It doesn't seem to me that Taylor was paired with Robbie all season. Was he, and I just wasn't paying attention? I thought he was playing with Lapointe in the beginning. Watkins is second on the team on shots on goal, that's also an interesting stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 But, yeah, Finley is a great defenseman for the Sioux. The problem is that he's over 6'2' tall, a first round pick, and not as physical as Smaby and Greene. Heck, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but he hasn't even gone to the penalty box as much as those two! LOL, I am not sure that is a negative. I think Finley has done a pretty good job, he isn't very old and will only get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 It doesn't seem to me that Taylor was paired with Robbie all season. I thought that Robbie was/is with Finley a lot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Big Joe is by far the most improved defenseman this year. Anyone who says otherwise isn't paying attention. When Big Joe came to GF, he was not good. Now, he is feared. He is holding up his end of the deal. I also would say that ZJones is holding up his end. This team is just getting comfortable. I think the lines will be set after this last win at SCSU, and I predict a strong finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxfan_inDenver Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Big Joe is by far the most improved defenseman this year. Anyone who says otherwise isn't paying attention. When Big Joe came to GF, he was not good. Now, he is feared. He is holding up his end of the deal. I also would say that ZJones is holding up his end. This team is just getting comfortable. I think the lines will be set after this last win at SCSU, and I predict a strong finish. Jones looked excellent last weekend. IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yababy8 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I thought that Robbie was/is with Finley a lot? Chorney has been with Bina on the power play for about four or five games. Hak put them together on regular shifts starting with the new hamp. series. and I think this team, even though they have had some lingering issues (second half of third Sat against new hamp. and most of third Friday against st.cloud), has turned a corner partly because of Chorney/Bina. They hold the zone, they both find passing lanes to the forwards so well, and Bina takes nice shots after Chorney works him open. two other big reasons this team is taking a good turn. the Canadian line and Duncan is moving around making plays as he enters the zone ahh heck i cant forget to mention Finley becoming a tougher smarter D man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZSIOUX Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Jones looked excellent last weekend. IMHO. jones is a true defensive defenseman. doesnt make many mistakes and is there without a blink to defend any teammate that gets knocked down or in a scrum. you need players like jones out there. i like our mix. will be interesting to see what exact 6 will be out there on friday. the obvious player tha decides this is genoway wherever he plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxfan_inDenver Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 jones is a true defensive defenseman. doesnt make many mistakes and is there without a blink to defend any teammate that gets knocked down or in a scrum. you need players like jones out there. i like our mix. will be interesting to see what exact 6 will be out there on friday. the obvious player tha decides this is genoway wherever he plays. I really like Genoway on D. Smart passing is all I have to say for that guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 In conference play, we have 30 goals against (excluding the 4 empty netters). Of which, 9 are pp goals against. So, 21 goals have been scored against us even strength. Considering Chorney is even in +/- and he has 9 assists in league play, that means that at least 9 of those 21 goals have come with Taylor on the ice. More than likely there have been a few times chorns is on the ice for a goal without getting a point as well, so if we just assume that to be the case for two Sioux goals, Taylor Chorney is on the ice playing defense for more than half of the even strength goals we've given up. That is not acceptable for a former captain of team usa and a pre-season all-american. Now Taylor logs a lot of ice time, but I don't believe that he skates half the game during even strength situations. Each D-pairing should theoretically play close to 1/3 of the even strength minutes, give or take a litte. Taylor's minutes obviously go up due to PP and PK time. On the same token, we've scored 45 conference goals, with 9 power play goals. We have not notched an empty netter. Joe Finley is a +16. That means that he has been on the ice for a minimum of 16 of the 36 goals we've scored even strength. If we assume that he has been on the ice for a couple minuses, say 2, then he has been on the ice for half of our even strength goals scored. Who would've thunk it. Taylor giving up more goals per minute of even strength ice time than the other D-men, and Finley being out there for more goals scored per minute of ice time than the other D-men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yababy8 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 In conference play, we have 30 goals against (excluding the 4 empty netters). Of which, 9 are pp goals against. So, 21 goals have been scored against us even strength. Considering Chorney is even in +/- and he has 9 assists in league play, that means that at least 9 of those 21 goals have come with Taylor on the ice. More than likely there have been a few times chorns is on the ice for a goal without getting a point as well, so if we just assume that to be the case for two Sioux goals, Taylor Chorney is on the ice playing defense for more than half of the even strength goals we've given up. That is not acceptable for a former captain of team usa and a pre-season all-american. Now Taylor logs a lot of ice time, but I don't believe that he skates half the game during even strength situations. Each D-pairing should theoretically play close to 1/3 of the even strength minutes, give or take a litte. Taylor's minutes obviously go up due to PP and PK time. On the same token, we've scored 45 conference goals, with 9 power play goals. We have not notched an empty netter. Joe Finley is a +16. That means that he has been on the ice for a minimum of 16 of the 36 goals we've scored even strength. If we assume that he has been on the ice for a couple minuses, say 2, then he has been on the ice for half of our even strength goals scored. Who would've thunk it. Taylor giving up more goals per minute of even strength ice time than the other D-men, and Finley being out there for more goals scored per minute of ice time than the other D-men. Like a pointed out earlier, Chorney was pinching in and trying to get involved in the middle earlier this season, he missed the out pass around the boards and lost the zone about 10 times that I saw- So this cost us big and I was getting very p*ssed about it as a fan. But he has completely stopped doing this the last four games... Also, although your math in not incorrect, consider a coulple of things: 1. Our WCHA schedule has included all the top teams and very little gravy- ie alaska, mankato. 2. Chorney is an offensive defensemen and on the ice with the oshie/dunk line alot. teams have been putting there top line against ours since the gophers did it in the final five last year because the line can struggle to play defense in our own zone. So I would argue that our top line has struggled earlier this year and given up pts and not aquired their own. I'm not going to look it up but I would guess you could get the same mathmatic results from oshie's WCHA numbers also. In either case I agree Chorney struggled earlier but now he is playing a spot and a style that suites his strenghts and minimizes his weeknesses. Her me now and believe me later he will dominate. And I agree about Finley i also agree that Jones is starting to play solid and making his presence know on the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Jones looked excellent last weekend. IMHO. I don't get where people say that Jones isn't a good defenseman, I think he plays smart with the puck and is mean and nasty infront of the net. I don't remember him making a lot of mistakes this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZSIOUX Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I don't get where people say that Jones isn't a good defenseman, I think he plays smart with the puck and is mean and nasty infront of the net. I don't remember him making a lot of mistakes this season. who said he wasnt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Dumb penalties? Jones makes up for the "grit"? What game are you watching? Jones is a over rated spazz that constantly takes poor penalties down in his own corners for no reason other than trying to put some lumber on someones back. Jones keeps taking bad penalties and he might be out of a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAR Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Jones is OK....I don't think he can score a point to save his life. He is about as defensive of a defenseman as you can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 The only game where I really saw Jones taking some dumb penalties was in WI. Otherwise, he's been VERY solid, especially the last month and a half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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