Great West Preseason Poll

[dakotadan]

I know that comparing everything to 2003 is convenient for you, but it has no basis in reality. If you think that UND and USD will be successful because of where ndsu(you got this one right) was in 2003 (one of its worst records (not worst team) in history), then you haven't put much thought into things. It is all about scholarships and how well you leverage them at the next level of 63. The pecking order in 2003 means nothing. It's a new ballgame and its all about recruiting and funding at the 63 level. UND could be successful or they could pull a Unc, but your DII playoff appearances because of watered down competition will have no bearing on your success at the 63 scholarship level.

If you think the 2003 pecking order still exists, then you must not have TV at your house.

Yes, because UND never made the playoffs before ndsu left and DII became watered down.

More bison spew.

[Herd]

Yes, because UND never made the playoffs before ndsu left and DII became watered down.

More bison spew.

Using 2003 and 36 scholarships to compare teams and project und success is a bunch of spew. That year and that scholarship level have no relevence, other than it makes good spew for you folks.

[Hammersmith]

If you think 2003 was one of NDSU's worst years then perhaps you're the one who has not "put much thought into things". I believe the year you're thinking of was 2002, which I was not referring to. I was actually dismissing that horrible year because, as fun as it was for me, it was a blip on the radar. I'm talking about the competitive years NDSU had in D2 prior to their move up to I-AA. Aside from that one bad year that you (not I) made reference to, the Bison were a good (not great) D2 football program in the decade prior to moving up. UND, on the other hand, has been a great D2 football program in the decade prior to moving up. Basic logic and common sense should lead any sane and reasonable person to come to the conclusion that the odds are in favor of a great D2 being likely to do anything that a good D2 was able to do. I understand that flies in the face of your stream yellow propaganda hype machine, but sometimes the truth hurts. Deal with it. Of course there's no guarantee that anybody will accomplish anything after moving up, but just by playing the percentages an intelligent individual would predict that a team with greater success prior to moving up would be more likely to have greater success after the move up. To suggest that UND will not be able to compete with NDSU in terms of recruiting at the I-AA level sounds like some wishful thinking to me.

This is going to sound counter-intuitive, but the opposite of your argument may be true. In NDSU's case, probably the major reason the final decade of DII football dropped from great to good was due to the veer offense reaching the end of its small college life. With pro-style offenses/defenses reaching the DII level, NDSU could no longer use the veer to dominate opponents. If anything, we hung on to it too long. Babich's record suffered because he was making the transition to West Coast/Tampa Two with players recruited for the previous systems. The fact that he thought he was an offensive play calling genius sure didn't help matters. Those factors, added to a slew of graduations and injuries, caused the 2-8 season in 2002. By the time Bohl took over, he had all the pieces in place(Babich's recruits) for a brand new Bison squad that had little in common with the squads of the mid-90's forward.

And there's the rub. NDSU was almost forced to reinvent the team even before the decision to move to DI was finalized. Because the last decade and a half has been so good for UND football, you could fall into the trap of thinking what has been working for you well in DII, will keep working for you well in FCS. Now, that's by no means a sure thing, but it is a possibility that your recent success might hold the seeds to future failure.

But the real truth of the matter is that past success has little real meaning compared to other factors. We had a new coach that reinvigorated the program and has had great success. You are entering the transition with an untested head coach. NDSU was able to nearly triple donations to our scholarship fund. Will UND be able to do the same? NDSU had room for attendance to grow by nearly 8,500, or 80%. UND's attendance can only grow by about 2,600, or 26%. NDSU had a president who valued the role of athletics and an athletic director that had his confidence. Both Kelley and Faison are unknown quantities at this point.

I'm not saying UND football can't, or won't, succeed(far from it). I am saying that coaching, money, and administrative leadership are each more important than past success. Right now, UND is facing questions in each of those areas. Only time will tell if the respective answers are good or ill.

[DI IN FARGO]

Another good post by Hammersmith.

[Herd]

If you think 2003 was one of NDSU's worst years then perhaps you're the one who has not "put much thought into things". I believe the year you're thinking of was 2002, which I was not referring to. I was actually dismissing that horrible year because, as fun as it was for me, it was a blip on the radar. I'm talking about the competitive years NDSU had in D2 prior to their move up to I-AA. Aside from that one bad year that you (not I) made reference to, the Bison were a good (not great) D2 football program in the decade prior to moving up. UND, on the other hand, has been a great D2 football program in the decade prior to moving up. Basic logic and common sense should lead any sane and reasonable person to come to the conclusion that the odds are in favor of a great D2 being likely to do anything that a good D2 was able to do. I understand that flies in the face of your stream yellow propaganda hype machine, but sometimes the truth hurts. Deal with it. Of course there's no guarantee that anybody will accomplish anything after moving up, but just by playing the percentages an intelligent individual would predict that a team with greater success prior to moving up would be more likely to have greater success after the move up. To suggest that UND will not be able to compete with NDSU in terms of recruiting at the I-AA level sounds like some wishful thinking to me.

Northern Colorado had more late 90's success in DII than UND (championships/wins), had almost immediate entry into the Big Sky, and look where that got them. I guess the percentages game that you are playing has it pitfalls, doesn't it. Projecting a conference-less und to the top 5 FCS level sounds like wishful thinking to me.

The situation that will affect MN St. in the Northern Sun is the same thing that happenend to NDSU in DII. Scholarship reductions stifled our ability to recruit to our capability and dominate, bringing us back to the pack and to mediocrity. Does anyone in the Northern Sun have the resources to hang with MN St., NO, but once scholarship levels are equal and MN St. is playing down, the other progams will complete well with them.

Yes, und held the upper hand during those latter years in DII. But when scholarship levels were higher, that was not the case. I'm projecting that ndsu will again dominate when given the ability to stretch. Any intelligent person would understand this logic.

[LeftyZL]

Northern Colorado had more late 90's success in DII than UND (championships/wins), had almost immediate entry into the Big Sky, and look where that got them. I guess the percentages game that you are playing has it pitfalls, doesn't it. Projecting a conference-less und to the top 5 FCS level sounds like wishful thinking to me.

The situation that will affect MN St. in the Northern Sun is the same thing that happenend to NDSU in DII. Scholarship reductions stifled our ability to recruit to our capability and dominate, bringing us back to the pack and to mediocrity. Does anyone in the Northern Sun have the resources to hang with MN St., NO, but once scholarship levels are equal and MN St. is playing down, the other progams will complete well with them.

Yes, und held the upper hand during those latter years in DII. But when scholarship levels were higher, that was not the case. I'm projecting that ndsu will again dominate when given the ability to stretch. Any intelligent person would understand this logic.

Would you have predicted a top 5 FCS Bison program when they went into the transition 5 years ago, conference-free also? No way. No Chance. Wishful thinking maybe.

Increasing scholarship levels doesn't guarantee domination. Will it help? It can't hurt. But it's no guarantee. IMO, neither team will dominate like they did in the past. Hopefully, I am wrong.

[dlsiouxfan]

Northern Colorado had more late 90's success in DII than UND (championships/wins), had almost immediate entry into the Big Sky, and look where that got them. I guess the percentages game that you are playing has it pitfalls, doesn't it. Projecting a conference-less und to the top 5 FCS level sounds like wishful thinking to me.

The situation that will affect MN St. in the Northern Sun is the same thing that happenend to NDSU in DII. Scholarship reductions stifled our ability to recruit to our capability and dominate, bringing us back to the pack and to mediocrity. Does anyone in the Northern Sun have the resources to hang with MN St., NO, but once scholarship levels are equal and MN St. is playing down, the other progams will complete well with them.

Yes, und held the upper hand during those latter years in DII. But when scholarship levels were higher, that was not the case. I'm projecting that ndsu will again dominate when given the ability to stretch. Any intelligent person would understand this logic.

In the 70's scholarship levels were at or exceeded the levels for I-AA right now and UND dominated the series and that era featured some of the worst Bi-son teams ever assembled, so your theory doesn't hold much water. The AC's dominance in the 80's was largely the result of inept Sioux coaching during the Pat Behrns era. Once Roger Thomas became coach your dominance soon came to an end and UND re-assumed it's proper place as the premier football team in the state.

[FargoBison]

In the 70's scholarship levels were at or exceeded the levels for I-AA right now and UND dominated the series and that era featured some of the worst Bi-son teams ever assembled, so your theory doesn't hold much water. The AC's dominance in the 80's was largely the result of inept Sioux coaching during the Pat Behrns era. Once Roger Thomas became coach your dominance soon came to an end and UND re-assumed it's proper place as the premier football team in the state.

NDSU was 71-30-1 in the 70s and 5-5 against UND, I wouldn't call that domination.

[Bison Dan]

In the 70's scholarship levels were at or exceeded the levels for I-AA right now and UND dominated the series and that era featured some of the worst Bi-son teams ever assembled, so your theory doesn't hold much water. The AC's dominance in the 80's was largely the result of inept Sioux coaching during the Pat Behrns era. Once Roger Thomas became coach your dominance soon came to an end and UND re-assumed it's proper place as the premier football team in the state.

und was never the premier fb in ND - just in your mind. RT was 5 of 13 against the NDSU during the regular season. You have to win big games and NC to be the premier in anything.

[Matt]

In the 70's scholarship levels were at or exceeded the levels for I-AA right now and UND dominated the series and that era featured some of the worst Bi-son teams ever assembled, so your theory doesn't hold much water. The AC's dominance in the 80's was largely the result of inept Sioux coaching during the Pat Behrns era. Once Roger Thomas became coach your dominance soon came to an end and UND re-assumed it's proper place as the premier football team in the state.

Give credit where it's due. NDSU dominated the 80's on a national scale.

From 1993 through the end of the Sioux/Bison series the Sioux won 10 of 13 head-to-head meetings, played in four national semifinal games, and two national championship games, winning one of those two. During the same era, NDSU played in exactly one national semifinal game

Why are you ignoring 1990?

[dlsiouxfan]

Give credit where it's due. NDSU dominated the 80's on a national scale.

Why are you ignoring 1990?

I'd like to say I could remember the Bi-son glory days but since they're so damn long ago I can't say I have any memories. I remember UND's championship, the AC's are old and dusty.

[Matt]

I'd like to say I could remember the Bi-son glory days but since they're so damn long ago I can't say I have any memories. I remember UND's championship, the AC's are old and dusty.

In the 70's scholarship levels were at or exceeded the levels for I-AA right now and UND dominated the series and that era featured some of the worst Bi-son teams ever assembled, so your theory doesn't hold much water.

Yet, you can still remember the '70s.

[star2city]

Yet, you can still remember the '70s.

And you can't remember going to a Sioux game in GF.

[Matt]

And you can't remember going to a Sioux game in GF.

Context?

[Big10Sioux]

Let's all not forget that the Sioux also had a 12 game winning streak from 1953 to 1964 and hold 62-45-3 all time record (35-30 when the Nickel was on the line). Simply looking at some of those numbers would appear as UND would be historically be a better program sans the NDSU run in the 1980s and the opportunity to win d2 championships which weren't available previously (instead there was Camelia Bowl appearances etc.) The numbers are so interesting with this series (12 year runs, tight games) that it needs to be restarted soon. I'll stay out of this now.

[Matt]

Let's all not forget that the Sioux also had a 12 game winning streak from 1953 to 1964 and hold 62-45-3 all time record (35-30 when the Nickel was on the line). Simply looking at some of those numbers would appear as UND would be historically be a better program sans the NDSU run in the 1980s and the opportunity to win d2 championships which weren't available previously (instead there was Camelia Bowl appearances etc.) The numbers are so interesting with this series (12 year runs, tight games) that it needs to be restarted soon. I'll stay out of this now.

It's no accident that UND holds a commanding edge in the series. I think the program has been more consistent over the life of the series. I wish that consistency vs NDSU had been rewarded with more national championships. However, I can't pretend 1980-1990 didn't happen at NDSU either. Having spent time at both campuses, maybe that allows me to gravy train both programs when they are doing well.

[Herd]

1990 was part of NDSU's streak of dominance over UND (12 consecutive wins from 1981 through 1992). I ignored 1990 for the same reason I ignored 1991 and 1992, UND didn't start their streak of dominance over NDSU until 1993.

As I indicated before, the scholarship reductions brought NDSU back to the pack, and were the trigger for later 90's mediocrity. When the current day NDSU program has the ability to strech with the higher scholarship level, they will again show dominance. The 90's decline was very predictable, and will be similar to what happens in the future to MN St. in the Northern Sun, when they are forced to play down to lower scholarship levels.

[NDSUFREAK10]

When its all said and done, National Championships speak more than Nickel Trophies or what you did for 10 or 15 years. NDSU's dominance in the 80s was far more dominate than und has ever been in any decade.

[Siouxtimestwo]

When its all said and done, National Championships speak more than Nickel Trophies or what you did for 10 or 15 years. NDSU's dominance in the 80s was far more dominate than und has ever been in any decade.

Although I'm obviously a UND fan, one half of my family is pure-blooded NDSU alumni, so I have followed the Bison football team throughout the years just as much, whether it was watching games at family gatherings, friendly ribbing back and forth, or attending games together. NDSU's teams in the 80s are easily the most dominant. They would destroy NDSU's and UND's teams today. They could have beaten their fair share of D1 teams, including half the Big 10. I think any Div. II fan over the age of 30 who argues this point is kidding themselves. Just remember, it was you who said that all that matters is national titles. Just having success for 10-15 years doesn't mean anything. I'm assuming in your definition of nothing you're including beating a 1-10 football team. Because of my family, I'll always be cheering for NDSU to be successful when they're not playing UND. North Dakota is too small a state to not root for itself. Trust me, once you leave North Dakota's borders there are very few people who care about UND vs. NDSU.

I only make this point because UND was always portrayed as arrogant by NDSU fans. In the last couple of years, it seems the shoe is on the other foot, at least when it comes to the younger generation of fans. Judging from your screen name, the wording of your signature, and the fact you feel the need to rile things up on a UND message board, you seem to have a different attitude than the true NDSU fans I've gotten to know through the years. Just remember, it's been 18 years since NDSU accomplished anything on the gridiron, at least according to your definition. Most rational people know that statement isn't true, much the same as your first statement rings hollow. NDSU has had tremendous success, more than their own fans even expected. Enjoy your success for what it is. NDSU fans should have no reason to feel the need to hop onto Siouxsports just to make sure UND fans know it. Know there are UND fans whom are happy to see NDSU succeed at the next level. I know there are NDSU fans whom will be cheering for UND to have success, just as long as they're not beating the Bison. That's the way it should be. Talk to your fellow NDSU fans about what a great ride its been while the wave is still going strong, because you never know when it might come to a crashing halt. If you don't believe me, ask Rocky Hager or any NDSU fan who endured the Babich era.

[bincitysioux]

SME Broadcasting Projection

Here is how the SME Network breaks down the Great West:

1

[Bison Dan]

SME Broadcasting Projection

No way SUU will be last.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

No way SUU will be last.

Are you being serious?

[bincitysioux]

No way SUU will be last.

Are you being serious?

I can see SUU and USD duking it out to stay out of the cellar.

[Bison Dan]

Are you being serious?

You might be surprised! Has anyone addressed the loss of Chappell and Stroup to your team?

[GeauxSioux]

You might be surprised! Has anyone addressed the loss of Chappell and Stroup to your team?

I can see the loss of these two men being a concern as to where UND ends up in the Great West, but what does that have to do with SUU? Are you saying that UND will finish last and that is why you don't see SUU at the bottom?