thoughts on the Betty

[southpaw]

wow... everyone just settle down. i'd hate to see what happens if we have any more sell-outs. perhaps the world would explode?

if you think the betty wasn't designed as a non-conference/volleyball/practice facility then you weren't around last year. the betty was used for: non-conference basketball games, volleyball and as a practice facility. none of the ncc games were played in the betty, all were in the ralph. please explain to me then why you can't believe that it was intended as a practice/volleyball facility.

i'm going to give the UND administration a little bit of credit by choosing to have the betty rather than renovate the old ralph. financially, it made sense (cost was higher to renovate than build the betty), promotionally it made sense (anyone remember getting into the basketball games free with your hockey ticket on a friday or saturday night last year? get people hooked and you'll attract them to more games, which means more money for you). it worked for me. i hated basketball, but with a game before sioux hockey, i was able to get in some basketball before a hockey game. after the first couple games, i never missed a basketball game that year. still, the only basketball i watch is the sioux, but i'm willing to drive from fargo to see a big game (sioux v scsu). all because they promoted getting into basketball for free with your hockey ticket.

originally here i made arguments for whockey, but i've decided to get it out of the "thoughts on the betty" thread. i've created a new whockey discussion thread and placed my comments there.

[star2city]

promotionally it made sense (anyone remember getting into the basketball games free with your hockey ticket on a friday or saturday night last year? get people hooked and you'll attract them to more games, which means more money for you). it worked for me. i hated basketball, but with a game before sioux hockey, i was able to get in some basketball before a hockey game. after the first couple games, i never missed a basketball game that year. still, the only basketball i watch is the sioux, but i'm willing to drive from fargo to see a big game (sioux v scsu). all because they promoted getting into basketball for free with your hockey ticket.

Any idea of what fraction of last year's tickets in the Ralph were free or reduced? This year, has there been any reduced tickets at the Betty? Since tickets for all games may not be available for walk-ups - the net result should be an increase in season ticket holders for next season.

[southpaw]

Any idea of what fraction of last year's tickets in the Ralph were free or reduced? This year, has there been any reduced tickets at the Betty? Since tickets for all games may not be available for walk-ups - the net result should be an increase in season ticket holders for next season.

i don't think any of last year's games at the ralph were free... the only time the free bball with hockey ticket was with non-conference games when they were played in the betty and sioux hockey was playing in the ralph.

i think rea should evaluate the capacity issue year by year. if we have more sellouts, then we should seriously consider going back to the ralph for conference games only. if all we have is one sellout, then i don't think moving games back to the ralph (except maybe scsu) is a good idea.

[UND92,96]

i don't think any of last year's games at the ralph were free... the only time the free bball with hockey ticket was with non-conference games when they were played in the betty and sioux hockey was playing in the ralph.

i think rea should evaluate the capacity issue year by year. if we have more sellouts, then we should seriously consider going back to the ralph for conference games only. if all we have is one sellout, then i don't think moving games back to the ralph (except maybe scsu) is a good idea.

I did a little research on the attendance issue with regard to women's basketball. The numbers are only available online as far back as the 2000-01 season, but that's a pretty good comparison since that team was the national runner-up. Also, that season all games were at Hyslop, so we take the Ralph factor out of the equation (counting suiteholders who may not be there in the total attendance, etc.). That season, the women averaged 3143 for conference games, with five games having in excess of 3100 people (NDSU, SDSU, USD, SCSU and UNO). Granted, two of those games were against NDSU and SDSU, who of course are no longer on the schedule, but the average included typically poor draws like UNC and Morningside, which brought it down somewhat. Also, all games that year were on Fridays and Saturdays as opposed to Thursday-Saturday. The bottom line is that when the team is very good as it obviously is right now, and should continue to be for at least the next few years, I think there will be several conference games per year which would easily draw better than 3000 if there was the room to put them. I'm not sure how much having bigger end bleachers would add to the capacity, but at least it's something.

[dakotadan]

As I said earlier, I think that if the court was placed on the north end of the ice so that the arena created a "U" around the court and place the portable seating only on the south end of the court that it would help create a more intimate feeling.

They could sell tickets for sections 109-116. Sections 112 and 113 behind the basket could be the student sections. If you place the band on the portable seating facing the horseshoe it would help fill the place with more sound. Also, for larger games the north Club level could be used and would have great sitelines of the court.

If a move to DI is made I think we will see alot more games in the REA. It could be a great drawing tool to help bring in larger schools. Imagine 6-8,000 people in this set-up, it could be a great atmosphere. It could also be a great recruiting tool for the teams.

I am telling you guys, I think this could be a great atmosphere and would solve alot of the problems people have been discussing in this thread.

[UND92,96]

I am telling you guys, I think this could be a great atmosphere and would solve alot of the problems people have been discussing in this thread.

I agree with you. It's at least worth a shot for conference games. If the atmosphere isn't a significant improvement over what it was when the court was in the center and/or if attendance doesn't justify it, then so be it. The Betty would always be there as a fallback, and would still be used for non-conference games.

[Smoggy]

Refurbishing Hyslop is/was not an option. It was a interesting facility to watch basketball from, but the place has way too many issues. It's been remodelled so many times, that it's impossible to find a path from one end to the other. The film room/lounge for the men couldn't even fit the team.

Practice times were horrible no matter what sport you were due to space. The classroom part either had rooms that were too big or too small. Not to mention it was always 90 degrees up there. Weight room was small and locker facilities for regular students on other end of the intramural building.

That place is just becoming old.

What's the cost on remodelling the BSA? 15 million? I'm guessing Hyslop would be that if not more if you're trying to all the extras and not just the main gym.

[UND92,96]

Refurbishing Hyslop is/was not an option. It was a interesting facility to watch basketball from, but the place has way too many issues. It's been remodelled so many times, that it's impossible to find a path from one end to the other. The film room/lounge for the men couldn't even fit the team.

Practice times were horrible no matter what sport you were due to space. The classroom part either had rooms that were too big or too small. Not to mention it was always 90 degrees up there. Weight room was small and locker facilities for regular students on other end of the intramural building.

That place is just becoming old.

What's the cost on remodelling the BSA? 15 million? I'm guessing Hyslop would be that if not more if you're trying to all the extras and not just the main gym.

I agree that it's not going to happen. I only brought it up as a hypothetical--would it have been practical to have done so instead of building the Betty? I look at Williams Arena as an example that it can work to refurbish a very old arena into something pretty nice. Nevertheless, I believe the odds are good that Hyslop may be torn down within the not-too-distant future. Or at least I have heard some rumblings to that effect.

[GeauxSioux]

I haven't seen a basketball game in the Betty, but from what I hear it is just a more intimate place for basketball. I did see two games last year in REA in one of the suites and had a great time. I really didn't feel that the view was that bad even though I was in one of the corners.

How are the concession sales between basketball games in REA compared to the Betty? Being in a suite there is definitely more of an opportunity to spend money on food and drink.

I've seen the image that was posted moving the court to the north end. Wouldn't that put the scoreboard over one of the baskets?

Doesn't Wisconsin play all of their mens and womens basketball and hockey in the Kohl Center? I know that Wisconsin's basketball attendance is far greater than North Dakota's for the men, but I don't know how it is for the women. The greater attendance would obviously make it seem more of a homey place, as I have heard people complain about REA when it is a small crowd.

[legend334]

Refurbishing Hyslop is/was not an option. It was a interesting facility to watch basketball from, but the place has way too many issues. It's been remodelled so many times, that it's impossible to find a path from one end to the other. The film room/lounge for the men couldn't even fit the team.

Practice times were horrible no matter what sport you were due to space. The classroom part either had rooms that were too big or too small. Not to mention it was always 90 degrees up there. Weight room was small and locker facilities for regular students on other end of the intramural building.

That place is just becoming old.

What's the cost on remodelling the BSA? 15 million? I'm guessing Hyslop would be that if not more if you're trying to all the extras and not just the main gym.

The weight room in the Hyslop is way bigger than the weight room in the Betty.

[legend334]

I haven't seen a basketball game in the Betty, but from what I hear it is just a more intimate place for basketball. I did see two games last year in REA in one of the suites and had a great time. I really didn't feel that the view was that bad even though I was in one of the corners.

How are the concession sales between basketball games in REA compared to the Betty? Being in a suite there is definitely more of an opportunity to spend money on food and drink.

I've seen the image that was posted moving the court to the north end. Wouldn't that put the scoreboard over one of the baskets?

Doesn't Wisconsin play all of their mens and womens basketball and hockey in the Kohl Center? I know that Wisconsin's basketball attendance is far greater than North Dakota's for the men, but I don't know how it is for the women. The greater attendance would obviously make it seem more of a homey place, as I have heard people complain about REA when it is a small crowd.

The Kohl Center was built for basketball. Having the seats that are always in the center come even to the floor when the boards are taken out for hockey. Which means when you watch hockey games in there you sort of look down at the guys next to the boards, but they built it this way because they knew they would use it for basketball as well as hockey.

[GeauxSioux]

The Kohl Center was built for basketball. Having the seats that are always in the center come even to the floor when the boards are taken out for hockey. Which means when you watch hockey games in there you sort of look down at the guys next to the boards, but they built it this way because they knew they would use it for basketball as well as hockey.

Sounds like a pretty good design. Still, looking at the seating chart, the seating for the people that aren't down close to the court is not all that different from REA. Pick a section from the link and you get some perspective on their view.

http://www.uwbadgers.com/facilities/kohl_c...ting/index.aspx

We should use the facility which generates the most revenue and fan support. Which sounds like what they tried to do last year, playing the conference games in REA and non-conference in the Betty. I believe that many schools in the country would love to have this dilemma.

[The Sicatoka]

I still believe that the sizing of The Betty is right because of the following:

Expected crowd : Best facility

0 - 3300 : The Betty

3300 - 6500 : The Ralph (lower bowl, plus suites, plus Club Rooms)

6500 - 9000 : The Al in BB configuration (if 13500 around a FB field make it loud, that should do)*

9000 - 13000 : The Ralph (ala Kansas at UND)

* If The Al doesn't work for that, go back to The Ralph for that range and open the upper deck.

The Betty added needed training and workout space. Sure, it's not perfect. But it's four more courts and lockers and a weight room and a study room and a film room and office space. And it was relatively inexpensive ($8 MM) because much of the infrastructure for an arena already existed (due to The Ralph).

Sure, you could have spent more like $20 MM for a new 5000-6000 seat arena, but why? You already have The Ralph and The Al. What you wouldn't have in that scenario is the possibility of putting up an indoor training facility for about $10 MM some time in the not so distant future.

I see this as a choice broken down as:

- three great arenas, but not much training space, and not much athletic facilities money left

- two great arenas, a very good non-conference BB and VB arena, and training space, and the potential for even more space or facilities for other sports

Not everyone has to agree it was the right choice, but I always heard RT say, and still hear Buning say, the issue wasn't playing facilities, but training facilities and facilities for the other sports.

[star2city]

I still believe that the sizing of The Betty is right because of the following:

Expected crowd : Best facility

0 - 3300 : The Betty

3300 - 6500 : The Ralph (lower bowl, plus suites, plus Club Rooms)

6500 - 9000 : The Al in BB configuration (if 13500 around a FB field make it loud, that should do)*

9000 - 13000 : The Ralph (ala Kansas at UND)

* If The Al doesn't work for that, go back to The Ralph for that range and open the upper deck.

When (not if) UND goes DI, the men's and women's basketball doubleheaders will be a thing of the past. Season ticket packages will be separate. That will likely hurt average attendance for both, but total attendance and revenue will increase. If UND was in a 12-school Big Sky, there would be a 22 game conference schedule, with conference games every Thursday and Saturday (alternating between men's and women's weekends) from early December to the end of February. Scheduling decisions as to which venue each team would play in will be more critical. More than likely, both the men and women would play the majority of all their games in the Betty, with rivalry games against NDSU and maybe Montana, Montana State at the Ralph. Until women's hockey attendance picks up, its probably very conceivable that many of their games would be moved to the Olympic ice to minimize scheduling issues with basketball.

[UND92,96]

When (not if) UND goes DI, the men's and women's basketball doubleheaders will be a thing of the past. Season ticket packages will be separate. That will likely hurt average attendance for both, but total attendance and revenue will increase.

Care to venture a guess as to which program it would hurt more?

If UND was in a 12-school Big Sky, there would be a 22 game conference schedule, with conference games every Thursday and Saturday (alternating between men's and women's weekends) from early December to the end of February. Scheduling decisions as to which venue each team would play in will be more critical. More than likely, both the men and women would play the majority of all their games in the Betty, with rivalry games against NDSU and maybe Montana, Montana State at the Ralph. Until women's hockey attendance picks up, its probably very conceivable that many of their games would be moved to the Olympic ice to minimize scheduling issues with basketball.

If UND, NDSU and SDSU were all added to the Big Sky, I think you'd want to have the SDSU games in the Ralph, as well, at least if the game were played on a Saturday night. Those games often drew well over 3000 at Hyslop--although they never had to be played on a Thursday which would keep visiting fans away. Not that I would miss the cowbells, mind you.

[Cratter]

I still believe that the sizing of The Betty is right because of the following:

Expected crowd : Best facility

0 - 3300 : The Betty

3300 - 6500 : The Ralph (lower bowl, plus suites, plus Club Rooms)

6500 - 9000 : The Al in BB configuration (if 13500 around a FB field make it loud, that should do)*

9000 - 13000 : The Ralph (ala Kansas at UND)

* If The Al doesn't work for that, go back to The Ralph for that range and open the upper deck.

The Betty added needed training and workout space. Sure, it's not perfect. But it's four more courts and lockers and a weight room and a study room and a film room and office space. And it was relatively inexpensive ($8 MM) because much of the infrastructure for an arena already existed (due to The Ralph).

Sure, you could have spent more like $20 MM for a new 5000-6000 seat arena, but why?

But why? Lets see. So you can have consistency playing/watching in one arena throughout the season.

Nobody wants to play basketball in 3 different arenas.

Atmosphere, money and schedules. All three of those now conflict because they built the Betty to small.

Play all the games in the Betty-lose money. Play all the games in the Ralph- lose atmosphere. All of this because they built the Betty short 2,000 seats. 5,000-5,500 would have been perfect for ALL games throughout the season for years and years to come regardless of division. Now we are stuck with trying to guess what the attendance for certain opponents will be in the following years and move them into according arenas? Makes no sense.

I highly doubt UND wants to pay the city of Grand Forks money to play basketball, especially when they already paid for their own basketball arena.

[The Sicatoka]

All of this because they built the Betty short 2,000 seats. 5,000-5,500 would have been perfect for ALL games throughout the season for years and years to come regardless of division.

But those 2000 seats would have doubled the cost of the arena.

For example:

Gonzaga - 6,000 seats, $25 MM

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/sports/story.asp?ID=37430

Northern Illinois - 6,100 seats, $22+ MM

Any hope of getting Dale and the football lads, and the other teams, an indoor training facility would have been all gone.

[Cratter]

But those 2000 seats would have doubled the cost of the arena.

For example:

Gonzaga - 6,000 seats, $25 MM

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/sports/story.asp?ID=37430

Northern Illinois - 6,100 seats, $22+ MM

It would have been well worth the extra $8-12 Million, especially with the current headaches now present.

[The Sicatoka]

It would have been well worth the extra $8-12 Million, especially with the current headaches now present.

What headaches? These?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't see the logic in building a 5500 seat arena (that'd probably not have the configurability of The Betty) next to an arena with a 5500 seat lower bowl.

[Cratter]

What headaches? These?

No These!

The one that says building an arena smaller than our conference games averaged a few years back isn't a smart idea.

Building the second-smallest basketball arena in the NCC:

USD (Dakotadome) 10,000 (approx.)

SCSU (Halenbeck) 6,400

MSU (Taylor) 4,800

Augie (Elmen) 4,000

UNO (Sapp) 3,500

UMD (Romano) 2,759

For the greatest drawing team in the NCC.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't see the logic in building a 5500 seat arena (that'd probably not have the configurability of The Betty) next to an arena with a 5500 seat lower bowl.

I didn't realize we could cut the top half of the Ralph off. It still is a 13,000 seat (for basketball) arena (with no atmosphere and conflicting schedules with hockey), regardless of how you want to spin it.

[The Sicatoka]

Who cares what the other guys built.

The key questions are:

- Are you consistently filling yours?

- Do you have somewhere to go if yours no longer is big enough?

This conversation is based around one or two dates where it was full. You don't build churches for Christmas and Easter, especially when you have a cathedral next door and another down the street.

As far as "no atmosphere in The Ralph", why not try to get more BB fans out consistently and create the atmosphere? As far as schedule, Wisconsin (Kohl) and Ohio State (Schott) do just fine making schedules work. It can be done.

To me, the extra $10-12 MM would be better spent on an indoor training facility.

Again, we'll agree to disagree.

[Cratter]

This conversation is based around one or two dates where it was full. You don't build churches for Christmas and Easter, especially when you have a cathedral next door and another down the street.

As far as schedule, Wisconsin (Kohl) and Ohio State (Schott) do just fine making schedules work. It can be done.

It can be done but not flawlessly:

In mid-March the men

[The Sicatoka]

Hmmm .... what to do, what to do, in Grand Forks, if you wanted to host both hockey and a state basketball tourney in the same town, at the same time, what to do, what ever to do ....

http://www.theralph.com

http://www.aleruscenter.com

Question for someone who's seen them and counted: How big are the end unit seating systems at The Betty? I'm guessing about 9 or 10 rows and about 38 seats wide for about 750 "end seats" total.

I ask that because the same units at The Al are 19 rows by 39 seats (741 seats) each (for a total of 1482 on the ends). Yes, I counted.

Could the end units from The Al be used in The Betty?

If my estimate is close, instant extra (roughly) 800 seats and suddenly "4000" seats.

[teamsioux]

One problem of switching courts back and forth during the season was brought to the forefront last season. WBB played non-conference in Betty, conference in the Ralph and then back to the Betty for the post season tourneys. Now that is not the reason we lost (with those refs we would of have lost in any arena), it just is not in the best interest of a team to switch courts that often. Especially switching over to the Ralph for the conference games, they get very little practice time to get used to that cavernous background. Just another disadvantage to put up with when UND jumped the gun on this arena issue. BTW, didn't even necessarily need the 5,500 being mentioned, just the 4,000 they conned us into believing would of have been nice.

[UND Fan]

It would have been well worth the extra $8-12 Million, especially with the current headaches now present.

Where would the $8-12 million have come from?