Buning Says UND Moving

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Agree with you 100%. Both are decent schools and have strengths in their reputable programs.

Except that NDSU does have the better Engineering Program. Thats a fact.

I guess you are right if you consider Farmers as Agricultural Engineers...You guys definitely have us beat when it comes the varied uses of cow manure - Especially when its used to make your weak points...

Again, lets talk about the real school of Engineering and Mines in ND...It was sanctioned by the State's Constitution in 1889 (How about NDSU?? 1950s? 60s?). Needless to say, UND has produced more graduates than NDSU - A fact, not a cow chip. In addition, I've looked at your so-called Engineering degree programs...You only actually have 4 recognized Engineering Fields that you grant degrees (Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, and Geological) - Agricultural and Environmental Engineering are not recognized fields, but possible major focus points of a real engineering education (If you don't believe me, then try to get professional certification as an Agricultural Engineer!). In addiition, construction management and landscape architecture are not core engineering fields either - for christsakes, you can get that training at your local highschool or Vocational Tech Institute (aka Grade 13).

Lastly, you guys from NDSU think because you have gone Div 1AA that you now have some kind of new found respect to your Engineering programs - You are just plain wrong. The only institution that provides Law, Medical, Aviation, and Engineering is the University of North Dakota. If you don't believe me, then do a quick search on google by entering "North Dakota State University School of Engineering" in the search field - Guess what? No hits for NDSU, but many hits for UND.

Sorry to hurt your feelings nanoboy!

BobIwabuchiFan

[BobIwabuchiFan]

As for the engineering point I've heard that there are certain fields of engineering where UND is superior and certain fields where ndsu is superior. I'm not certain which because I'm not an engineering student. I would also argue that it could be one of the areas where both schools have excellent programs and there isn't a tangible difference in the quality of the two programs.

Don't want to correct a UND fan, but the difference is significant. The majority of NDSU programs are not core programs of Engineering. For instance, Architecture is a BS degree, but it is not an accredited Engineering program (Big Difference). Why you say? Because Professional Engineering status cannot be granted to an Architect - so legal rights provided by this certification are not transferrable to someone who has not studied a core engineering program or has been certfied as such through the FE exams.

If you don't believe me, then please look at the NDSU school site and then look at the UND SEM site. Vastly different degrees, but you can see plainly that UND's core curriculum is Engineering and Mines, while NDSUs is primarily Architecture. Which, by the way, I agree with NANOBISON or IOWABISON that they have an exceptional Architecture program, but an Architect does not an Engineer make!

BobIwabuchiFan

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Just for Clarity Reasons...

This is the NDSU site with supposedly 8 Engineering programs (Not likely when you don't consider Landscape Architecture and Construction Management as core Engr Programs). Also note the inclusion of Army ROTC and Military Science activities (What's that all about...Little Jealous about the aviation department and the real ARMY ROTC program at UND?)..

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/cea/

Now compare this to the UND School of Engineering and Mines Page...

http://www.engineering.UND.edu/

Add to the idea that the EERC, a branch of UND, represents one of the largest, if not the largest, University-based Energy and Environment research centers in North America and is connected to the Engineering department and the University - makes you think the boys from Fargo drank the Div 1AA Kool-aid and thought somehow they were going to better academically just because they could play Cal Poly in Football. Seems someone forgot that you can't Harvest the crop before you plant it!

BobIwabuchiFan

[NanoBison]

Boy oh boy do your guy's cheap shots get better and better. Thanks for the Masturbation one, that was great. The manure one was good to. Real classy.

If you guys are going to insult us, why don't you come up with some new original material???

BobIwabuchiFan, you must be really lacking on confidence of your program since you posted 3 posts on the SAME thing in a row. One would have been sufficient. Look at the enrollments for the two programs. The students know which is better. It speaks for itself. The only thing big I've heard come out of your Aerospace Program is a problem on where to house your NASA jet. (Bob, no need to reply unless it has something to do with the topic of the thread)

To get back to the topic of this post, "Buning Says UND Moving", in my opinion you guys still have to convince Kupchella on the move. He's been dead set against it since the beginning and has been looking for a chance to flee when it presents itself. You better hurry up and do it. Only 27 days remain until your locked into Div-2 for another year, thanks to your great leader.

Please don't try that "Buning said were going, the president and him are in planning with one another". Kupchella is the one who decides the final fate and will take the brunt of the bite back if your move isn't successful (for example, you realize 1 year down the road that an extra $1,000,000/yr isn't going to cut it so you go back to Div-2). Please don't say "the money will be there" either becuase of the last great gift the university received. Most of that is probably going to academics (which it should...).

Finally you guys should really get an unbiased outside 3rd party group to do a report for you. Not a UND internal commitee. If you guys make the move based upon the figures in that report, I certainly wish you the best of luck, but I would highly advise against it.

[The Sicatoka]

Everyone one who has read the Final Report to Kupchella, all of it, including the fiscal sub-committee data and the attachments, raise their hand.

Well, I see mine up.

I read it and saw a set of simple facts and data. It doesn't all say "go" nor does it all say "stay". I saw issues I hadn't seen before. It was about as unbiased a report as any I'd seen. There was no "tone" to it, positive or negative.

For example, I see this random tossing about of "additional $1,000,000.00" being scoffed by some folks as a huge understimate. Guess what: Scoffing is correct! UND's report says so:

... the need for additional funding of about $1 million (excluding facility related costs) if a move to Division I occurs. This is by no means a final amount but merely one way to begin to quantify the financial impact. A detailed financial plan must be developed based on an agreed upon set of assumptions.

I read honest assessments of present dollars, possible revenues, areas of strength, areas of weakness.

What I read in the report primarily, however, is what I've said all along:

Answer either "cost" or "conference" and you have your answer.

I expect we'll be receiving our answer shortly.

[The Sicatoka]

Finally you guys should really get an unbiased outside 3rd party group to do a report for you. Not a UND internal commitee. If you guys make the move based upon the figures in that report, I certainly wish you the best of luck, but I would highly advise against it.

What I find quite humorous is fans and alumni of schools who did hire outside consultants saying UND should have hired outside consultants when those schools that did hire outside consultants didn't follow the recommendations they paid for!

More humorous is that same group of fans pointing out UND's present budgetary status and saying UND can't go in that condition when their very schools did the very same just a few years ago.

[sultan]

I love it when "Nanobison" or Nonobison" gets it handed to him and then he squirms and says lets get back on topic. I guess apparently any extra money donated to NDSU should go to academics then too, right. I'm sure NDSU and their athletic programs aren't looking for any extra money now. There doing a lot of begging right now from what I hear. Remember the last nine million could be used as UND saw fit. NDSU is really the foolish one. They spent a ton of money to hire a consultant and then didn't listen to them and then they have the gaul to ridicule us for not hiring a consultant. Nano, you better go back to the most classless website around...Bisonville. You Bison fans should worry more about NDSU and a whole lot less about UND.

[MplsBison]

http://www.abet.org/overview.shtml

North Dakota State University

Fargo, ND

Date of Next General Review: 2006 - 07

Agricultural and Biosystems Engineering BS [1953]

Civil Engineering BS [1948]

Construction Engineering BS [1983]

Electrical Engineering BS [1948]

Industrial Engineering and Management BS [1971]

Manufacturing Engineering BS [2001]

Mechanical Engineering BS [1940]

University of North Dakota

Grand Forks, ND

Date of Next General Review: 2009 - 10

Chemical Engineering BS [1939]

Civil Engineering BS [1936]

Electrical Engineering BS [1936]

Geological Engineering BS [1986]

Mechanical Engineering BS [1936]

You were saying something about how agricultural engineering and construction engineering aren't accredited?

[NanoBison]

I never said you didn't have to follow the 3rd party's recommendations. I'm glad we didn't. But those recommendations at least showed an unbiased view of what we were up against if we did decide to make the move anyway. The information in that report is totally bias and there are so money "more research on the topic needed at this time" bullets, I almost had to wonder if the comittee fully did their job.

Basically what I'm saying is, it's not the recommendation that you should be concerned with, it's the data your being provided to you. Many people on the board so far (albeit mostly NDSU fans) have pointed out several flawed figures in the report. If that's the type of info you want to go on, fine whatever... It's your schools decision. It just gives us more opportunity for "I told you so" when it doesn't work out in your favor.

By the way, to the earlier comments, what school isn't begging for money?

[The Sicatoka]

It just gives us more opportunity for "I told you so" when it doesn't work out in your favor.

Careful. There are juries still out in Fargo and Brookings.

... what school isn't begging for money?

Milton College.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

http://www.abet.org/overview.shtml

You were saying something about how agricultural engineering and construction engineering aren't accredited?

Accredited, but not a core Engineering curriculum...Look it up on google and tell me the history of your so called strong engineering degrees....Start with Construction Management??? Kinda showed up in the 70's right and it just happened to be connected with Architecture which isn't a core engineering discipline. Okay, then lets go to your manufacturing engineering degree - wanna know where that comes from? Its basically a group of mechanical and electrical engineers who worked for the big 3 in the 60's and 70's and they created a technical group that specifically dealt with manufacturing (SME - They actually use to certify technician level people as Manufacturing Engineers if they went through 6 month training course - now you guys have it as a four year degree!)...Not really core engineering, but an off-shot of core engineering fields that produce a speciality.

Don't even try to convince me that you have more real programs for Engineering than UND because you have 3 secondary degrees that basically capitalize off of the 4 primary engineering cores - Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, and Chemical. Doesn't seem to figure that you somehow have a better program. I hire Mechanical and Electrical Engineers to do so-called "Manufacturing Engineering" all the time and I still require them to do actual design based on their core education - Basically, Construction Management and Manufacturing Engineering are really just job titles in a highly fragmented work world and not a core engineering discipline.

I'm also not aware of how many people actually attend NDSU for Engineering, but I can state that UND only classifies you as an Engineer when you have 2 years of generals under your belt and you have been accepted, via application, to a department. So, if you count every tom, dick, and architect at NDSU I would assume you have a larger number, but if you count the quality and the real engineers I would bet we win out by a far margin.

In addition, you still have not shown me how moving your athletics program has made your Engineering and Architecture school any better than what it was 4 years ago?? I don't see Solar Cars and Hydrogen Cars coming out of Fargo to complete against the MITs, the Cal Techs, or the University of Michigans? Maybe you guys have some Ethanol ideas, but still haven't read them in the Tech Mags...Good luck though...Maybe some wins against Cal Poly or whomever will allow you to sink more money into your Technical programs at NDSU.

Lastly, I think you guys are really good at architecture and running job sites - you win hands down! Also, keep up the good work on the farm...Its needed and valuable to all who eat! Keep your heads up high guys in Fargo and know that you can call us anytime to help you figure it out!

BobIwabuchiFan

PS NANOBISON, you might want to wash the kool-aid mustache off your face before you go out to the clubs tonight in Fargo.

[SiouxMeNow]

I just can't believe a "big-time" division I ( ) program would have posters spending time on a little D2 board UNLESS they REALLY wanted UND to move up but didn't dare say so publicly

Thanks Jim for letting free speech live on at Siouxsports because other boards are apparently SO AFRAID of discourse they ban topics and posters based ENTIRELY on their collegiate affiliation. What a sad, pathetic lot they are...I'm all for Free Speech even IF it includes a bunch of nonsense from people who are only trying to stir up trouble on this board! (Lord knows I may have been slightly guilty of things in the past but I've CHANGED ) AND I'm willing to counsel other morons who are currently guilty of the same offense....

ANY TAKERS?? I know who needs help the most...that guy with the big-headed YELLOW avatar....your choice of color says SO MUCH about you

[SiouxMeNow]

I never said you didn't have to follow the 3rd party's recommendations. I'm glad we didn't. But those recommendations at least showed an unbiased view of what we were up against if we did decide to make the move anyway. The information in that report is totally bias and there are so money "more research on the topic needed at this time" bullets, I almost had to wonder if the comittee fully did their job.

Basically what I'm saying is, it's not the recommendation that you should be concerned with, it's the data your being provided to you. Many people on the board so far (albeit mostly NDSU fans) have pointed out several flawed figures in the report. If that's the type of info you want to go on, fine whatever... It's your schools decision. It just gives us more opportunity for "I told you so" when it doesn't work out in your favor.

By the way, to the earlier comments, what school isn't begging for money?

Enginers are great! - they keep the POCKET PROTECTOR industry going....how many doctors or lawyers have you graduated? (answer: ZERO! ) If you want to go "profession for profession" - I'll take UND anytime! To your other point...all schools are looking for $$$ - seems like a couple weeks ago - a generous donor kicked about $10 million UND's way...when was the last time someone gave "nd's 1st di university" a gift like that - and I won't even mention our hockey arena and that whole thing " BUT you still have the Benson/Bunker fieldhouse -- that's nice....for volleyball

[SiouxMeNow]

...gotta say...(no accolades necessary )

I can still SPIT with the best of them!!

[MplsBison]

Accredited, but not a core Engineering curriculum...Look it up on google and tell me the history of your so called strong engineering degrees....Start with Construction Management??? Kinda showed up in the 70's right and it just happened to be connected with Architecture which isn't a core engineering discipline. Okay, then lets go to your manufacturing engineering degree - wanna know where that comes from? Its basically a group of mechanical and electrical engineers who worked for the big 3 in the 60's and 70's and they created a technical group that specifically dealt with manufacturing (SME - They actually use to certify technician level people as Manufacturing Engineers if they went through 6 month training course - now you guys have it as a four year degree!)...Not really core engineering, but an off-shot of core engineering fields that produce a speciality.

Don't even try to convince me that you have more real programs for Engineering than UND because you have 3 secondary degrees that basically capitalize off of the 4 primary

engineering cores - Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, and Chemical. Doesn't seem to figure that you somehow have a better program. I hire Mechanical and Electrical Engineers to do so-called "Manufacturing Engineering" all the time and I still require them to do actual design based on their core education - Basically, Construction Management and Manufacturing Engineering are really just job titles in a highly fragmented work world and not a core engineering discipline.

I'm also not aware of how many people actually attend NDSU for Engineering, but I can state that UND only classifies you as an Engineer when you have 2 years of generals under your belt and you have been accepted, via application, to a department. So, if you count every tom, dick, and architect at NDSU I would assume you have a larger number, but if you count the quality and the real engineers I would bet we win out by a far margin.

In addition, you still have not shown me how moving your athletics program has made your Engineering and Architecture school any better than what it was 4 years ago?? I don't see Solar Cars and Hydrogen Cars coming out of Fargo to complete against the MITs, the Cal Techs, or the University of Michigans? Maybe you guys have some Ethanol ideas, but still haven't read them in the Tech Mags...Good luck though...Maybe some wins against Cal Poly or whomever will allow you to sink more money into your Technical programs at NDSU.

Lastly, I think you guys are really good at architecture and running job sites - you win hands down! Also, keep up the good work on the farm...Its needed and valuable to all who eat! Keep your heads up high guys in Fargo and know that you can call us anytime to help you figure it out!

BobIwabuchiFan

PS NANOBISON, you might want to wash the kool-aid mustache off your face before you go out to the clubs tonight in Fargo.

Is this post directed at me? Because you're making some sort of imaginary references to things I didn't say.

Maybe we should clear some things up?

First of all, if you had read the link at the top:

ABET, Inc., is the recognized U.S. accreditor of college and university programs in applied science, computing, engineering, and technology. Accreditation ensures the quality of the postsecondary education students receive. ABET was established in 1932 and is now a federation of 28 representing the fields of applied science, computing, engineering, and technology.

ABET currently accredits some 2,700 programs at over 550 colleges and universities nationwide.

Every school in the nation with an egineering department must be accredited by ABET if they want their department to have any legitimacy. Seeing as they were established in 1932 and are a federation of 28 professional societies, I think they know what they're doing.

I'm not going to look up your personal definition of what a "core" engineering program is. You seem to think that it is electrical, mechanical, civil, and chemical (funny that those are exactly what UND offers) and that all other programs are illegitimate even though they're accredited by ABET. Even though NDSU doesn't have a separate chemical engineering department, they do have a polymers and coatings option in the Mechanical department that works with the Chemistry department, so NDSU does have all the "core" programs.

But, on the other hand, I'm not going to use your personal definition of "core" programs. I'm going to agree with ABET on what constitues an engineering department. They have the experiance and expertises to make that decision.

You don't.

Architecture is not engineering. Never will be. Architecture is applied drawing. There is no math needed to draw. I don't understand why you're accusing me of lumping architects in with engineers. I've made no such statement. NDSU puts architects and engineers in the same college merely for administrative reasons. That doesn't mean anything other than making it easier for the secretaries to do paperwork.

When have I said that taking our athletic program to DI has helped our engineering and architecture college? That's a fairly ludicrus statement to make. Athletics and academics are separate.

NDSU is never going to directly compete with MIT, Cal Tech, or any of the big state public flagships for grants. It's just not going to happen. We are, however, going to continue to expand our departments, increase the number of doctorates granted and graduate students enrolled, and increase the amount of money spend on research as much as we can. I think having Alien and Phoenix on campus will help in that area. As well as the rest of the technology park.

[NanoBison]

Wondering whay your guys opinion on this was :

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=128935

Pretty good article from someone who constantly slams NDSU...

[jimdahl]

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=128935

Pretty good article from someone who constantly slams NDSU...

I'll treat it the same way I do all of McFeely's columns -- not waste my time by reading it.

McFeely is just a contrarian who likes to criticize everyone and everything. Those (few) Bison fans who deride him continuously, until an occasional article targets UND instead, and then love him for a day are comical. Anyone who wants to read McFeely knows where to find him, but I personally don't think it's worth rewarding him by discussing his rants here.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Is this post directed at me? Because you're making some sort of imaginary references to things I didn't say.

Maybe we should clear some things up?

First of all, if you had read the link at the top:

Every school in the nation with an egineering department must be accredited by ABET if they want their department to have any legitimacy. Seeing as they were established in 1932 and are a federation of 28 professional societies, I think they know what they're doing.

I'm not going to look up your personal definition of what a "core" engineering program is. You seem to think that it is electrical, mechanical, civil, and chemical (funny that those are exactly what UND offers) and that all other programs are illegitimate even though they're accredited by ABET. Even though NDSU doesn't have a separate chemical engineering department, they do have a polymers and coatings option in the Mechanical department that works with the Chemistry department, so NDSU does have all the "core" programs.

But, on the other hand, I'm not going to use your personal definition of "core" programs. I'm going to agree with ABET on what constitues an engineering department. They have the experiance and expertises to make that decision.

You don't.

Architecture is not engineering. Never will be. Architecture is applied drawing. There is no math needed to draw. I don't understand why you're accusing me of lumping architects in with engineers. I've made no such statement. NDSU puts architects and engineers in the same college merely for administrative reasons. That doesn't mean anything other than making it easier for the secretaries to do paperwork.

When have I said that taking our athletic program to DI has helped our engineering and architecture college? That's a fairly ludicrus statement to make. Athletics and academics are separate.

NDSU is never going to directly compete with MIT, Cal Tech, or any of the big state public flagships for grants. It's just not going to happen. We are, however, going to continue to expand our departments, increase the number of doctorates granted and graduate students enrolled, and increase the amount of money spend on research as much as we can. I think having Alien and Phoenix on campus will help in that area. As well as the rest of the technology park.

I never said accredited, I said core engineering curriculum..You state simply that you school has more engineering programs which has been proven wrong consistently...Architecture is not an core engineering program. Funny that I've always said that you have core engineering programs like Mechanical, Electrical, and Civil...Good for you, but don't try and state you are better than UND because you have Mfg Engineering, Construction Management, and Landscape Architecture. I hire engineers all the time and haven't come across a landscape architect or a construction management graduate to do core engineering activities in an Engineering business market. So once you tear away your degree programs for the sake of degree programs, then what you have is a department that is a follower of its brother institution in Grand Forks. I can go into details on the various differences in quality between the core programs - For instance, look into the ASME and ASEE awards of each institution and see the difference, but I grow tired of convincing someone who can't see the forest for the trees.

Lastly, you have already given up competing against MIT and Cal Tech...This seems to be the difference between UND and NDSU. We have already competed against these colleges and held our own in the Solar Race and also in the Hydrogen version of the race in the last two years. Again, you talk a good game, but in reality you are a 'wanna be'. So, again have fun beating Cal Poly and pretending, but if you want the real thing, its at UND - where it has been, where it is, and where it will continue to be.

BobIwabuchiFan

[PhillySioux]

Wondering whay your guys opinion on this was :

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=128935

Pretty good article from someone who constantly slams NDSU...

He's dead on. If UND is truly moving up, someone please tell me how we are now better off after pissing away 4 years.

[RD17]

I'll treat it the same way I do all of McFeely's columns -- not waste my time by reading it.

McFeely is just a contrarian who likes to criticize everyone and everything. Those (few) Bison fans who deride him continuously, until an occasional article targets UND instead, and then love him for a day are comical. Anyone who wants to read McFeely knows where to find him, but I personally don't think it's worth rewarding him by discussing his rants here.

Contrarian is an excellent word to describe McFeely. But I can think of an even more descriptive term in this instance: hypocrite. From McFeely's 1/18/2002 column Division I is NDSU's green light:

As much as it pains me to say this, NDSU has no business going Division I.

The problem here is that there seems to be no compelling reason to upgrade to Division I. It can't be that NDSU is so flush with money it can't find ways to spend it. It can't be that Bison teams are so dominant in Division II that the only logical next step toward athletic fulfillment is a move up. It can't be that the Big Ten or some other power conference is courting NDSU. It can't be that the landscape of Division I is so attractive, and that of Division II is so unattractive, that NDSU's hand is being forced.

Since talk of the Bison moving up began, I've believed there are two main factors that should push NDSU toward Division I: Guaranteed membership in a solid, competitive conference and the absolute capitulation of Division II to schools possessing no desire to build competitive programs. Right now, neither of those factors is part of the equation. Quite the opposite, in fact. There appears to be no Division I conference -- solid and competitive or otherwise -- that wants NDSU. And the NCAA recently passed minimum standards for Division II.

NDSU belongs in Division II, in the North Central Conference, with schools like North Dakota, South Dakota, South Dakota State and St. Cloud State.

So, in 2002 McFeely was obviously convinced that Division II and the NCC were the places to be for NDSU. But now in hindsight he's criticizing UND for not tagging along? Whatever. I think next time the "particularly prescient sports columnist" needs to dig a little farther into his own archives unless he enjoys looking like a fool.

[star2city]

He's dead on. If UND is truly moving up, someone please tell me how we are now better off after pissing away 4 years.

Believe it or nor, there were some rather serious reasons:

- The time to post-season eligibility for a UND DI men's basketball team has been reduce from 13 years to 5* years since NDSU declared. (*- if UND is an autobid conference member)

- UND hosted the DII men's basketball championship in 2005 and formerly had hopes of hosting other events - like the DII football championship at the Alerus. The attendance at the DII championship was "not favorable".

- The name issue - what better time to resolve a lack of home field issues if you don't have post-season eligibility?

- The future of GFAFB was highly in doubt. No way were local boosters going to pony up more money if GF unemployment became 20%.

- GF was still in post-flood recovery. Not an ideal time whatsover. Now, does the F-L-*-*-* word even come up?

- UND had no idea what the financials would look like with the REA and Alerus. It now has five years of knowledge.

My own Monday-morning quarterbacking is why didn't we, or NDSU, or SDSU, go DI in 1980 or 1990 or 2000? The rules then were much more lenient. Very few fans have a clue of how much the new DI transition rules punish (enacted in 2002) new DI schools. Schools that moved pre-2002 are already core DI schools. NDSU will not be a core DI school until 2016. UND not until 2019 at the earliest. Core DI schools are the only type schools that help conferences maintain their autobids.

[MplsBison]

You state simply that you school has more engineering programs which has been proven wrong consistently

When did I say that our school has more engineering programs?

I posted a link that shows that UND has five ABET accredited programs and NDSU has seven.

Take that for whatever it's worth, but there now way possible that you can prove that NDSU doesn't have more accredited programs when it's right on ABET's website. Nothing you can say will change that.

...Architecture is not an core engineering program.

I've yet to say that...in all of my posts.

This is the second time you've accused me of this when I've never said this.

Architecture is not a core engineering program. Architecture is not a non core engineering program.

Architecture is not any type of engineering program in any shape or form.

Good for you, but don't try and state you are better than UND because you have Mfg Engineering, Construction Management, and Landscape Architecture.

I didn't say NDSU was better than UND. I only posted a link that shows that we have more ABET accredited programs.

What is your fetish with architecture? Would you stop already?

I hire engineers all the time and haven't come across a landscape architect or a construction management graduate to do core engineering activities in an Engineering business market.

Again with the architects.

Did an architect kill your dog?

Construction engineers only have to take calculus I and collge physics I (the lesser of the college and university physics classes). So I wouldn't compare them with the more traditional engineers that have to take University physics I, II, calculus I,II,III, linear algebra, and differential equations.

But if ABET accredites the program, then the program is accredited, for whatever that's worth.

I can go into details on the various differences in quality between the core programs - For instance, look into the ASME and ASEE awards of each institution and see the difference, but I grow tired of convincing someone who can't see the forest for the trees.

Please do go into the details.

I did go to the ASEE website:

http://www.asee.org/about/publications/pro...nt=2&sequence=3

http://www.asee.org/about/publications/pro...nt=2&sequence=3

And that says the same thing as the ABET website.

Lastly, you have already given up competing against MIT and Cal Tech...This seems to be the difference between UND and NDSU.

Bull*hit.

UND is not competing with MIT and Cal Tech for government grants.

We have already competed against these colleges and held our own in the Solar Race and also in the Hydrogen version of the race in the last two years.

That's what you meant by "competing"?!

Watch out for UND solar and hydrogen racing team! You better be ready Stanford, you're next!

Again, you talk a good game, but in reality you are a 'wanna be'. So, again have fun beating Cal Poly and pretending, but if you want the real thing, its at UND - where it has been, where it is, and where it will continue to be.

Oh! A shot at Cal Poly as well!

Yeah, Poly isn't a very well respected engineering school.

[GeauxSioux]

Believe it or nor, there were some rather serious reasons:

- The time to post-season eligibility for a UND DI men's basketball team has been reduce from 13 years to 5* years since NDSU declared. (*- if UND is an autobid conference member)

- UND hosted the DII men's basketball championship in 2005 and formerly had hopes of hosting other events - like the DII football championship at the Alerus. The attendance at the DII championship was "not favorable".

- The name issue - what better time to resolve a lack of home field issues if you don't have post-season eligibility?

- The future of GFAFB was highly in doubt. No way were local boosters going to pony up more money if GF unemployment became 20%.

- GF was still in post-flood recovery. Not an ideal time whatsover. Now, does the F-L-*-*-* word even come up?

- UND had no idea what the financials would look like with the REA and Alerus. It now has five years of knowledge.

My own Monday-morning quarterbacking is why didn't we, or NDSU, or SDSU, go DI in 1980 or 1990 or 2000? The rules then were much more lenient. Very few fans have a clue of how much the new DI transition rules punish (enacted in 2002) new DI schools. Schools that moved pre-2002 are already core DI schools. NDSU will not be a core DI school until 2016. UND not until 2019 at the earliest. Core DI schools are the only type schools that help conferences maintain their autobids.

I'll add one more to the mix, Women's hockey. New program and no idea on attendance and $$. Hopefully the next couple of years the program will take off and be very successful.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

When did I say that our school has more engineering programs?

I posted a link that shows that UND has five ABET accredited programs and NDSU has seven.

Take that for whatever it's worth, but there now way possible that you can prove that NDSU doesn't have more accredited programs when it's right on ABET's website. Nothing you can say will change that.

I've yet to say that...in all of my posts.

This is the second time you've accused me of this when I've never said this.

Architecture is not a core engineering program. Architecture is not a non core engineering program.

Architecture is not any type of engineering program in any shape or form.

I didn't say NDSU was better than UND. I only posted a link that shows that we have more ABET accredited programs.

What is your fetish with architecture? Would you stop already?

Again with the architects.

Did an architect kill your dog?

Construction engineers only have to take calculus I and collge physics I (the lesser of the college and university physics classes). So I wouldn't compare them with the more traditional engineers that have to take University physics I, II, calculus I,II,III, linear algebra, and differential equations.

But if ABET accredites the program, then the program is accredited, for whatever that's worth.

Please do go into the details.

I did go to the ASEE website:

[url="http://www.asee.org/about/publications/profiles/colleges/index.cfm?schoolrecid=2904

[MplsBison]

Wow.

A beautiful nonsequitor comback about how athletics have nothing to do with academics.

A point I conceeded several posts ago.