Fetch Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 Bina at least gives it his best & is stronger out there than most D men What I like about watching Robbie is he makes up his mind (either play the Puck or the Man / body) & then does it - many can't seem to decide & then neither gets done well - I don't overly think fans should watch for this & focus on it as much as I do - It will drive you you sit in the stands saying "one or the other" & people wonder what you are saying that for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 The best Plus/Minus on the team so far this season belongs to ________. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godsmack Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I know its off topic but the Herald said that Oshie was stripped of his "A" on his jersey. Is this permanent? If so, who replaced him as an alternate captain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 The best Plus/Minus on the team so far this season belongs to ________. Joe Finley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Schwartz Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 The best Plus/Minus on the team so far this season belongs to ________. Plus/minus is the worst stat in hockey today. You can have zero effect on a play and get a +, or a -. The plus/minus stat is mostly a virtue of playing time and luck. Do you think that Matt Watkins is a better forward that TJ Oshie because Watkins is a +9 and Oshie is only +1? Do you think Finley (+18) is a better defenseman than Taylor Chorney (Even)? The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. Hockey isn't baseball. You can't put a stat on everything that comes up with a total output like you can with OPS in baseball. Just because Joe Finley is leading the team in +/- does not mean hes the best hockey player on the team, in fact, I'm not even sure he should be in the lineup every night over chorney, bina, genoway, lapoint, jones and marto. (In that order) He's slow, doesn't hit very much for his size, and brings nothing offensively (which is another point why is he on the power play at times, or on the ice in the closing minutes when the team is down). I'm convinced the only reason that he plays so much is that Hak thinks that he'll have another Okposo leaving since he is allegedly a first round pick, even though he hasn't come even close to fulfilling that role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Agee that there is a lot more than stats, however to call +/- the worst stat is also kind of silly. It does measure you and your line's ability to play both ends of the rink. Yes, there is some luck, but that's why they call it a game. You win and lose as a team. I love +/- as a line indicator and a d-pair indicator if they are doing their jobs. As for Watkins being a bigger plus than Oshie, that doesn't surprise me. There have been many times this year when I have ben disgusted by the d-zone play of our top fellas. Given the point production of the Osh and Duncs, the fact that TJ is a +1 is really a testament to not playing good tight D. (not just on TJ, but on his linemates and the D pairs). By the way, not knocking theOsh, noone debates his skill and hard style of play. It doesn't do you one bit of good if either Duncs or Osh score on every other shift, but the opponent is answering on the opposite shift. Talk about undeserved negativity on Finley. I think that he has played much better all year. He can't play as physical as he'd like, because he'll draw a penalty every time. Bigger stronger kid doesn't seem to matter to the refs in this league. All that being said, the only stat that matters is wins and losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Joe Finley. Hasn't he led in that statistic or at least been close for the prior two seasons as well. I realize that a lot of people expect him to be a big hitter, but in that case his size works against him. If he throws a big check the referee's will call him for something, probably elbowing (sound familiar?) On the other hand that size differential doesn't work for a player like Gennoway when he takes a check from a larger player. But the bottom line is that he plays his defensive position well more in screening out the players and depucking them with his reach. On offense he makes good decisions with the skills he has. Bingo, big leader in plus/minus. It's not a fluke over the course of a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Plus/minus is the worst stat in hockey today. You can have zero effect on a play and get a +, or a -. The plus/minus stat is mostly a virtue of playing time and luck. Do you think that Matt Watkins is a better forward that TJ Oshie because Watkins is a +9 and Oshie is only +1? Do you think Finley (+18) is a better defenseman than Taylor Chorney (Even)? The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. Hockey isn't baseball. You can't put a stat on everything that comes up with a total output like you can with OPS in baseball. Just because Joe Finley is leading the team in +/- does not mean hes the best hockey player on the team, in fact, I'm not even sure he should be in the lineup every night over chorney, bina, genoway, lapoint, jones and marto. (In that order) He's slow, doesn't hit very much for his size, and brings nothing offensively (which is another point why is he on the power play at times, or on the ice in the closing minutes when the team is down). I'm convinced the only reason that he plays so much is that Hak thinks that he'll have another Okposo leaving since he is allegedly a first round pick, even though he hasn't come even close to fulfilling that role. I hate to disagree with you, but I'm going to. I coached youth hockey for several years and some of the parents would do stats for us. When they asked what stats we (coaches) wanted, my reply was the only stat that I care about was +/-, and more specifically just the "-" part of +/-. I want to know who's in the ice when we're giving up goals. If you're on the ice for more goals scored for your team than what you're giving up, that's a huge "+" in my book. I could care less who was doing the scoring, as long as it was our team. Now, I admit that youth hockey is a bit different than WCHA hockey, however I think the priciple is the same. I'm not saying Finley is the best player on the team because he leads +/-, but if you're on the ice more when the Sioux score than when the opposition scores, you're doing your job...especially if you're a defenseman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 .... depucking .... Can you use that word on this forum? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Defensive defensemen (Finley, Jones) are out there not to score but to make sure no bad things happen in their end of the ice. Anything positive in Plus/Minus for a defensive defenseman is, quite obviously, a positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Can you use that word on this forum? ;) We'll see if I get banned or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stack Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Kaip's scoring more and he's getting chances to play in situations that he didn't get to last year. Kozek is playing much better than he did the first two years and so far I'd say he is the most improved. One player not mentioned is our walk-on and very much improved player, Ryan Martens. Martens has gone from a healthy scratch to a player that creates on the ice. Even before the last two weekends when he got put together wirh Zajac and Radke he showed a lot on the ice. Without a lot of real game time I think he's shown he can play with everyone. My two most disappointing players are Miller and Chorney. I barely notice Miller on the ice and as a forward that's bad. I notice Chorney all the time and as a defensman that's worse. So Kozek and Martens: Improved Miller and Chorney: Not improved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 A defenseman is only as good as his partner. For much of the year it seems that Chorney has been having to give his partners a ton of help. He can't do it alone back there. One very big disappointment is that he hasn't scored a goal yet. I used to love watching him walk in about 15 feet and let a corner-seeking missile go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stromer Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Agee that there is a lot more than stats, however to call +/- the worst stat is also kind of silly. It does measure you and your line's ability to play both ends of the rink. Yes, there is some luck, but that's why they call it a game. You win and lose as a team. I love +/- as a line indicator and a d-pair indicator if they are doing their jobs. As for Watkins being a bigger plus than Oshie, that doesn't surprise me. There have been many times this year when I have ben disgusted by the d-zone play of our top fellas. Given the point production of the Osh and Duncs, the fact that TJ is a +1 is really a testament to not playing good tight D. (not just on TJ, but on his linemates and the D pairs). By the way, not knocking theOsh, noone debates his skill and hard style of play. It doesn't do you one bit of good if either Duncs or Osh score on every other shift, but the opponent is answering on the opposite shift. Talk about undeserved negativity on Finley. I think that he has played much better all year. He can't play as physical as he'd like, because he'll draw a penalty every time. Bigger stronger kid doesn't seem to matter to the refs in this league. All that being said, the only stat that matters is wins and losses. Props. You can definitely tell Finley has improved since his first year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trunk Monkey Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Agee that there is a lot more than stats, however to call +/- the worst stat is also kind of silly. It does measure you and your line's ability to play both ends of the rink. Yes, there is some luck, but that's why they call it a game. You win and lose as a team. I love +/- as a line indicator and a d-pair indicator if they are doing their jobs. As for Watkins being a bigger plus than Oshie, that doesn't surprise me. There have been many times this year when I have ben disgusted by the d-zone play of our top fellas. Given the point production of the Osh and Duncs, the fact that TJ is a +1 is really a testament to not playing good tight D. (not just on TJ, but on his linemates and the D pairs). By the way, not knocking theOsh, noone debates his skill and hard style of play. It doesn't do you one bit of good if either Duncs or Osh score on every other shift, but the opponent is answering on the opposite shift. Talk about undeserved negativity on Finley. I think that he has played much better all year. He can't play as physical as he'd like, because he'll draw a penalty every time. Bigger stronger kid doesn't seem to matter to the refs in this league. All that being said, the only stat that matters is wins and losses. Well said - I agree 100% with all of your points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 A defenseman is only as good as his partner. For much of the year it seems that Chorney has been having to give his partners a ton of help. He can't do it alone back there. One very big disappointment is that he hasn't scored a goal yet. I used to love watching him walk in about 15 feet and let a corner-seeking missile go. His decision making has been poor with the puck which has lead to too many turnovers which has resulted directly into a few goals. When you take into account his play last year and the pre-season All-American billing, he has not delivered this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I barely notice Miller on the ice and as a forward that's bad. I notice Chorney all the time and as a defensman that's worse. Never truer words typed, and especially so for the bolded part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stromer Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Never truer words typed, and especially so for the bolded part. True but the people who say he isn't getting help may also have a point. How many times do we see a 2 on 1 break with Chorney on D? He might flub the situation and not really do much but where is the other D man at? I guess it is a risk of having offensive D-men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 True but the people who say he isn't getting help may also have a point. How many times do we see a 2 on 1 break with Chorney on D? He might flub the situation and not really do much but where is the other D man at? I guess it is a risk of having offensive D-men. Fair enough. But I've also seen him not tie up a man in front for the goal to tie (v. UNH) that started their run. And Friday he just kept giving and giving ground and watched Lasch go around him for the first one v. SCSU. Even in the replay I couldn't figure out why Taylor wasn't stepping up on Lasch and burying him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 You can't blame Chorney for all the turnovers either. The breakout is as much on the forwards as the D. I see wingers at the blue line way too fast. The D then has to try and hit the long pass, which is easily picked off. Wingers have to get down to the hash, short, crisp passes to transition up. If the breakout isn't there, the d need to recompose and simply wait for their forwards to come back. Remember that Marto and Lapointe are both making TONs of freshmen mistakes in our end. Don't blame Chorns, could you do your best work if you were constantly worrying about the guy next to you. It is also pretty easy to point fingers and give examples of screw-ups and times where our D man gets beat. There are many more times where our D men are winning. TC included. If he was playing that poorly, given the number of minutes he logs, we'd be 0-14 in the WCHA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I knew we'd miss Brian Lee, now we've got to hack on Chorney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I think we all can agree that he's not the Taylor Chorney of March 2007. Where we may not concur is the "why" behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZSIOUX Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I knew we'd miss Brian Lee, now we've got to hack on Chorney. so one player gets critisized and now hes being brian lee'd?? dont think so. why dont we all the same opinions and agree on everything, that wuld be fun.....if a player tears it up we can sure praise the hell out of them but when they arent we sure should be able to critisize them without getting too crazy as i agree but people simply stating he isnt playing like he did last season and has struggled a bit shouldnt be a big deal........chorney isnt the same player as last year so far, doesnt mean he wont pick it up by any means though. just as right now hes in a little funk. i would still take chorns anyday anygame so lets hope the guys start clicking all on cylinders andkick some husky ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 You can't blame Chorney for all the turnovers either. The breakout is as much on the forwards as the D. I see wingers at the blue line way too fast. The D then has to try and hit the long pass, which is easily picked off. Wingers have to get down to the hash, short, crisp passes to transition up. If the breakout isn't there, the d need to recompose and simply wait for their forwards to come back. Remember that Marto and Lapointe are both making TONs of freshmen mistakes in our end. Don't blame Chorns, could you do your best work if you were constantly worrying about the guy next to you. It is also pretty easy to point fingers and give examples of screw-ups and times where our D man gets beat. There are many more times where our D men are winning. TC included. If he was playing that poorly, given the number of minutes he logs, we'd be 0-14 in the WCHA. On Saturday Sioux forwards made some poor decisions with the puck even IN the zone. VandeVelde failed to move the puck out of the zone when he could have which led to extended pressure by SCSU and their first goal. Someone, I don't recall who but it might have been VandeVelde again, tried to dangle through traffic across the Sioux blue line, got picked and resulted in a great SCSU opportunity, etc. There were other gaffes of a similar nature, more than I remember usually seeing by the Sioux. It wasn't just forwards either, it was defensemen as well. For example, in another situation a Sioux defensemen took the puck in the corner and started moving up the boards. He was pressured by an SCSU defensemen. It was not clear if he would be checked or if he would beat the angle and skate out of the zone. The defenseman turned 180 and headed back the wrong direction, was immediately caught and coughed up the puck leading to another scoring opportunity by SCSU. The defensemen had 2 other choices in that situation...either chip the puck out of the zone or steel the nerve and blast forward. I realize that sometimes you make decisions and take some risks because the potential reward is great (creating an opening to hit a breaking forward or something like that). I also realize chipping the puck out of the zone often gives the puck back to the other team. I also know that as fast as the game is played a team won't make all the right decisions all the time. We just felt that the Sioux made an inordinate number of these mistakes on Saturday and were lucky to escape with as few goals against as they had. I'm looking forward to watching this weekend's games in person to see if things are the same or improved. And for anyone who thinks I'm got something against VandeVelde I'm not. The guy was a monster working the boards behind the SCSU goal. Fun to watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 I don't miss any former players especially BL (cause they are not coming back) so they are never really in my thoughts on improving the team - I can only hope current players play their best - I do agree there are some D men that I think would be better on the PP - at this point of the season, if it's not working, you have to try new things Building confidense - I wonder how much the coaches work on this ? We seem to have a few who need a mental adjustment more than physical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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