Fullerton Still Talking Big Sky Expansion

[MplsBison]

I don't agree with the logic that because Denver and UND have played each other in men's hockey for many years, a DI UND men's basketball team playing at Denver would have a crowd greater than the average Sun Belt conference game.

For the same reason, I don't see a DI UND men's basketball game at the U of MN or the U of WI drawing crowd greater than their average crowds against mid major teams.

[The Sicatoka]

I don't agree with the logic that because Denver and UND have played each other in men's hockey for many years, a DI UND men's basketball team playing at Denver would have a crowd greater than the average Sun Belt conference game.

For the same reason, I don't see a DI UND men's basketball game at the U of MN or the U of WI drawing crowd greater than their average crowds against mid major teams.

I'll give you half.

The first paragraph I believe you miss horribly. Besides Colorado College (local, short, trip for fans), UND puts more fans in seats in DU's rink than any other school that DU has to potential to be in an all-sports conference with. There are many UND fans in the Denver area and they come out for hockey. My guess is that they'd come out for BB also (because of the limited number of UND events in that region). And it's not just UND fans with this notion (see DU fan 'puck swami').

The second paragraph of yours I agree with. There'd be no special charm for UND in a Big Ten BB arena, even against WCHA rivals. (The only exception might be "sandwiching" a Saturday afternoon BB game between the Friday and Saturday night games of a WCHA series.) However, the same "no special charm" aspect holds for any mid-major or wannabe in a Big Ten arena.

[MplsBison]

A lot of people on this board don't view "bouncyball" as a sport. I have to believe that a lot of the UND fans living in Denver are not bball fans.

[Riverman]

As a Denver fan, there are lots of permuations here that we need to kind of wait and see where the chips fall.

But if UND joins the Big Sky, it would hold more alot interest for Denver, and if UND and UBC join the Bg Sky, Denver would be all over it, IMHO.

I hope you know you have doomed yourself to all Bison and Jacks fans.

UND is the evil empire ask any Bison or Jacks fan.

[star2city]

A lot of people on this board don't view "bouncyball" as a sport. I have to believe that a lot of the UND fans living in Denver are not bball fans.

Since UND outdraws NDSU in "bouncyball", apparently bison fans don't consider it a sport either.

As far as UND fans going to DU/UND b-ball, I can think of five UND alumns (+ spouses / kids) in the Denver area who would be defintely go to Magness. (Most of them also go to DU/UND hockey). With the opening of the T-REX light rail system this fall, Magness Arena will be very convenient.

I hope you know you have doomed yourself to all Bison and Jacks fans.

UND is the evil empire ask any Bison or Jacks fan.

If Bison and Jack fans only knew how credible Puck Swami is as a poster, they'd really shake in their boots.

UBC/DU/UND to the Big Sky may be an dream scenario for UND, but the odds of it happening are growing more credible daily. This week, the NCAA may very well officially announce that Canadian schools will be allowed in the NCAA. After that, watch for an expansion announcement from the October Big Sky meetings.

[bincitysioux]

A lot of people on this board don't view "bouncyball" as a sport. I have to believe that a lot of the UND fans living in Denver are not bball fans.

Actually, I only know of one member of this board that regularily refers to the sport as "bouncyball" and routinely trivializes the game's popularity or importance. That's his perogative. Some people like certain sports more than others. I'm sure it is safe to say that not every NDSU alum/fan is a die hard wrestling fanatic either. I admit that basketball is the tertiary sport at UND. But as someone who is a season ticket holder for football, and goes to just about every home hockey game, and makes it to two or three basketball games every season, I agree with the Sicatoka that any sporting event against Denver is gonna make Sioux fans of any sport take notice, simply because of our historic rivalry with them. I don't follow college basketball real closely but if Denver were playing the Sioux in GF in basketball, that would definately be one of the two or three games I'd go too. I don't have any reason to believe that any Sioux alumni or fans living in Colorado would feel otherwise if the UND basketball team were visiting Denver.

[TheBisonator]

Since UND outdraws NDSU in "bouncyball", apparently bison fans don't consider it a sport either.

That is incorrect, my friend.

2005 average home attendances:

NDSU: 2,488

UND: 2,279

Found here: http://www.ncaa.org/stats/m_basketball/att...ball_attend.pdf

[sultan]

That is incorrect my friend. The NDSU men's team averaged 2488 and their women's team averaged 1927. That is a total of 4415. The UND men averaged 2279 and UND's women team averaged 2292. That is a total of 4571. It would appear that UND had a larger attendance average to watch their games at home than NDSU. At UND we have a lot of interest in our women's team too. But NDSU did beat Wisconsin in men's basketball though. It seems like I've heard that somewhere before.

[BisonMav]

That is incorrect my friend. The NDSU men's team averaged 2488 and their women's team averaged 1927. That is a total of 4415. The UND men averaged 2279 and UND's women team averaged 2292. That is a total of 4571. It would appear that UND had a larger attendance average to watch their games at home than NDSU. At UND we have a lot of interest in our women's team too. But NDSU did beat Wisconsin in men's basketball though. It seems like I've heard that somewhere before.

Weren't most of UND's games Men's/Women's doubleheaders, 2 for 1 tickets, and NDSU's games were only Men or only Women playing on a specific night.

[Hammersmith]

That is incorrect my friend. The NDSU men's team averaged 2488 and their women's team averaged 1927. That is a total of 4415. The UND men averaged 2279 and UND's women team averaged 2292. That is a total of 4571. It would appear that UND had a larger attendance average to watch their games at home than NDSU. At UND we have a lot of interest in our women's team too. But NDSU did beat Wisconsin in men's basketball though. It seems like I've heard that somewhere before.

Friends, friends, you're both right(and wrong). ;)

Since the DI move, almost none of NDSU's BB games have been M/W doubleheaders while almost all the UND games have been. Comparing the two is really apples to oranges for now. I personally feel that NDSU's attendance is stronger, but that's based on opinion. But here's a question to those of you that were at UND BB games last year: I heard a lot of anecdotal stories last year (many on this site) about fans leaving after the women's game. If those stories are true, what does that say about the men's attendance figures? Did the gates count the people who left after the women's games and then subtract them from the men's? If they did, then my apologies, but if they did not, then there is no fair way to compare the two sets of numbers until UND moves to DI and faces the same M/W situation.

edit: BisonMav beat me to it.

[UND92,96]

It's hard to compare the programs due to the doubleheaders or lack thereof, the differing schedules, and the vastly different seating capacities of the Betty vs. the BSA. However, IMO UND holds the advantage in women's basketball at present, while NDSU holds the advantage on the men's side. I believe historically it's probably the opposite, however.

[ND4Life]

Besides Colorado College (local, short, trip for fans), UND puts more fans in seats in DU's rink than any other school that DU has to potential to be in an all-sports conference with.

Help me out on this one. I checked the attendance figures for DU's home games last season, and nearly all were in the 6,100 range, including the UND games. Perhaps in years past UND made a difference at the gate, before DU hockey became a relatively hot ticket? Not trying to play message board "Gotcha," just looking for hard figures.

[Smoggy]

Help me out on this one. I checked the attendance figures for DU's home games last season, and nearly all were in the 6,100 range, including the UND games. Perhaps in years past UND made a difference at the gate, before DU hockey became a relatively hot ticket? Not trying to play message board "Gotcha," just looking for hard figures.

The tickets may be sold, but I've been told that the people don't necessarily go to the games. I believe them coming close to a sell outs on average is only since their titles.

[The Sicatoka]

Help me out on this one. I checked the attendance figures for DU's home games last season, and nearly all were in the 6,100 range, including the UND games. Perhaps in years past UND made a difference at the gate, before DU hockey became a relatively hot ticket? Not trying to play message board "Gotcha," just looking for hard figures.

DU sold out every game after a championship season. Shocking.

Take the longer perspective please. Thank you.

[ND4Life]

DU sold out every game after a championship season. Shocking.

Take the longer perspective please. Thank you.

That's what I was trying to do -- that is, trying to determine, with facts, whether in previous years UND's games drew considerably more people than other games. Still haven't seen any hard figures from anyone posting on this board. What was the difference in attendance before DU hockey became popular -- 2,000 for non-UND games, 6,000 for UND games? 3,000 for non-UND games, 3,500 for UND games?

Details, please.

[The Sicatoka]

Details, please.

Data from USCHO box scores and NCAA.org:

1999-2000 DU Average: 4371

2002-2003 DU Average: 5396

2003-2004 DU Average: 4787

Post-Championship season for DU (2005), UND at DU --> two sellouts

Friday, February 24, 2006 at Magness Arena (Att: 6140)

Saturday, February 25, 2006 at Magness Arena (Att: 6145)

UND at DU in 2003-2004 (avg is 4787)

Friday, November 21, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 5960)

Saturday, November 22, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 4916)

UND at DU in 2002-2003 (avg is 5396)

Friday, February 14, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 5312)

Saturday, February 15, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 6008)

Not having the exacts (not available at NCAA.org),

but here's UND at DU in 2000-2001 (1999-2000 avg is 4371):

Friday, November 03, 2000 at Magness Arena (Att: 4773)

Saturday, November 04, 2000 at Magness Arena (Att: 5880)

How's that?

[GeauxSioux]

Data from USCHO box scores and NCAA.org:

1999-2000 DU Average: 4371

2002-2003 DU Average: 5396

2003-2004 DU Average: 4787

Post-Championship season for DU (2005), UND at DU --> two sellouts

Friday, February 24, 2006 at Magness Arena (Att: 6140)

Saturday, February 25, 2006 at Magness Arena (Att: 6145)

UND at DU in 2003-2004 (avg is 4787)

Friday, November 21, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 5960)

Saturday, November 22, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 4916)

UND at DU in 2002-2003 (avg is 5396)

Friday, February 14, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 5312)

Saturday, February 15, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 6008)

Not having the exacts (not available at NCAA.org),

but here's UND at DU in 2000-2001 (1999-2000 avg is 4371):

Friday, November 03, 2000 at Magness Arena (Att: 4773)

Saturday, November 04, 2000 at Magness Arena (Att: 5880)

How's that?

Do you have a breakdown of male/female?

How many were wearing UND garb so we can be sure that they really were UND fans?

[siouxjoy]

Do you have a breakdown of male/female?

How many were wearing UND garb so we can be sure that they really were UND fans?

I was at both of the DU/UND games in Denver this year. I don't have hard numbers, but I can tell you with certainty that on Saturday night there were more UND fans in the stands than DU students.

[aff]

Since UND outdraws NDSU in "bouncyball", apparently bison fans don't consider it a sport either.

As far as UND fans going to DU/UND b-ball, I can think of five UND alumns (+ spouses / kids) in the Denver area who would be defintely go to Magness. (Most of them also go to DU/UND hockey). With the opening of the T-REX light rail system this fall, Magness Arena will be very convenient.

If Bison and Jack fans only knew how credible Puck Swami is as a poster, they'd really shake in their boots.

UBC/DU/UND to the Big Sky may be an dream scenario for UND, but the odds of it happening are growing more credible daily. This week, the NCAA may very well officially announce that Canadian schools will be allowed in the NCAA. After that, watch for an expansion announcement from the October Big Sky meetings.

I have yet to see a reason why the big sky is going to want to expand as far east as UND. Adding a canadian school and denver doesn't really help UND, no matter what the expanded attendance for Denver is. Like it or not, Denver will see the big sky as step down in basketball, and UND playing basketball in the conference as well certainly isn't going to help that perception any. Is one game a year of higher basketball attendance worth moving your entire athletic identity? If canadain schools are going to be added, why would the sky only add one school from canada? If this scenario proves to be right, I've got a million dollars for starcity ready to go.

[ND4Life]

Data from USCHO box scores and NCAA.org:

1999-2000 DU Average: 4371

2002-2003 DU Average: 5396

2003-2004 DU Average: 4787

Post-Championship season for DU (2005), UND at DU --> two sellouts

Friday, February 24, 2006 at Magness Arena (Att: 6140)

Saturday, February 25, 2006 at Magness Arena (Att: 6145)

UND at DU in 2003-2004 (avg is 4787)

Friday, November 21, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 5960)

Saturday, November 22, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 4916)

UND at DU in 2002-2003 (avg is 5396)

Friday, February 14, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 5312)

Saturday, February 15, 2003 at Magness Arena (Att: 6008)

Not having the exacts (not available at NCAA.org),

but here's UND at DU in 2000-2001 (1999-2000 avg is 4371):

Friday, November 03, 2000 at Magness Arena (Att: 4773)

Saturday, November 04, 2000 at Magness Arena (Att: 5880)

How's that?

Thanks. That's all I was looking for, though I'm not sure the attendance differences are great enough to lend much credence to the argument that the UND-DU hockey rivalry would make the Big Sky more likely to add the two schools as a package deal.

In the end, college presidents make the final decision on expansion, and college presidents still like to look at such things as travel costs, airport connections, flight schedules, etc. As much as I would like to see it, I don't think the Big Sky will add UND. At some point, you have to take peope at their word, and Fullerton has said more than once that the Big Sky is not looking eastward. My guess is if the Big Sky does expand, it goes after British Columbia (assuming the NCAA gives the OK). UBC fits the model for recent Big Sky expansions -- it's in a large metro area and within (to use an overused phrase) the conference's geographic footprint.

Given the news out of Fargo and Brookings today, I suspect UND will be playing football in a seven- to eight-member Great West conference in two or three years and in an expanded or reconfigured Mid-Continent Conference for other sports in six or seven years.

[The Sicatoka]

... college presidents still like to look at such things as travel costs, airport connections, flight schedules, etc.

Yes, and they also look at academic reputation, undergraduate programs offered, graduate programs offered, professional programs offered, and the demographics (public/private) of the school.

Either way, it's a fun ride ahead.

[ND4Life]

Yes, and they also look at academic reputation, undergraduate programs offered, graduate programs offered, professional programs offered, and the demographics (public/private) of the school.

Either way, it's a fun ride ahead.

That's true. They will indeed consider those other factors. But ultimately it will come down to one thing -- money. As you said, the next few years will be far from boring for Sioux fans.

[GeauxSioux]

If canadain schools are going to be added, why would the sky only add one school from canada? If this scenario proves to be right, I've got a million dollars for starcity ready to go.

That's great I'm sure S2C wouldn't mind contributing it to UND's move to Division I.

[jbuck]

As a Denver fan, there are lots of permuations here that we need to kind of wait and see where the chips fall.

From DU's perspective, they want out of the Sun Belt, but only if the alternative adds value. DU would love to be in the WCC with other western private schools that are all similar sized, but the WCC said no due to distance - even with DU willing to pay its way in.

Right now, the Big Sky as t is currently arranged has little more interest in Denver than the Sun Belt does. Many Big Sky schools already play Denver in men's hoops, and the crowds for them are the same as they are for Sun Belt schools - high school sized (1,200 -2,500 on average). UNC is the only school with any interest to Denver fans, but it is a marginal interest at best.

But if UND joins the Big Sky, it would hold more alot interest for Denver, and if UND and UBC join the Bg Sky, Denver would be all over it, IMHO.

Not to be too harsh, but Denver hockey (and DU sports in general) is nothing more than an after thought along the Front Range. I would gauge the interest somewhere above Wyoming athletics (football excluded) and below John Elway's son starting at Cherry Creek. The idea that a DU, UND hockey rivalry will get UND into the Big Sky and that this rivalry will increase BB crowds is laughable. The only way DU gets their BB crowds above the high school attendance level is by somehow getting into the West Coast or even better the MWC with AF, CSU and Wyoming. UND needs to hope and pray they can get in the Mid Con for all sports but FB which they can play in the Great West.

[The Sicatoka]

The only way DU gets their BB crowds above the high school attendance level ...

What's the expectation?

The 2003 (data I had handy) MBB DI average was 5097, but the median was only 3010. (Only 109 of 327 DI schools beat the average.) Going from below to above the median would be a significant first step, wouldn't it?

UND needs to hope and pray they can get in the Mid Con for all sports but FB which they can play in the Great West.

So the BSC has downgraded that quickly (after NDSU is in the MidCon/GWFC) that a first hope/goal for UND shouldn't be the BSC anymore but NDSU's original third option (after BSC and Missouri Valley)?