Fullerton Still Talking Big Sky Expansion

[IowaBison]

bincity, I think that UND will almost certainly be moving to Division I with it's exploratory year in '07-'08.

But I don't take it as an absolute certainty, there are a number of items of concern:

Kuchella's resistence to the idea, including during his announcement

budget/fundraising issues

lack of support-ie the task force report

will Kupchella be around to see this through, and if not will the next president?

the piecemeal approach to the issue, including the task force report

[IowaBison]

I think it is an exit strategy, but not in the way hoped for by those who desperately want UND stay D-II. I think Kupchella is very risk averse about committing to big new athletics expenses but the athletics and alumni leaders have assured him the money will be there. I think they got to announce the reclassification, with the completion of the process contingent on using the two years to "show him the money".

If that's the case, I have a good deal of confidence that they correctly estimated their ability to raise the additional funds and it would take an unexpected catastrophic event to cause UND to step back.

What's this 'hope' reference about?

I agree with the rest of our post.

[jimdahl]

What's this 'hope' reference about?

I think there are people who, for a variety of reasons, wish UND would stay D-II. I was specifically trying to restrict the following comment to that subgroup: they're optimistically misinterpreting Kupchella's reticence as an indiciation that UND will try to back off the reclassification because it aligns with their desired outcome, not because it actually seems most likely.

[IowaBison]

Thanks for the clarification.

I agree that there are bison fans who think that way. These same individuals are often of the opinion that NDSU and UND should never play again () or that NDSU should move to DI-A immediately if UND makes the move.....

[bincitysioux]

bincity, I think that UND will almost certainly be moving to Division I with it's exploratory year in '07-'08.

I agree.

But I don't take it as an absolute certainty, there are a number of items of concern:

There are a number of concerns in every universities athletic dept.

Kuchella's resistence to the idea, including during his announcement

I'll give you that. I don't think Kupchella supports athletics in general very much.

budget/fundraising issues

Also a concern at virtually every university in the country, especially when making a DII to DI transition. I'm confident that when NDSU moved, there were people wondering about how it would be financed.

lack of support-ie the task force report

The task force was a fact-finding commission. It did not make a recommendation one way or the other. It did say that UND more closely resembles DI schools as opposed to DII schools. It also said UND should find a conference. What did the Carr report say again?

will Kupchella be around to see this through, and if not will the next president?

Presidents come and go. NDSU's president was recently sending his resume to Wyoming was he not?

the piecemeal approach to the issue, including the task force report

?

[IowaBison]

the lack of support comment referred to the task force report where those surveyed did not express strong feelings for the move

[star2city]

Getting back to the Big Sky expansion issue, a fan of UBC informed me that high school football in British Columbia is actually played by U.S. rules: NFLCFLFutures.com

WHAT IS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL IN British Columbia?

High school Football in B.C. is four down, US high school rules played between schools at the Grade 8, Junior (9/10) and Senior (11/12) levels. The senior ranks are divided between AA (Schools with less than 300 boys in grades 11/12) and AAA (Schools with 300 or more boys in grades 11/12). ...

So a UBC IAA football team playing American college rules would actually be more accomodating to BC high schoolers than Canadian rules. Interesting. With IA football not UBC's initial option, UBC would have to look toward the Big Sky and the Great West IAA leagues. The Big Sky's metro expansions in the past have not been shining successes largely because the teams added were third, fourth, or even fifth tier in their respective markets of Portland, Sacramento, and Los Angeles (Northridge St). UBC would be at worst 2nd tier (after the BC Lions) in the very large Vancouver market. Fullerton would love UBC if it becomes available (TV $'s), and Big Sky college presidents would love UBC's academic rankings.

On another note, after reading this thread, a likely skeptical Mplsbison started a thread on Anygivensaturday.com referencing the IndyStar article posted here about the possibility of Canadian schools in the NCAA: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11896

The next day, another thread was started on USCHO with the same IndyStar reference: http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?t=59397. Strangely, fans from other schools on these boards didn't throw hissyfits like many of the Bison and Jack fans here did, as the concept of Canadian schools in the NCAA wasn't ridiculed on the other threads. Are Bison and Jack fans fearful of something?

Interesting also that the writeup on Wikipedia about UBC Thunderbirds and the NCAA includes this statement, indicating the NCAA is much more serious about a Division I applicant (TV money?) than a DII applicant:

NCAA membership bid

Recently, they (UBC) have applied to become members of the principal U.S. college sports governing body, the NCAA. They are not the first Canadian school to try to join the NCAA; in 2000, local rival Simon Fraser, then exclusively an NAIA member, sought to join the NCAA but was turned down. The NCAA has language in its constitution prohibiting non-U.S. schools from joining; however, some observers believe the real reason Simon Fraser was turned down was that the school sought to join as a Division II school, and the NCAA did not want to set a precedent with a lower-level school. UBC, on the other hand, is reportedly interested in joining Division I.

[89rabbit]

You are right Fullerton does love the BIG markets, so if he added UBC I would also see him pushing for a school like Western Washington, a great travel partner for UBC and natural rival for Eastern Washington, as this would give him the Seattle metro. After all, won't Western be looking for a football home after the NCC falls apart so they might very well move up and since we are speculating this would make a lot of sense. Wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that UND won't get into the Big Sky, but I don't see the logic in thinking that the Sioux's chances go up if the Big Sky adds yet another "West Coast" team.

[GeauxSioux]

You are right Fullerton does love the BIG markets, so if he added UBC I would also see him pushing for a school like Western Washington, a great travel partner for UBC and natural rival for Eastern Washington, as this would give him the Seattle metro. After all, won't Western be looking for a football home after the NCC falls apart so they might very well move up and since we are speculating this would make a lot of sense. Wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that UND won't get into the Big Sky, but I don't see the logic in thinking that the Sioux's chances go up if the Big Sky adds yet another "West Coast" team.

I agree that Western Washington could be a good travel partner for UBC, but I don't see how that gives them the Seattle market. U of Washington has the Seattle market. I don't think a smaller school 90 miles away is going to encroach upon their hold on that market.

[89rabbit]

How did UNC give Fullerton the Denver market? I hear what you are saying, and agree with you, I am just pointing out how Fullerton thinks.

[GeauxSioux]

How did UNC give Fullerton the Denver market? I hear what you are saying, and agree with you, I am just pointing out how Fullerton thinks.

I can't answer you on how Fullerton thinks, but there is a bit of a difference between Seattle and Denver. U of Washington is located in Seattle and to my knowledge is the only D-I school there. They totally dominate the media in coverage. I know this because I once lived there.

The Denver media market is different. U of Colorado is less than 30 miles away. Colordado State is about 65 miles away. U of Denver is right there in the metro. They all take a piece of the pie. Denver does not have the dominant school in the market.

Perhaps that leaves an opening in Seattle for another school to get some press, but from what I saw it all revolved around U Dub in Seattle.

[89rabbit]

Right that is the point. UNC is an after thought, at best, in Denver (not trying to slam our Bear friends just stating a fact) just like a D-I Western Washington would be an after thought in Seattle. Neither school would "deliver" their nearby media markets. This fact has never stopped Fullerton from dreaming, and although is didn't work with Cal-State Northridge (Los Angeles), didn't work with Sacramento State (Sacramento and Bay Area), didn't work with Portland State (Portland), and won't work with UNC (Denver), there is no indication that he is prepared to accept this reality.

The fact the Fullerton is not willing to accept that reality works against all Dakota Schools and is another reason beyond distance that none of the Dakota schools is likely to get into the Big Sky anytime soon, in my opinion. With that said I don't really want to debate this topic as I have been done this road more then once already. I don't want to shift focus away from the fact that I need some help in understanding the logic of how adding another West Coast school to the Big Sky Conference increases UND's chances of getting an invite.

[GeauxSioux]

Right that is the point. UNC is an after thought, at best, in Denver (not trying to slam our Bear friends just stating a fact) just like a D-I Western Washington would be an after thought in Seattle. Neither school would "deliver" their nearby media markets. This fact has never stopped Fullerton from dreaming, and although is didn't work with Cal-State Northridge (Los Angeles), didn't work with Sacramento State (Sacramento and Bay Area), didn't work with Portland State (Portland), and won't work with UNC (Denver), there is no indication that he is prepared to accept this reality.

The fact the Fullerton is not willing to accept that reality works against all Dakota Schools and is another reason beyond distance that none of the Dakota schools is likely to get into the Big Sky anytime soon, in my opinion. With that said I don't really want to debate this topic as I have been done this road more then once already. I don't want to shift focus away from the fact that I need some help in understanding the logic of how adding another West Coast school to the Big Sky Conference increases UND's chances of getting an invite.

Can't help you on the logic on that one. I'm an innocent bystander who enjoys reading about the speculcation.

Good luck on your Mid-Con visit.

[89rabbit]

Thanks I think we are all looking forward to it.

[bincitysioux]

The presidents of the Big Sky schools added PSU, Sac St., UNC, and Northridge, not Fullerton. He has little power in regards to expansion.

[89rabbit]

Bin,

I realize that only the Presdients can vote to extend an invitation. However, Fullerton is their mouthpiece/symbol of the BSC and the title of the thread is "Fullerton Still Talking Big Sky Expansion".

We can discuss the intricacies of how conferences select their new members or engage in banter over semantics if you like, but it really doesn

[SiouxMeNow]

UNC was ALL about geography....print out a map of the Big-Sky schools and you'll see. Greeley is like a pimple on the *ss of the Denver market BUT they are conveniently located within the sphere of influence of the BS conference. (AND THEY DIDN'T BEAT ONE OF "OUR" PREMIERE SCHOOLS WHILE THEY WERE A WEASILY d2 SCHOOL - But I digress...)

2 schools to the east were obviously not enough to interest the Big Sky right now but 4 in a couple years MAYBE That would give them a reason to go East and split into 2 divisions (READ: ETERNAL di security!) This is why I've said all along ndsu in the mid-con is NO BIG DEAL! Yeah - they're happy to have ANYONE to dance with at this point but they'd bolt in a minute if there was a chance to get into the Big Sky with "other" schools (like ones who have a "Nickel" for a phone call?? )

[nd1sufan]

UNC was ALL about geography....print out a map of the Big-Sky schools and you'll see. Greeley is like a pimple on the *ss of the Denver market BUT they are conveniently located within the sphere of influence of the BS conference. (AND THEY DIDN'T BEAT ONE OF "OUR" PREMIERE SCHOOLS WHILE THEY WERE A WEASILY d2 SCHOOL - But I digress...)

2 schools to the east were obviously not enough to interest the Big Sky right now but 4 in a couple years MAYBE That would give them a reason to go East and split into 2 divisions (READ: ETERNAL di security!) This is why I've said all along ndsu in the mid-con is NO BIG DEAL! Yeah - they're happy to have ANYONE to dance with at this point but they'd bolt in a minute if there was a chance to get into the Big Sky with "other" schools (like ones who have a "Nickel" for a phone call?? )

If NDSU gets into the Mid-Con this year I don't beleive they will be leaving for the Big Sky anytime soon. I think you are mistaken if you think the chance of being in the BSC with UND & USD will be any kind of a reason for NDSU to bolt the Mid-Con. NDSU has gotten comfortable being seperated from UND and won't or shouldn't go out of their way to help UND find a home. Besides, If you ask most college basketball followers in the last 20 years which conference is more recognizable the Mid Con or the Big Sky, they would say the Mid Con.

If NDSU would happen to land in the Gateway for football in the next couple of years, There is no way they leave that combo for the Big Sky. Maybe the Missouri Valley, but not the Big Sky.

[IowaBison]

It would be absolutely shocking if NDSU/SDSU didn't vote for inclusion of any Northern Plains school for conference membership-especially UND/USD. Our athletic departments/presidents are not as stupid or vindictive as some of our fans.

[bombDiggiD]

If NDSU gets into the Mid-Con this year I don't beleive they will be leaving for the Big Sky anytime soon. I think you are mistaken if you think the chance of being in the BSC with UND & USD will be any kind of a reason for NDSU to bolt the Mid-Con. NDSU has gotten comfortable being seperated from UND and won't or shouldn't go out of their way to help UND find a home. Besides, If you ask most college basketball followers in the last 20 years which conference is more recognizable the Mid Con or the Big Sky, they would say the Mid Con.

If NDSU would happen to land in the Gateway for football in the next couple of years, There is no way they leave that combo for the Big Sky. Maybe the Missouri Valley, but not the Big Sky.

None of these schools will ever be in the Big Sky.

The Big Sky only entertained expansion East of Montana because they had to consider all regional schools.

They made it clear that their intentions are more south then east when they choose a struggling UNC program.

They choose a UNC athletic program, knowing it was struggling, over the Dakota schools. That alone should tell you what they think of expanding east of Montana into the Dakota's

As long as there are California, and other coastal schools, they will never seriously consider the Dakotas.

UND's only hope for a conference anytime in the foreseeable future is the Mid con. And they will get in sooner, or later.

[star2city]

According to our SDSU and NDSU resident experts, a Canadian school (UBC) in the NCAA can never happen. But could these experts be wrong? Guess what could very well be happening:

UBC tantalizingly close to NCAA nod

"I think [the NCAA]is going to come back and say, 'The door will be open for a Canadian school or UBC,'"said UBC athletic director Bob Philip. "The question is, when will that opportunity occur? I think the NCAA is looking at this from a different angle now.

"Everything we've heard has been so far, so good. On the other hand, there are a lot of issues."

Oh, maybe a few minor details, but when you've come this far, you begin to believe any obstacle is insurmountable.

Against all odds, the Point Grey school is awaiting a decision that would fundamentally alter its future even as it changes the course of Canadian university athletics. When this process started it seemed to have the same chance as Mel Gibson playing the lead in the remake of Exodus.

But now, as the NCAA contemplates UBC's application, the whole concept isn't quite as far-fetched. Philip and his colleagues have been told they'll hear from the governing body of U.S. college athletics by the end of the summer. Thus far, the message from NCAA headquarters has been encouraging.

If UBC becomes available as an NCAA school, the Vancouver market would be very enticing to a lower level conference like the Big Sky. Regardless of UND's or UBC's eventual all-sports conference membership, UBC's likely DI hockey program will have an effect on UND athletics.

This statement implies that no DI conference arrangement is imminent. If UBC attempts to immediately join DI, it will take seven years for it to attain post-season eligibility in all sports. If it went DII, UBC could obtain post-season eligibility in DI hockey in five years.

Philip was originally focused on Division I and, while that's still the aim, he said Wednesday his school would accept Division II membership while they worked their way inside the velvet ropes. While in Division II, the school could also take part in two Division-I sports.

[star2city]

UBC awaits word on move to NCAA

CBC News had the above report on UBC's NCAA bid. It repeats some comments by UBC's AD, but I found these comments in bold particularly revealing:

In addition to basketball, UBC apparently stressed in its application to the NCAA that it would be immediately competitive in baseball, golf, hockey, rowing and volleyball.

"On the other hand, there are a lot of issues," Philip said.

Those issues include money, the absence of a tennis program, adjusting from Canadian to American rules in men's football

[puck swami]

As a Denver fan, there are lots of permuations here that we need to kind of wait and see where the chips fall.

From DU's perspective, they want out of the Sun Belt, but only if the alternative adds value. DU would love to be in the WCC with other western private schools that are all similar sized, but the WCC said no due to distance - even with DU willing to pay its way in.

Right now, the Big Sky as t is currently arranged has little more interest in Denver than the Sun Belt does. Many Big Sky schools already play Denver in men's hoops, and the crowds for them are the same as they are for Sun Belt schools - high school sized (1,200 -2,500 on average). UNC is the only school with any interest to Denver fans, but it is a marginal interest at best.

But if UND joins the Big Sky, it would hold more alot interest for Denver, and if UND and UBC join the Bg Sky, Denver would be all over it, IMHO.

[The Sicatoka]

But if UND joins the Big Sky, it would hold more alot interest for Denver, and if UND and UBC join the Bg Sky, Denver would be all over it, IMHO.

There'd be a lot of positives for the three you mention in that scenario:

- UBC would be getting two "friends" with a lot of college hockey credibility to help them into the NCAA

- Denver would be getting long-time rival in hockey for other sport rivalries

- UND would be getting into the BSC where they may otherwise not be as interesting to them

and

- the BSC would be getting the Vancouver and Denver TV markets

- the BSC would be getting a school with strong potential for DI-AA football success

It all sounds pretty good, but, a lot of chips are left to fall. I'd rather see a press release than internet speculation.

[star2city]

But if UND joins the Big Sky, it would hold more alot interest for Denver, and if UND and UBC join the Bg Sky, Denver would be all over it, IMHO.

Thanks for posting, Puck Swami!

It would be interesting to know what your inside contacts at DU think of this possibility.