UND's Next Step

[Blackheart]

I've been following the Sioux since the early 80's, watching them on Prairie Public TV in Minot ND...I have always supported the name and am a proud alumnus...after reading the terms of the settlement with the NCAA (a-holes), I think it's time to move on...Native leaders are saying they don't want the responsibility of retiring the name and that it will cause them more pain...then you have those who want to organize against keeping it. Even if it gets approved in the next three years, they can change their mind any time in the future...WTF is that? Is this what the tribes really want? Are they looking for UND to structure a settlement or tribute? I'm guessing FSU does something like that for the Seminole tribe.

I agree with one of the earlier posters; take a vote now and if they do not want the name to continue then drop the whole thing. We will be UND, don't really need a nickname, although the Cavalry or Roughriders sound pretty cool.

I wonder if we can still play hockey in the old building; it might just come to that...

bummed out...

[darell1976]

I've been following the Sioux since the early 80's, watching them on Prairie Public TV in Minot ND...I have always supported the name and am a proud alumnus...after reading the terms of the settlement with the NCAA (a-holes), I think it's time to move on...Native leaders are saying they don't want the responsibility of retiring the name and that it will cause them more pain...then you have those who want to organize against keeping it. Even if it gets approved in the next three years, they can change their mind any time in the future...WTF is that? Is this what the tribes really want? Are they looking for UND to structure a settlement or tribute? I'm guessing FSU does something like that for the Seminole tribe.

I agree with one of the earlier posters; take a vote now and if they do not want the name to continue then drop the whole thing. We will be UND, don't really need a nickname, although the Cavalry or Roughriders sound pretty cool.

I wonder if we can still play hockey in the old building; it might just come to that...

bummed out...

They are tearing down the old building so that leaves that option out.

[redwing77]

I say work for three years, bend our backs to try to work things out. We go into it FULLY expecting the tribes to turn us away EVERY time but the first time (I'm sure they'll be curious as to what approach we'll take to try to win them over).

There is NO WAY IN HELL the tribes will compromise. They don't want to because even in a compromise, they have to give something up. They don't want to give something up, they want to dictate policy to the majority.

So, while these "negotiations" are taking place, here are a few things I'd do at various stages of the game:

1. Perform market analysis and focus groups to come up with alternate nicknames (after 2 years have elapsed)

1a. Look at ways to switch to new nickname. Financial reasons. Approach the tribes (after 3years are up).

2. Evaluate Native American programming, scholarships, and such for realistic applicability. What I mean is not to cut programs or eliminate scholarships. Far from it. What I mean is to eliminate any policies or requirements therein that place Native Americans over what other groups getting the same services get. For example, if (hypothetically) a Native American student must only maintain a 2.5 GPA to maintain a nursing scholarship, whereas anyone else must maintain a 2.9 GPA, the requirement for Native AMericans should go up to 2.9. So, scholarships would be for Native Americans still, but they'd be no different from anyone else. Keep the programs and schollies, eliminate what makes them so special above non-Native American programs and schollies.

3. Plateau non-NA funding for NA programming (after the 3 years). If they want more money into the programs, set up a direct method of funding the tribes can contribute to to increase it. Cite a costly nickname change as the reason why. The money to change everything has to come from somewhere.

4. I still maintain the tribes should pay most of the costs regarding the removal of NA symbols in the REA. We can go by it by using the stupid...I mean sensitive methodology that the pro-changers use: If moving a garbage can over the marble logos is offensive, then surely the jackhammers removing the logos would be too, right? So, the tribes pay for it and can supervise removal and perhaps have NA workers do the job. They can then purchase all the excess Fighting Sioux gear at wholesale where they can take to their reservations and burn them for all we care. UND would then be responsible for installing the new motif. As for the statue out front....I say take it off the pedestal and melt it down to make a new bronze statue of whatever we change to (I hope it is Fighting Cavalry).

No donations. No freebies. We know they don't want to work with us. If they did, they already would have. This was no settlement. This was a victory for Bernard DUMBASS Franklin and his PC hippie friends.

[Hayduke]

I say work for three years, bend our backs to try to work things out. We go into it FULLY expecting the tribes to turn us away EVERY time but the first time (I'm sure they'll be curious as to what approach we'll take to try to win them over).

There is NO WAY IN HELL the tribes will compromise. They don't want to because even in a compromise, they have to give something up. They don't want to give something up, they want to dictate policy to the majority.

So, while these "negotiations" are taking place, here are a few things I'd do at various stages of the game:

1. Perform market analysis and focus groups to come up with alternate nicknames (after 2 years have elapsed)

1a. Look at ways to switch to new nickname. Financial reasons. Approach the tribes (after 3years are up).

2. Evaluate Native American programming, scholarships, and such for realistic applicability. What I mean is not to cut programs or eliminate scholarships. Far from it. What I mean is to eliminate any policies or requirements therein that place Native Americans over what other groups getting the same services get. For example, if (hypothetically) a Native American student must only maintain a 2.5 GPA to maintain a nursing scholarship, whereas anyone else must maintain a 2.9 GPA, the requirement for Native AMericans should go up to 2.9. So, scholarships would be for Native Americans still, but they'd be no different from anyone else. Keep the programs and schollies, eliminate what makes them so special above non-Native American programs and schollies.

3. Plateau non-NA funding for NA programming (after the 3 years). If they want more money into the programs, set up a direct method of funding the tribes can contribute to to increase it. Cite a costly nickname change as the reason why. The money to change everything has to come from somewhere.

4. I still maintain the tribes should pay most of the costs regarding the removal of NA symbols in the REA. We can go by it by using the stupid...I mean sensitive methodology that the pro-changers use: If moving a garbage can over the marble logos is offensive, then surely the jackhammers removing the logos would be too, right? So, the tribes pay for it and can supervise removal and perhaps have NA workers do the job. They can then purchase all the excess Fighting Sioux gear at wholesale where they can take to their reservations and burn them for all we care. UND would then be responsible for installing the new motif. As for the statue out front....I say take it off the pedestal and melt it down to make a new bronze statue of whatever we change to (I hope it is Fighting Cavalry).

No donations. No freebies. We know they don't want to work with us. If they did, they already would have. This was no settlement. This was a victory for Bernard DUMBASS Franklin and his PC hippie friends.

I don't agree with this course of action.

Yeah, I'm pissed that it appears that the nickname is gone. Yeah, I doubt that the tribal leadership is going to back the current nickname.

But, this smacks of revenge and will only justify the position of the tribal leaders that oppose the nickname. You would just add fuel to the already raging fire.

I agree with the pragmatist's approach. Send athletes/coaches/students to the reservations in an effort to interact with them and show them what UND is all about. Even if it doesn't work, the goodwill it generates will, in the long run, do a hell of a lot more good than a slap in the face.

[SoCalSiouxFan]

No new nickname if we can't use Fighting Sioux: name should be just North Dakota.

That way we will forever be remembered as the Fighting Sioux.

If we had to have a new nickname, how about:

Fighting French Canadians - In honor of the States early history when many inhabitants were French Canadian and in honor of the many Canadians that played for the Fighting Sioux. However, would the NC$$ make us get approval from both France and Canada before something like this was acceptable to them?

Fighting Scouts - In honor of the brave Scouts that served during the "Indian Wars" era. This way we could keep the existing logo with a simple modification, just add a Calvary hat. Also Scouts is more of a generic non-racial term so local tribal approval would not be necessary.

Fighting Farmers - In honor of the traditional family farm and to give recognition to their fight or struggle just to keep the farm. However, would be sort of cool to see NDSU fans try to start a "farmers suck" chant.

Seems nothing can adequately replace Fighting Sioux. So just a simple North Dakota sounds good to me.

[PCM]

Fighting Scouts - In honor of the brave Scouts that served during the "Indian Wars" era. This way we could keep the existing logo with a simple modification, just add a Calvary hat. Also Scouts is more of a generic non-racial term so local tribal approval would not be necessary.

I actually like this idea. Plus, scouts of various races served in North Dakota (Buffalo Soldiers of the 10th Cavalry and scouts from different tribes that served the U.S. military). Of course, the tribes had their own scouts. It could be argued that "scouts" includes a very diverse group of people.

[Sioux-cia]

I'm with others that have stated that UND would essentially be held hostage.

I would like to work with the tribes BUT I hate this 'clause'.

Do Florida/Utah/Michigan have the same clause in their NC$$ exemptions?

[PCM]

Do Florida/Utah/Michigan have the same clause in their NC$$ exemptions?

As far as I know, if any of the tribes that gave the schools their support withdraw that support, then any school that loses that support goes back on the NCAA's "hostile and abusive" list. I don't know how that makes UND more of a "hostage" than any other school that's received an exemption. UND would actually get a year to transition to a new name if it lost tribal support while other schools would have to do it immediately. In that respect, we're better off than they are.

[Taz Boy]

As far as I know, if any of the tribes that gave the schools their support withdraw that support, then any school that loses that support goes back on the NCAA's "hostile and abusive" list. I don't know how that makes UND more of a "hostage" than any other school that's received an exemption. UND would actually get a year to transition to a new name if it lost tribal support while other schools would have to do it immediately. In that respect, we're better off than they are.

Florida St. was exempted before the policy had even been communicated on the West Coast. I'm guessing they will be able to work something out with the NCAA in the event there's some "confusion" or "mis-communication" regarding their own tribal support.

[fargosioux]

Doesn't Florida State only have approval from one Seminole tribe, or am I remembering this incorrectly?

[star2city]

Doesn't Florida State only have approval from one Seminole tribe, or am I remembering this incorrectly?

Central Michigan only has the approval of one Michigan Chippewa Tribe, the Saginaw Chippewa of Mount Pleasant.

Some of the other Chippewa/Ojibwe tribes in Michigan do not approve of CMU's name, based on media reports. There remains an inconsistency in the NCAA policy which determines what state tribes and how many (one or more) are required to approve the name. Although the lawsuit addressed this, the UND/NCAA settlement didn't. Technically there are three Sioux reservations in ND, as a portion of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux reservation is in ND.

[PCM]

There remains an inconsistency in the NCAA policy which determines what state tribes and how many (one or more) are required to approve the name.

I don't think the NCAA believes it's being inconsistent. As I recall, the association maintains that as long as it doesn't receive a specific complaint from a tribe about the use of its name, it assumes that no complaint exists and makes no effort to find out.

Depending on which statement one wants to believe, either members of the Spirit Lake tribal council support UND's use of the nickname or they're against it. Of course, the NCAA chooses to believe that the tribe is against the Fighting Sioux nickname while UND believes it has the tribe's support.

From the NCAA's point of view, the issue isn't that UND needs to get the permission of two tribes, it's that the NCAA believes there are two tribes in North Dakota who are on record as opposing UND's use of the Sioux name. I don't expect anyone here to think this makes sense because I think it's nonsense. I'm just attempting to explain why the NCAA thinks it's necessary for UND to seek the approval of both the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes.

[Goon]

Central Michigan only has the approval of one Michigan Chippewa Tribe, the Saginaw Chippewa of Mount Pleasant.

Some of the other Chippewa/Ojibwe tribes in Michigan do not approve of CMU's name, based on media reports. There remains an inconsistency in the NCAA policy which determines what state tribes and how many (one or more) are required to approve the name. Although the lawsuit addressed this, the UND/NCAA settlement didn't. Technically there are three Sioux reservations in ND, as a portion of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux reservation is in ND.

It was in UND's lawsuit paperwork that was released when this first went to court.

It still seems the NCAA is being inconsistant.

[Goon]

Fighting Farmers - In honor of the traditional family farm and to give recognition to their fight or struggle just to keep the farm. However, would be sort of cool to see NDSU fans try to start a "farmers suck" chant.

I never looked at Farmers as being a good mascot.

[PCM]

It still seems the NCAA is being inconsistant.

We agreed to it, so it's a moot point.

[Goon]

We agreed to it, so it's a moot point.

so are we preaching to the choir then?

[PCM]

so are we preaching to the choir then?

What do you mean we? I never preach.

[Chewey]

So, are there any predictions? What do you REALLY think will happen? Does anyone REALLY think the tribes will agree to it? Do you think the AG was just being two-faced when he indicated that he thought there would be a good possibility of working something out with the tribes? I'd like to believe that there is some truth to this but maybe I'm just in denial. The reservations are well-springs of apathy. If His Horse Is Thunder and the tribal councils of both reservations remain as intransigent as they have been, I'm not at all too sanguine. Does anyone really agree with the AG on this?

[Goon]

So, are there any predictions? What do you REALLY think will happen? Does anyone REALLY think the tribes will agree to it?

0 chance. Never, unless He!! freezes over. That is the part that I don't like about the settlement, if they had gone with dropping the fighting I would liked the agreement more. Both side of the argument are so polarized, having editorials like the one that were written today at the herald don't help.

I would start the process to adopt a name that is acceptable for the Alumni, I wouldn't spend a lot of time consoling the people that forced this change I believe they have done enough, they got their big win. I would also suggest Flickertails not be part of the process. I believe like some have stated here UND and the state of ND goes to the tribal councils and we try to negoiate it going to be precieved as strong arming by UND and it is just going to get uglier... I can only imagine what the pro-name change people will spin this.

[PCM]

So, are there any predictions?

I predict that if we assume that nothing can be done and do nothing, there is zero chance that anything good will happen.

What do you REALLY think will happen?

I would hope that people with influence on the reservations will reflect on how much the tribes have to lose by giving up the nickname and ask themselves whether what will be lost is worth what will be gained. If they decide that it isn't, I hope they can rally public support for their viewpoint and get their tribal governments to reconsider their positions.

Does anyone REALLY think the tribes will agree to it?

I have no idea. I wouldn't rule out the possibility, however.

Do you think the AG was just being two-faced when he indicated that he thought there would be a good possibility of working something out with the tribes?

No, I think he was giving his honest assessment of the situation. After all, he's been in the position of negotiating with the tribes and has reached agreements where it appeared there was no room for consensus. If the guy who's been in the arena thinks it's possible, who am I to say it isn't?

Does anyone really agree with the AG on this?

It doesn't really matter whether I agree or disagree with Stenehjem. The settlement has been signed. If we don't try to make use of the opportunity we have over the next three years, then we have only ourselves to blame if nothing happens. I think the best thing Sioux fans can do at this point is keep the pressure on their top elected officials and frequently remind them that we expect them to do whatever they can to work with the tribal governments to resolve this.

[Shawn-O]

It's interesting how evenly divided the vote is.

[Goon]

I predict that if we assume that nothing can be done and do nothing, there is zero chance that anything good will happen.

I would hope that people with influence on the reservations will reflect on how much the tribes have to lose by giving up the nickname and ask themselves whether what will be lost is worth what will be gained. If they decide that it isn't, I hope they can rally public support for their viewpoint and get their tribal governments to reconsider their positions.

I have no idea. I wouldn't rule out the possibility, however.

No, I think he was giving his honest assessment of the situation. After all, he's been in the position of negotiating with the tribes and has reached agreements where it appeared there was no room for consensus. If the guy who's been in the arena thinks it's possible, who am I to say it isn't?

It doesn't really matter whether I agree or disagree with Stenehjem. The settlement has been signed. If we don't try to make use of the opportunity we have over the next three years, then we have only ourselves to blame if nothing happens. I think the best thing Sioux fans can do at this point is keep the pressure on their top elected officials and frequently remind them that we expect them to do whatever they can to work with the tribal governments to resolve this.

PCM I love your work and have no bone to pick with you but I think respectfully there is no chance 0, Nada, Nix, Nine, Nay the name will stay fighting Sioux the pro-name change people right now as we are discussing the issue. the Pro-name change people are probably lobbying the two tribals governments; saying don't cave, don't cave, don't cave. In fact would bet you the minute that settlement was announced the full court press went into motion. Seriously, the tribal governments might get some heat from their own people, they will not budge.

I would also incourage the powers to be to offer nothing, I like some of the proposals that have been suggested. Simply ask the Tribes hey what do you have to say about the nick name. Take their advisement then drop it period. We are living in a fantasy world if we think Ron his Horse Thunger will ever change his mind or let the Nick name come to a FULL TRIBAL VOTE of all the people that want to vote on the issue.

While I hate the settlement, because I think UND gave up way to much to the NCAA, I do like the fact the arena won't be razed, so that part of the UND history will be there forever, in fact no one can stop us from wearing, or chanting Sioux. Hoever, we must keep our pride as a University and finally accept that we are living on borrowed time. I am also still not voting for the present AG.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Goon

[PCM]

[PCM I love your work and have no bone to pick with you but I think respectfully there is no chance 0, Nada, Nix, Nine, Nay the name will stay fighting Sioux the pro-name change people right now as we are discussing the issue. the Pro-name change people are probably lobbying the two tribals governments; saying don't cave, don't cave, don't cave. In fact would bet you the minute that settlement was announced the full court press went into motion. Seriously, the tribal governments might get some heat from their own people, they will not budge.

You might be exactly right. I really don't know. What I do know is that as in hockey, you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. So I am for taking a shot, even if the chances are slim that it will succeed. That's all I'm saying.

[MplsBison]

Even if they do agree, all that has to happen is for a new tribe leader to be elected that doesn't like the deal and he can call it off any time he wants.

[Sioux Hockey Fanatic]

Well the tribes will lose out on all the public service announcements and history lessons that go on at UND events if the name is dropped. How many grade school kids are taught about the history of the Native Americans in school anymore? There would not be any particular reason to continue having the the traditonal ceremonies at athletic events or on campus events that attract a large audience that may not have attended for the sole purpose of experiencing Native American Culture.

I have not heard of any recent (last 5 years) of any specific racially motivated acts towards Native Americans or other minority groups on UND campus or in GF. I just heard of a racially motivated act at St. Thomas in the Twin Cities and they are a private Catholic Univeristy. Go figure...