Negotiated Settlement?

[star2city]

Don't you think that if the nickname was changed to Cavalry, Roughriders, or Cowboys people would see this as an attack against the Sioux as the numerous incidents that occurred in the past and as a backlash against the opponents of the Sioux name although I think Roughriders in more associated against the Spanish (Hispanics) than the Sioux? Ultimately these will be judged just as offensive if the same standard is used.

That's precisely why UND athletic leadership needs to be proactive on a nickname change while we still have the Fighting Sioux name. If PC group that forced the Fighting Sioux change subsequently object to Roughriders or Cavalry (which are both important historically to ND) after the FS name has been dropped, their minority voice will carry the day then too. If the Fighting Sioux name is dropped and Roughriders installed, the anti-nickname people could still claim a victory and any further squacking by them about a new nickname would be viewed as controlling.

[Goon]

We got that, and it's something that no other school got. And if any of the tribes with resolutions currently supporting Florida State, Central Michigan, Utah, Mississippi College or Catawba change their minds, it's something that they won't get.

So If I am not mistaken didn't Central Michigan only get one tribe to support them and had a bunch of Chippewa tribes that did not support the use of the name, If I am not mistaken I thought I read that in the court brief. It seems that in this case we still end up with UND having the goal post pushed back on us.

I still think this settlement is a load of crap we have won nothing execpt time to face what is eventually going to happen, it will be the same result that we are facing today. There will be diolog there will be a bunch of offers and smoozing but the name will change. If anyone thinks otherwise I would love to have a friendly wager with them, I would be willing to bet anyone the result will be nothing but that result of a new nick name. I am woundering if this settlement UND was the best that UND was going to get. I can't believe our lawyers allowed the NCAA still to have/get the upper hand and look as if the NCAA was dictating the terms of this settlement, wow, they pulled back their statement that UND was not hostile and abusive, in the end that a$$ brand still got what he wanted.

By the way; the NCAA is the defendant are they not? It's like punishing the victim in my opinion. I think what what Ira Murphy has said is good and I would like to see UND take this mind set:

would initiate plans to change the name or simply drop the name effective next school year. If one or more of the tribes wish the privilage and recognition that goes along with being associated with UND athletics then let them request the privilage and UND can decide if they are honorable enough to continue the name.. If they don't, I wouldn't approach them. They have chosen to no longer associate their history with UND and I would simply say too bad for you and ignore them. No protests, no harrassments, no special programs but make sure they are treated with the same fairness and respect as any other of our students or our states citizens. Some day they may regret the decision but who cares? It is their choice now. (1.) Their leaders seem to want to polarize their people and kids and so I would say good luck and you are welcome to go to school here, all you need is and ACT of 23(or whatever it is) and a GPA of 2.5 (or whatever it is). You will not be placed on committees or given places of honor that you don't earn with your own deeds, same as anyone else. They are not to be mistreated harrassed or in anyway treated differently.

(2.) Many of them will say agreed and many of them will say wait a minute, that isn't what we want. My answer is that of today your leaders have decided you no longer wish to hold a place of honor and respect at UND based on your history. It was a great run, but good luck. We will get on with the next chapter of a storied and proud heritage at UND without you. I am a big supporter of the name and the great logo but I wouldn't be willing to prostitute the University and especially Fighting Sioux atheltics to a group of people who are not interested in continuing this relationship. It is a bit like the guy whose wife has been visiting all of the other guys in the neighborhood while he works the night shift and still thinks he can make it work.

I like this approach and I hope we go that route. Here is a thought once the anti-name change people will have their prize the changing of the Fighting Sioux name what is this vocal minority going to bitch about next? I mean will they be happy? Will this be enough, will have gotten what they want?

[PCM]

So If I am not mistaken didn't Central Michigan only get one tribe to support them and had a bunch of Chippewa tribes that did not support the use of the name, If I am not mistaken I thought I read that in the court brief. It seems that in this case we still end up with UND having the goal post pushed back on us.

The NCAA's position is that if they don't receive specific complaints from specific tribes about specific tribal names being used, then they don't make any effort to find out whether or not other tribes in the state object. Now, I think this is a BS approach that's used because it conveniently works out to the NCAA's advantage, but I don't really see a different standard being applied to UND.

In UND's case, we have one tribe in the state that's officially on record as objecting to the Fighting Sioux nickname and another tribe that either supports, objects to or doesn't give a damn about the nickname, depending on which way the wind's blowing. Keep in mind that part of the Sisseton-Wahpeton reservation is in North Dakota, so we're probably fortunate that the NCAA didn't require us to get that tribe's permission, too.

We've got three years without NCAA interference to work out something with the tribes. From the time the NCAA implemented the policy until the three years gained from the settlement, we will have had more than five years to attempt to gain tribal support.

At what point do we decide that we've spent enough time, money and effort to fight the NCAA and work out a compromise with the tribes? That's a political decision. Our elected leaders have bought UND another three years. It's up to us to decide what to do with that time.

Look at where we started. The NCAA originally said that UND not only had to stop using the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, it also had to cover up all the names and logos in REA if it was to host the west regionals. We beat the NCAA on that score.

UND was the only school that pushed the NCAA's so-called appeals process to the limit. It was the only school that took the NCAA to court. In spite of some legal experts saying that UND had no chance, it won a preliminary injunction for the better part of a year that enabled us to continue to use the name and host playoff games. And even though we were repeatedly told we couldn't win in court, we extracted concessions from the NCAA that no other school received or is ever likely to receive.

To portray this settlement as UND caving into the NCAA is patently ridiculous. At some point, we need to admit that we've done as much as it makes sense to do and move on.

[gjw007]

To portray this settlement as UND caving into the NCAA is patently ridiculous. At some point, we need to admit that we've done as much as it makes sense to do and move on.

True, there has been some give by the NCAA and UND has, to a point, proven its point that the NCAA didn't follow its own rules but in the end, the result will be a delay of 3 or 4 years with UND probably changing its nickname to match what the NCAA executive committee desired at which point the NCAA will have won (if they didn't, UND would keep its current nickname). The only real thing it does is not force UND to abandon its past by the NCAA requirement to remove all the logo. I agree, it is time to move on.

[The Whistler]

To portray this settlement as UND caving into the NCAA is patently ridiculous. At some point, we need to admit that we've done as much as it makes sense to do and move on.

I don't agree with that. We never had our day in court. I could live with losing but caving in to a bunch like the NCAA is ridiculous.

On the other hand we are stuck with the deal that the Attorney General got for us (But not with the Attorney General). So I'll agree that it's time to move on.

[larsensa]

It is sad that the NCAA decided they should control schools and all 18 schools let them. This settlement means we will probably need to go to the NCAA to make sure they are okay without whatever logo and mascot we choose in the future. I don't understand how such an obvious monopoly and bully is able to be in existence in the U.S. It is too bad the 18 schools that were put on this social engineering list didn't pull together and sue the NCAA as a single entity.

[Siouxtimestwo]

One thing I'm curious about is why do we have to adopt a new nickname? Is this part of the settlement or is it an NCAA rule? I'm not a big fan of the settlement, but I do think we at least got to continue using the Ralph. If us having to choose a new mascot is part of the settlement, while other schools can go without a mascot, then my opinion will certainly change. They will always be the Fighting Sioux to me, but I think losing that name will be much easier to stomach if we merely have no more nickname compared to a new one that no one supports.

I also agree, it is time to move on and start the procedure to either drop the name or find a new one if we have to. This point has been stated many times, but I'll echo it again anyways: We cannot continue to leave our fine university at the whim of tribal leaders who could care less about their own constituents opinions, much less ours. Besides, even if we do reach an agreement with current tribal leaders, in 3 years those people won't be in office anymore. We'll have to continue going through this process every six months because that's about how long these leaders last.

I also believe that once the nickname is gone, our Native American programs should follow the name out the door. There's no reason we should do anything more for the tribes than NDSU or any other publicly funded university in the state currently does. If a Native American students has the scores and grades to get into UND or it's medical or law school, then good for him or her, but otherwise, no preferential treatment.

[sioux7>5]

I have a thought about all this. I hope we get to keep the nickname, but here is a side that I am thinking about. Maybe Myles Brand leaves the NCAA to attempt and pursue a bigger office. Then the new head of the NCAA says that this policy is ridiculous and allows UND to keep the nickname without tribal support. I am just saying anything can heppen. I also think that UND would have never agreed to this had they not thought they could get an agreement in place.

[SiouxCrioux1]

One thing I'm curious about is why do we have to adopt a new nickname? Is this part of the settlement or is it an NCAA rule? I'm not a big fan of the settlement, but I do think we at least got to continue using the Ralph. If us having to choose a new mascot is part of the settlement, while other schools can go without a mascot, then my opinion will certainly change. They will always be the Fighting Sioux to me, but I think losing that name will be much easier to stomach if we merely have no more nickname compared to a new one that no one supports.

I also agree, it is time to move on and start the procedure to either drop the name or find a new one if we have to. This point has been stated many times, but I'll echo it again anyways: We cannot continue to leave our fine university at the whim of tribal leaders who could care less about their own constituents opinions, much less ours. Besides, even if we do reach an agreement with current tribal leaders, in 3 years those people won't be in office anymore. We'll have to continue going through this process every six months because that's about how long these leaders last.

I also believe that once the nickname is gone, our Native American programs should follow the name out the door. There's no reason we should do anything more for the tribes than NDSU or any other publicly funded university in the state currently does. If a Native American students has the scores and grades to get into UND or it's medical or law school, then good for him or her, but otherwise, no preferential treatment.

I agree with everything you just said. The no nickname thing is what i thought since this happened. Does anyone else think if we were to get a new mascot and logo it would really make the Ralph look cheap. I mean you would be walking in the halls and see a sioux logo in granite on the floor, then look on the wall and it says (insert new name here). I think it would be rediculous. Plus I think if we got to have no nickname it would be a moral victory for the ones that really care. This way we could call ourselves the Sioux and wear our sioux gear and not have to listen to all the complaining of others.

[PCM]

I don't agree with that. We never had our day in court.

And if we had and won, then what? We'd be in court again fighting an NCAA appeal. All it would have done is bought us some more time, which is exactly what we have right now without the time and expense of a protracted legal battle.

I could live with losing but caving in to a bunch like the NCAA is ridiculous.

We didn't cave into the NCAA. We won concessions from them. Your characterization that we caved is what's ridiculous.

On the other hand we are stuck with the deal that the Attorney General got for us (But not with the Attorney General).

If you think that an attorney general who got a higher percentage of the popular vote than Kent Conrad is going to be voted out of office over this settlement, you are delusional.

[mksioux]

I agree with everything you just said. The no nickname thing is what i thought since this happened. Does anyone else think if we were to get a new mascot and logo it would really make the Ralph look cheap. I mean you would be walking in the halls and see a sioux logo in granite on the floor, then look on the wall and it says (insert new name here). I think it would be rediculous. Plus I think if we got to have no nickname it would be a moral victory for the ones that really care. This way we could call ourselves the Sioux and wear our sioux gear and not have to listen to all the complaining of others.

If you read the settlement agreement literally, it appears UND has to adopt a new nickname, not simply drop the Fighting Sioux. This is the only part of the settlement that really makes me mad.

[The Whistler]

And if we had and won, then what? We'd be in court again fighting an NCAA appeal. All it would have done is bought us some more time, which is exactly what we have right now without the time and expense of a protracted legal battle.

We didn't cave into the NCAA. We won concessions from them. Your characterization that we caved is what's ridiculous.

If you think that an attorney general who got a higher percentage of the popular vote than Kent Conrad is going to be voted out of office over this settlement, you are delusional.

Concessions? You yourself said that we should move on. So what does three years do for us? We get to keep what, some statues that will no longer fit in with the new team. I guess the only thing I care about in the whole concession list is the marble artwork in the floor (I guess keeping the NCAA acting as the Khmer Rouge and destroying artwork is worth something). I suppose you also can say that the pictures of former Sioux is important however it seems outrageous that you couldn't display pictures of former teammembers but then this is ridiculous.

I think we should have had our day in court. Did we have a weak case? Do we think we wouldn't have had a fair trial (4 of the 5 Supreme Court justices have ties to UND). I think the case would have been decided by law, but if I was on the other side I wouldn't have been comfortable. Still I could have lived with losing in court, I can't just accept not trying to win.

Stenejhem's not been in the news much. What good things has he done? Who even ran against him last time. I've always been a loyal Republican voter but I'm not going to vote for him again. I want someone competent in the office and for someone to spend a million bucks and not come up with a case he could take to court doesn't speak to any competence.

Face it PCM the NCAA won what they wanted. We didn't lose we gave it away.

[PCM]

If you read the settlement agreement literally, it appears UND has to adopt a new nickname, not simply drop the Fighting Sioux. This is the only part of the settlement that really makes me mad.

I don't understand why this makes anyone angry. Do you think it's a realistic possibility that UND would adopt no nickname? I don't.

[PCM]

Face it PCM the NCAA won what they wanted. We didn't lose we gave it away.

Assuming that we can't come to some type of agreement with the tribes is what's giving it away. You're the one doing that, not me.

[SiouxCrioux1]

I don't understand why this makes anyone angry. Do you think it's a realistic possibility that UND would adopt no nickname? I don't.

\

If there is overwhelming support from fans and alumni wouldnt they kind of have to?

[The Whistler]

Assuming that we can't come to some type of agreement with the tribes is what's giving it away. You're the one doing that, not me.

Well I do think we should give them one last chance. I don't want to beg, I don't want to threaten and I don't want to buy them off. The reality is that it's up to the tribal leadership now. Didn't you also say it was time to move on?

I'm not going to quit going to their Casino's (mostly because I don't go now because I don't like losing money). I won't change my stand towards special programs for Indians (I'm in favor of a few of them (INMED) but by and large I think everyone should be treated the same by government). And I'm not going to be rude to anyone (because I think that's wrong.)

Added!

I do take the tribes word today that they will not extend support.

[Ranger]

I agree also.

10-4...

I would hate to see this great University subject itself to three years of extortion and obstructionism prevalent today in tribal government.

[PCM]

If there is overwhelming support from fans and alumni wouldnt they kind of have to?

Overwhelming support to have no name? Sorry, but I don't see that happening.

[mksioux]

I don't understand why this makes anyone angry. Do you think it's a realistic possibility that UND would adopt no nickname? I don't.

Not forever, but maybe for a few years. I don't like the idea of a time-forced and contrived nickname.

[PCM]

Well I do think we should give them one last chance. I don't want to beg, I don't want to threaten and I don't want to buy them off.

We're in total agreement on that point.

Didn't you also say it was time to move on?

I meant moving on to use the time that we've gained to our best advantage. At this point, I am not conceding anything.

[The Whistler]

Overwhelming support to have no name? Sorry, but I don't see that happening.

Assuming that we don't get approval then pick a new name. Let the kids build a new tradition.

[ScottM]

I was out of the country, and this what I return to: A complete and utter capitulation that makes the French defense in 1940 look brave. If this is the "best" the AG could do, then his lawyering skills have not improved since his days in private practice. UND gained nothing, except a period of time to try and gain the support and assent of a bunch of ungrateful and/or apathetic maggots.

I tend to agree with those who favor getting rid of the name sooner than later, and avoid having UND being extorted, bullied and cajoled by the NC$$ or the tribes any longer. I also do not favor adopting another name/logo, nor do I favor any more pandering to the tribes, or expanding any more outreach programs. Put the money to better use. As we used to say in the army: They can "f*#k off and die".

And you can quote me to your heart's content.

[Chewey]

What realistic possibility is there for working out a deal with the tribes? Can they vote on it or would the PC powers that be actually prevent it? One would conclude that the tribes would agree to something as long as some revenue flowed their way and helped conditions on the reservation. Perhaps some sort of arrangement like FSU has with the Seminole tribe? I'm still not clear on what symbols are going to stay at the Ralph. I can't really imagine that all of the logos on every chair and on every piece of marble would have to go but maybe I'm in denial. I too think we did ok with the NC$$. If we had won the suit, I still have a difficult time believing that the NC$$ would have had the votes or political guts to implement a broad-range policy, through a vote of its membership, that would have roped in FSU and the like. For that reason, I am disappointed that they did not press on.

[The Whistler]

What realistic possibility is there for working out a deal with the tribes? Can they vote on it or would the PC powers that be actually prevent it? One would conclude that the tribes would agree to something as long as some revenue flowed their way and helped conditions on the reservation. Perhaps some sort of arrangement like FSU has with the Seminole tribe? I'm still not clear on what symbols are going to stay at the Ralph. I can't really imagine that all of the logos on every chair and on every piece of marble would have to go but maybe I'm in denial. I too think we did ok with the NC$$. If we had won the suit, I still have a difficult time believing that the NC$$ would have had the votes or political guts to implement a broad-range policy, through a vote of its membership, that would have roped in FSU and the like. For that reason, I am disappointed that they did not press on.

The settlement is here. The appendix covers what our Attorney didn't give away.

The agreement says that the tribal governments have to agree to us using the name. The rank and file seem to support us using the name (or at least don't mind) but their support seems understandably weak. (Most don't have a UND connection).

The powers that be at the NCAA are selected and I guess controlled by the universities' presidents. They aren't a reasonable bunch so yes, I can see them ganging up on a few smaller schools. Our only chance was to have our day in court, which we never will have.

[gjw007]

I also believe that once the nickname is gone, our Native American programs should follow the name out the door. There's no reason we should do anything more for the tribes than NDSU or any other publicly funded university in the state currently does. If a Native American students has the scores and grades to get into UND or it's medical or law school, then good for him or her, but otherwise, no preferential treatment.

I disagree. One thing the University needs to do is differentiate itself from other Universities such as is done through the Aerospace program. The Native American programs does that for UND. NDSU has been trying to do that with various levels of success over the past few years. Rather than remain in a box, it is time to be forward looking.