NCAA Ruling

[aff]

A court outcome is NEVER predictable. Good try though.

Do you truly believe that. If I went today and sued you for stealing something from me, I would have a 50-50 chance of winning, even though we've never met? The outcome of that sounds pretty predictable doesn't it. These courts don't just cast black magic. There really is a system. If this was a barrel shoot, there would be an uproar in the country. Courts have to be consistent.

[govikes27]

Here are five quick reasons why UND shouldn't be dealing with this:

(1) the Executive Committee lacked the authority to do this in the first place;

(2) what the NCAA is doing is most likely a violation of federal anti-trust law;

(3) the standard of this policy keeps changing and is based upon a faulty presumption;

(4) the NCAA hasn't defined "hostile and abusive" and they aren't applying the appropriate legal standard of the terms "hostile" or "abusive",

(5) UND should be exempt from the Policy under the so-called "namesake tribe" exemption (Spirit Lake).

I'd guess those five would be a good basis of a court case.

I think Sicatoka could be a lawyer! Here's my attempt at playing lawyers:

Points 1 and 4 look to be the meat-and-potatoes of UND's argument. I think UND has a very strong case here, enough to win on these alone.

On further reflection point 3 could be rather persuasive also. The NCAA's inconsistantcy in enforcing a policy (which they lacked authority to create in the first place) can be demonstrated by it's FSU rulings. Mr. Brand fullyknew that FSU had support of the tribe but placed them on the list anyway. So it means it only matters that someone objects. Taking them off means that it only matters if there is tribal support. Either they should never have been on the list, or they should never have come off . Doing both proves the policy has been a capricious one.

I'm disappointed by today's ruling. I should've know better, but I started to believe that the NCAA would back off with signs of greater tribal support. Now it appears they're willing to take this all the way. Needing the approval from the board of higher education makes me wonder if they'll even let UND take this to court. I for one want to see this through. And I'm not even in the "keep the name at all cost!" crowd. To me it's become a bigger issue about the NCAA's power to tell people what is offensive and the terrible precedent this sets up if the policy goes unchallenged. Someday names like "Knights" and "Crusaders" could be deemed "hostile and abusive" to Muslims...

Debate on the local level is good, but unseen bureaucratic rulings on either side of the issue does nothing but make people mad.

Alright, that's my soapbox for today. Just got to get it out of one's system, you know?

[Csonked Out]

there are a few big differences betweeen FSU and UND, first florida state isn't the fighting seminoles, i dont feel that the NCAA has a problem with the seminoles because its just that, the seminoles. So UND can deal with this by just dropping fighting.

Also when this first happened the seminole tribe came right out to the NCAA and faught for the school, went to the press and told them they approved. UND didn't have this, we didn't gain support from both tribes until the last minute, and one didn't even vote on it yet. Add that to the fact that not all alumni want the name, and Phil Jackson even came out against the name, and it seems like the support isn't nearly as strong. I guarantee you these are the things the NCAA noticed, where as with FSU none of these things were there, that being said UND is in a tough spot right now either way.

here are the options:

1) UND keeps the nickname, and in the process looses some alumni support who are against it.

2) UND changes the nickname, and has to accept the fiscal terms as well which are as follows

- removing all logos from the ralph, jerseys, university, papers, websites, and anything else that has to do with the sioux.

- but they would be able to recoup some costs in the selling of new jerse;ys to the public, but it wouldn't be nearly neouigh to matter.

all these things are problems the president must deal with, since a court case insn't relaly that feaible it seems the only option would be to change the nickname and swallow the costs, because that would be much cheaper and much more realistic then going to court. i dont like it as much as the next person, but at this point it would be a better option than having a court case hang in the balance for the next 10 years.

[Sioux-cia]

NIT filed an anti-trust lawsuit against the NC$$. Rather, than going to court where they were sure to lose, the NC$$ bought out the NIT for 40.5 million dollars and paid them an additional 16 million idollars n settlement.

A poll taken in ND found that the majority of Native American do not find the Fighting Sioux name and logo to be hostile and abusive.

Yes, it is better to fight for what you believe is right than to bend over and take it because it will cost too much time and money and there is a possisblity of losing.

The NC$$ in the past several months has changed it's own rules, regulations and policies to fit whatever drivel they are spewing at the time.

aff, you're wrong. The majority of people here believe you are wrong. Nothing you can say or do will change that. So, bend over and take it... How do you like them apples?!! Very rude and wrong of me to state those things and demand you do something you don't want to do. Now you may know a bit how we feel about the NC$$ ruling.

[aff]

Are you an attorney or jsut play one on the internet? Just curious

I would prefer not to give out details of my life to a large anonymous room of people if that's alright with you. In either case, I don't think I've even made a legal argument. All of my arguments have been logic based. If you don't like what I have to say, thats fine, but I have yet to hear anybody explain to me why, if this court case is such a slam dunk, no other school in the country has even attempted to bring it to court. I mean, if theres even a decent chance of winning, say 25%, why hasn't anybody else thought about trying it in the courts? I'll tell you why:

1. You'll Lose

2. You'll waste possibly millions

3. You'll be getting national media attention construed as being a racist institution by liberal media outlets.

If anybody has an explanation I'd love to hear it.

[Csonked Out]

question, if UND goes d1, don't the hockey teams still get to play in the playoffs right away, since they are already d1?

[UNDintheNHL]

hey everyone, i was interviewed by FOX News from Fargo this afternoon about this issue when i was walking back from class. It should hopefully be on the 6 and 9 o clock news. Name is Justin Hamlin. Could someone let me know if I come on? i wont be able to watch either broadcast. Thanks!!

[Csonked Out]

also as a student that will be graduating in december, I am becoming concerned with this whole conflict, and how it will look to the outside world. Will my degree lose any value because of this? I dont know but in this matter the students feelings should also be called upon, since it w8ill effect us as well. AFF i do support the nickname, but at this point i'm willing to go for change. It's almost the curse of winning, sometimes you win a battle, but lose so much in the process that at the end more was lost then won.

[mikeypat15]

We made the front page of msnbc.com though. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12532297/

[The Sicatoka]

if this court case is such a slam dunk, no other school in the country has even attempted to bring it to court.

If anybody has an explanation I'd love to hear it.

Easy.

The courts don't want you to bring in cases until you've exhausted all other remedies in normal channels, in this case meaning gone through a final appeal with the NCAA.

Illinois, North Dakota, and Indiana University of Pennsylvania have just exhausted all possible remedies outside of the courts.

[HockeyMom]

also as a student that will be graduating in december, I am becoming concerned with this whole conflict, and how it will look to the outside world. Will my degree lose any value because of this?

No, you will still hold a degree from the best University in the country.

[ScottM]

also as a student that will be graduating in december, I am becoming concerned with this whole conflict, and how it will look to the outside world. Will my degree lose any value because of this?

Unless you're going work for BRIDGES, Vernon Bellecourt, or Howard Dean, I doubt this issue will have any relevance in the hiring process.

[tnt]

Maybe if we get a white guy that will dress as a Native American and don war make-up and if we all can do the tomahawk chop in unison, the NCAA will look more favorably upon us. It's worth a try.

[aff]

I have a degree in CJ, and have spent over a third of my life working in some aspect of the system. I have also been a defendant in a lawsuit. Nothing is EVER guarenteed in court.

I said 95%, not guarunteed.

[SiouxFanatic]

Wasn't expecting a change in the ruling even in light of the supposed Tribal support. We are the NC$$'s show monkeys and are being made as examples of it's 'PC' power that it wields. If only we had major $$$ like the institutions that got exempted. We could then pay them 'hush' money.

It's time to bring this issue to court where I think the right decision will be made and the NCAA will hopefully be humiliated by it's idiotic rule against what they term 'hostile' and 'abusive' nicknames.

[aff]

NIT filed an anti-trust lawsuit against the NC$$. Rather, than going to court where they were sure to lose, the NC$$ bought out the NIT for 40.5 million dollars and paid them an additional 16 million idollars n settlement.

A poll taken in ND found that the majority of Native American do not find the Fighting Sioux name and logo to be hostile and abusive.

Yes, it is better to fight for what you believe is right than to bend over and take it because it will cost too much time and money and there is a possisblity of losing.

The NC$$ in the past several months has changed it's own rules, regulations and policies to fit whatever drivel they are spewing at the time.

aff, you're wrong. The majority of people here believe you are wrong. Nothing you can say or do will change that. So, bend over and take it... How do you like them apples?!! Very rude and wrong of me to state those things and demand you do something you don't want to do. Now you may know a bit how we feel about the NC$$ ruling.

What am I wrong about? All I've said is what is GOING to happen and why. I don't think I've ever said that I thought it was right. I can guaruntee you that there are at least 800 lawyers that work for the NCAA that think your wrong, and are right now preparing to tear your case apart in a court. I don't care how fanatical you are about the fighting sioux name, you need to at least understand what is working against you. If it turns out I'm wrong, and you will still be using the fighting sioux name, then I'll come on here and tell everybody how stupid I am. But I doubt the NCAA was stupid enough to try and force schools into something that can be beat in court as easily as people here seem to think.

FYI, I saw this quote from your president today:

``We're going to consult with the state attorney general on what our options are,'' Kupchella told Fargo's WDAY radio Friday morning. ``We might have to take some steps to consider some way to preserve the history and tradition and yet modify the name somehow.''

Doesn't really sound all that confident in a court case. Wonder why that could be. You guys should email him and tell him how easy it is to beat the NCAA in court, and that if doesn't agree that the NCAA would be laughed out of court "He's wrong".

[HockeyMom]

I said 95%, not guarunteed.

Okay, I should have said predictable instead of guaranteed.......

Regardless, if things were actually predictable no one would ever go to court on anything, civil or criminal.

We won't know unless we go into court and let it be decided that way. Bottom line- it's going to come down to a jury of REASONABLE people deciding who is more right, the U or the NCAA.

[aff]

Wasn't expecting a change in the ruling even in light of the supposed Tribal support. We are the NC$$'s show monkeys and are being made as examples of it's 'PC' power that it wields. If only we had major $$$ like the institutions that got exempted. We could then pay them 'hush' money.

It's time to bring this issue to court where I think the right decision will be made and the NCAA will hopefully be humiliated by it's idiotic rule against what they term 'hostile' and 'abusive' nicknames.

You guys keep saying that, but I don't really know what you classify the University of Illinios as. I have some friends that attended there, and I don't think its exactly a "poor" school.

[govikes27]

I would prefer not to give out details of my life to a large anonymous room of people if that's alright with you. In either case, I don't think I've even made a legal argument. All of my arguments have been logic based. If you don't like what I have to say, thats fine, but I have yet to hear anybody explain to me why, if this court case is such a slam dunk, no other school in the country has even attempted to bring it to court. I mean, if theres even a decent chance of winning, say 25%, why hasn't anybody else thought about trying it in the courts? I'll tell you why:

1. You'll Lose

2. You'll waste possibly millions

3. You'll be getting national media attention construed as being a racist institution by liberal media outlets.

If anybody has an explanation I'd love to hear it.

I think the majority here would agree court action is not a slam dunk, we just think it's not impossible. I myself think it's the dollars and cents that has kept anyone from taking court action than whether they think they'll win. For small schools it's just cheaper to change the name, and most of the bigger ones have been exempted. I believe Illinois is still considering court action.

And, a part of the reason to fight is admittingly emotionally based. LOTS of alumni are saying that they will stop sending money if the nickname has changed. If UND had just rolled over, many probably would have carried through. If UND fights tooth and nail, and still loses, then people can say, "At least UND did what it could." Not a logical reason, but has real implications ($$), which has guided UND's actions so far and could continue to.

I don't believe for a second national media will be all against UND. Thrown into us vs. them politics, yeah, there will be some strongly biased stories against UND, but conservatives will champion the case as PC gone amuck. Heck, when the policy first came out and Kupchella was quick to respond, Lou Dobbs (of CNN) was praising the president by name, saying "there's a man with integrity" and so on. My reaction was like, "Man, Kupchella's getting more praise on CNN then he does around here."

I just think we need to see this thing through. If we lose, then we lose. We all have got to choose our battles, but some things are worth fighting for. That's my two cents anyway.

[The Sicatoka]

You guys keep saying that, but I don't really know what you classify the University of Illinios as. I have some friends that attended there, and I don't think its exactly a "poor" school.

You don't have to have a lot of money to hire attorneys when they come to you hoping for a cut of an anti-trust ruling settlement. (I'll stop there because I may have said too much already.)

[Let'sGoHawks!]

You don't have to have a lot of money to hire attorneys when they come to you hoping for a cut of an anti-trust ruling settlement. (I'll stop there because I may have said too much already.)

Precisely!

[HockeyMom]

You don't have to have a lot of money to hire attorneys when they come to you hoping for a cut of an anti-trust ruling settlement. (I'll stop there because I may have said too much already.)

[WiSioux]

As I student, I don't care if this tarnishes my degree (which it won't because I'm aviation and we're the best aviation school in the world) but I say keep the name. The NCAA had no right to tell us we have to change our logo. So that this doesn't because a crazy long post, I'll skip my opinions on the NCAA, logo, and going to court.

My question is... I heard that because the university does not own the Ralph Engelstad Arena, they cannot remove the logos or alter the building. Does anyone have any more information on this?

[sioux7>5]

You don't have to have a lot of money to hire attorneys when they come to you hoping for a cut of an anti-trust ruling settlement. (I'll stop there because I may have said too much already.)

I want to quote Charles barkley as well as I can. when this ruling first came out last year. We was asked about it on Bob Costas show on HBO and Charles said that "he thinks it is a ridiculous ruling and maybe the NCAA should worry about graduation rates instead of a nickname". He also said that native amercians want it both ways, they want to complain about the nicknames but they surely want to use it in their names for casinos when they can profit from it.

I have emailed the NCAA and got a short response today and i have also contacted Sen Dorgans office. I want nothing more then next year this time for Brand of Franklin fromthe NCAA to have to hand a Championship trophy to the hockey team. That would be the Best ever. Go Sioux

[ScottM]

You don't have to have a lot of money to hire attorneys when they come to you hoping for a cut of an anti-trust ruling settlement. (I'll stop there because I may have said too much already.)

Yep. Those tobacco lawyers who represented the states did it on a contingency basis too, and made hundreds of millions for themselves, and then some. Same with certain anti-trust lawyers.