DI Conference Speculation

[MplsBison]

Texas couldn't withstand the in-state political firestorm that would occur if they left for the Big Ten without regional rivals. The Big Ten could, for all practical purposes, destroy the Big 12 if it took its crown jewels: Texas, Oklahoma (football), Kansas (basketball), Missouri (Gateway between Big 10 and 12)

There would be hell to pay if A&M wasn't included in this package.

Big 10 South:

Illinois - Missouri

Kansas - Oklahoma

Texas - Texas A&M

Ind - Purdue

Big 10 North:

Minn - Iowa

Wisc - NW

Mich - Mich St

Ohio St - Penn St

However, Oklahoma is not a member of the AAU. Not sure if it would matter, or perhaps the CIC could fast track that?

[FargoBison]

New DI membership standards, some could have an impact on the Summit(especially #8)...

The Division I Leadership Council will put the finishing touches on its recommendations for Division I membership standards at its Thursday (Jan 14) meeting at the NCAA Convention in Atlanta.

The DI moratorium lasts until August 2011, and the Leadership Council hopes to sponsor appropriate legislative changes from its recommendations in the 2010-11 legislative cycle.

The Council

[star2city]

New DI membership standards, some could have an impact on the Summit(especially #8)...

8. Eliminate the designations of

[Hawkster]

New DI membership standards, some could have an impact on the Summit(especially #8)...

The Division I Leadership Council will put the finishing touches on its recommendations for Division I membership standards at its Thursday (Jan 14) meeting at the NCAA Convention in Atlanta.

The DI moratorium lasts until August 2011, and the Leadership Council hopes to sponsor appropriate legislative changes from its recommendations in the 2010-11 legislative cycle.

The Council

[star2city]

So, does # 7 prevent new schools from being D2 in every sport except hockey and then turn around and play D1 hockey like we did?

Appears Moorhead State's dreams of playing DI hockey are gone.

[Hambone]

So, does # 7 prevent new schools from being D2 in every sport except hockey and then turn around and play D1 hockey like we did?

I'm not sure - do they fall under the exception that says they can if there is not a championship in DII?

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm not sure - do they fall under the exception that says they can if there is not a championship in DII?

That's what it looks like to me. Division II schools could play Division I in sports like hockey where there is not a Division II championship. So Moorhead State could still have a Division I hockey program as long as the rest of the athletic program was in Division II.

[Shawn-O]

That's what it looks like to me. Division II schools could play Division I in sports like hockey where there is not a Division II championship. So Moorhead State could still have a Division I hockey program as long as the rest of the athletic program was in Division II.

Looks like the current Division III hockey schools "playing up" will be grandfathered in.

[star2city]

That's what it looks like to me. Division II schools could play Division I in sports like hockey where there is not a Division II championship. So Moorhead State could still have a Division I hockey program as long as the rest of the athletic program was in Division II.

It's more complicated than that.

Technically, it depends how they write the final rules. DII men's hockey still technically exists: its championship has been suspended due to insufficient teams. DI and DII women's hockey are under a collegiate championship banner: neither DI or DII exists in that sport. The "DI" women's championship isn't a DI championship, but a collegiate championship.

Skiing, rifle, men's volleyball, and women's hockey all play for collegiate championships, not DI (even though men's volleyball and women's hockey have DIII championships too). Any DII school can compete in those sports without using a one-sport exemption.

As currently written, Moorhead St would need a one-sport exemption to compete in men's DI hockey, but technically doesn't need one for women's hockey. If the one-sport exemption is discontinued, Moorhead St wouldn't be able to play up in men's hockey unless the "DI" label is removed and replaced with "collegiate".

[darell1976]

Agree that #8 is absolutely huge. The Summit could invite, for instance, Nebraska-Omaha to fill out the I-29 corridor. It also removes the constraints of being forced to add UTPA or Chicago State, as every DI school would now be "equal" once the reclassification period is over. The threat of the Summit losing an autobid is significantly reduced. The Atlantic Sun seems safe now too: no wonder they are looking at DII's Lincoln Memorial and Francis marion as additions. Instead of individual schools determining when they want to go DI, conferences determine who they want to invite. It also seems likely that conferences can more easily reconfigure their geographies: even "trading" schools would be acceptable. As an example, if the Summit lost Oakland, IPFW, and IUPUI to the Horizon, the Summit could actually invite Montana, Montana St and still maintain it's autobid. That would have been impossible before.

Strangely, if these rules were in place this past decade, it's doubtful that any NCC school would have been DI now.

Interesting that these rules would also allow an easier move to FBS, as "core" requirements are now gone. The WAC will be needed schools from FCS soon, so a school like UC-Davis or even UND - once the transition is complete - would immediately help the WAC meet conference requirements.

Don't they still have attendance rules i believe its 15,000 on average per season for 3 years or you could be booted out. If thats the case that rules UND out until we get a new stadium.

[star2city]

Don't they still have attendance rules i believe its 15,000 on average per season for 3 years or you could be booted out. If thats the case that rules UND out until we get a new stadium.

The attendance rule isn't 15,000 for 3 seasons, but 15,000 once every 3 years. It's rarely enforced. The main issues are having a stadium capacity of 15,000, the financial support, and an FBS conference membership. But with the WAC likely losing 2-3 teams and if UCDavis and/or Cal Poly get the call to move up, UND could be painted into a corner.

[The Sicatoka]

Actually ... (says the guy with the 2008-10 NCAA DI Manual on his screen) ...

20.9.7.3 Football-Attendance Requirements. [FBS]

Once every two years on a rolling basis, the institution shall average at least 15,000 in actual or paid attendance for all home football games. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04, 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)

20.9.7.3.1 Counting Attendance. [FBS]

20.9.7.3.1.1 Actual Attendance. [FBS] For purposes of computing actual attendance figures, an individual may be counted if any one of the following conditions applies: (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04, 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)

(a) Attendees are issued tickets that are collected on admission to the game and retained; (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

(b) Attendees enter through and are counted by a turnstile that is monitored by a representative of the department of athletics who verifies in writing the accuracy of the count on a per-game basis; or (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

[MplsBison]

That's not correct either.

If they just used actual attendance, then they could give tickets away to meet the minimum.

They have to sell 15k tickets on average, every game over a rolling 2 year period. And only tickets that are sold for "enough" money count.

So if the stadium's most expensive ticket (a suite ticket for example) is $50, then they can't go off and sell 10k tickets for $0.50 each. It has to be some significant fraction of the most expensive ticket (say 10%, for example...not sure).

[MplsBison]

Agree that #8 is absolutely huge. The Summit could invite, for instance, Nebraska-Omaha to fill out the I-29 corridor. It also removes the constraints of being forced to add UTPA or Chicago State, as every DI school would now be "equal" once the reclassification period is over. The threat of the Summit losing an autobid is significantly reduced. The Atlantic Sun seems safe now too: no wonder they are looking at DII's Lincoln Memorial and Francis marion as additions. Instead of individual schools determining when they want to go DI, conferences determine who they want to invite. It also seems likely that conferences can more easily reconfigure their geographies: even "trading" schools would be acceptable. As an example, if the Summit lost Oakland, IPFW, and IUPUI to the Horizon, the Summit could actually invite Montana, Montana St and still maintain it's autobid. That would have been impossible before.

Strangely, if these rules were in place this past decade, it's doubtful that any NCC school would have been DI now.

Interesting that these rules would also allow an easier move to FBS, as "core" requirements are now gone. The WAC will be needed schools from FCS soon, so a school like UC-Davis or even UND - once the transition is complete - would immediately help the WAC meet conference requirements.

Montana

Montana St

NDSU

UND

SDSU

USD

Omaha

Kansas City

Western Ill

IUPUI

IPFW

Oakland

I don't see why Montanas would ever leave the Big Sky, though. Unless they were just disgusted with the conf or thought it was going belly up and did not want to try to move to the WAC.

[The Sicatoka]

That's not correct either.

Did you read what I posted directly from the NCAA manual?

All of the hows and whats are in there.

They define "paid" or "actual" attendance and how to count it.

[MplsBison]

Did you read what I posted directly from the NCAA manual?

All of the hows and whats are in there.

They define "paid" or "actual" attendance and how to count it.

I know you're wrong.

I'll let Hammer fill in the details.

[The Sicatoka]

I know you're wrong.

If I'm wrong so is the "2009-10 NCAA Division I Manual" because that's where that was copied and pasted from.

So who's wrong now.

[Hammersmith]

I know you're wrong.

I'll let Hammer fill in the details.

Since you brought my name into it...

Mpls, you're wrong. Like Sic said, he copied it straight from the DI manual. The only area where confusion could creep in is where the messageboard software killed most of the formatting found in the actual manual. If a school chooses to use actual attendance to reach the 15k minimum, there is nothing preventing them from handing out free tickets. The only catch is that those tickets must actually be used; if they end up in the trash can at home, they don't count toward anything.

[darell1976]

So if i were to "win" 2 tickets to a FBS game, and decide not to go and throw the tickets away (no way i would do that), it wouldn't count because i didn't enter the stadium even though it was a paid ticket.

[82SiouxGuy]

So if i were to "win" 2 tickets to a FBS game, and decide not to go and throw the tickets away (no way i would do that), it wouldn't count because i didn't enter the stadium even though it was a paid ticket.

I think it would depend on who gave it away, and whether it was actually paid for. If a sponsor or a company pays for the tickets and then gives them away, whether it would be to a customer or an employee, those tickets would count as paid and not free. If the school is giving away tickets then they wouldn't be a paid ticket no matter how they presented the tickets. The key is whether money is given to the school in exchange for the tickets.

[darell1976]

I think it would depend on who gave it away, and whether it was actually paid for. If a sponsor or a company pays for the tickets and then gives them away, whether it would be to a customer or an employee, those tickets would count as paid and not free. If the school is giving away tickets then they wouldn't be a paid ticket no matter how they presented the tickets. The key is whether money is given to the school in exchange for the tickets.

So is it bodies that count or "paid" attendance??

[Hammersmith]

So if i were to "win" 2 tickets to a FBS game, and decide not to go and throw the tickets away (no way i would do that), it wouldn't count because i didn't enter the stadium even though it was a paid ticket.

It certainly wouldn't count under actual attendance, and it almost certainly wouldn't count under paid. The only way those tickets could count toward attendance without being redeemed would be if someone actually paid money to the school for them. Most radio giveaway and raffle tickets are donated by the university for promotional purposes. Unless the university was paid at least 1/3 the face value of the most expensive regular ticket, tickets-as-prizes only count if they are redeemed.

[darell1976]

It certainly wouldn't count under actual attendance, and it almost certainly wouldn't count under paid. The only way those tickets could count toward attendance without being redeemed would be if someone actually paid money to the school for them. Most radio giveaway and raffle tickets are donated by the university for promotional purposes. Unless the university was paid at least 1/3 the face value of the most expensive regular ticket, tickets-as-prizes only count if they are redeemed.

So if you buy a ticket and not use it. It would still count for attendance right? Because the money went to the school. But there is no one in the seat so by NCAA rule it wouldn't count because you did not enter the stadium (turnstile, etc.)

[Hammersmith]

So is it bodies that count or "paid" attendance??

It's the choice of the school. They can choose one or the other, but once they've chosen, they must stick to those rules(for the season). The lack of formatting makes it a bit tough to understand, but look back to the DI Manual excerpt that Sic posted. If a school chooses to use actual attendance, then only the 20.9.7.3.1.1 Actual Attendance section applies to them. If they choose to use paid attendance, then they must follow all the rest, from 20.9.7.3.1.2 Paid Attendance onward.

The paid attendance section was added mostly for schools that were on the line and needed a way to stay above 15k even when they didn't have the fans. It allows them to sell blocks of general admission tickets to sponsors or other booster groups at a reduced rate to keep them FBS. It also allows big schools to easily satisfy the requirement without going through the bother of counting ticket stubs(or the electronic equivalent). If you've sold 20k season tickets before the first game of the season, you've satisfied the requirement already and don't need to worry about it.

[darell1976]

It's the choice of the school. They can choose one or the other, but once they've chosen, they must stick to those rules(for the season). The lack of formatting makes it a bit tough to understand, but look back to the DI Manual excerpt that Sic posted. If a school chooses to use actual attendance, then only the 20.9.7.3.1.1 Actual Attendance section applies to them. If they choose to use paid attendance, then they must follow all the rest, from 20.9.7.3.1.2 Paid Attendance onward.

The paid attendance section was added mostly for schools that were on the line and needed a way to stay above 15k even when they didn't have the fans. It allows them to sell blocks of general admission tickets to sponsors or other booster groups at a reduced rate to keep them FBS. It also allows big schools to easily satisfy the requirement without going through the bother of counting ticket stubs(or the electronic equivalent). If you've sold 20k season tickets before the first game of the season, you've satisfied the requirement already and don't need to worry about it.

Ok. That makes sense stupid NCAA makes everything difficult. I would think the bodies count more than the paid attendance but in the end it all comes down to money.