UND's DI review committee

[bincitysioux]

this lacrosse thread seems to be so disconnected from the financial realities facing the University

I'd have to agree. I liked the idea of Lacrosse when it was first thrown out, but after looking into it, I realize that it is not feasible. If UND did start up Lacrosse, and joined the Great Western conference, it would still likely require 5-7 flights to the eastern seaboard every year. I doubt that any attendance revenues could offset the costs of this. Baseball and softball may not be money makers or self-sufficient, but I think they are probably losing far less money than Lacrosse would.

[coachdags]

I'd have to agree. I liked the idea of Lacrosse when it was first thrown out, but after looking into it, I realize that it is not feasible. If UND did start up Lacrosse, and joined the Great Western conference, it would still likely require 5-7 flights to the eastern seaboard every year. I doubt that any attendance revenues could offset the costs of this. Baseball and softball may not be money makers or self-sufficient, but I think they are probably losing far less money than Lacrosse would.

Im sorry guys like I've said before we take this LEAP...we will not be adding only dropping..?

[dakotadan]

It is possible though that the classification review committee could decide that UND should stay DII in it's primary sports but consider adding 1 more DI men's sports and 1 more DI women's sports, i.e. Lacrosse, or move up 1 men's and 1 women's sport already offered to DI.

[coachdags]

It is possible though that the classification review committee could decide that UND should stay DII in it's primary sports but consider adding 1 more DI men's sports and 1 more DI women's sports, i.e. Lacrosse, or move up 1 men's and 1 women's sport already offered to DI.

i do not think u can do that....only one in each is allowed..and we are there..

[bincitysioux]

Okay, I sat and went through every school and wrote down their information. Because I did it all by hand I may have switched a few numbers up. If anyone catches any mistakes let me know so that I can change them. The numbers look like they are all from 2003. Sorry I couldn't get it in a better graph so that it was easier to read.

Morgan St, MD

[govikes27]

The 2004-05 average basketball attendance of the 51 schools that have joined DI-AA football since 1985 is 2,517.

The average of UND in 2004-05 was 2,791.

The average of the Big Sky schools is 2,615. (I messed up in my original post of 2,290 for BSC )

The average of the Mid-Con schools is 2,401.

The average of a possible DI NCC is 2,464.

The average of the top 9 DII conferences (excluding the NCC) is 1,239.

The average football attendance of the 51 schools that have joined DI-AA since 1985 is 5,169.

The average of UND in 2005 was 9,426.

The average of the Big Sky schools was 10,281.

The average of the Great West schools was 5,868.

The average of a possible DI NCC is 7,293.

The average of the top 9 DII conferences (excluding the NCC) is 4,223.

The average enrollment of the 51 schools to join DI-AA since 1985 is 8,939.

UND enrollment: ~13,000

Big Sky enrollment: ~17,000

DI NCC enrollment: ~12,000

Average enrollment of all schools that compete in I-AA football: ~10,000

Average enrollment of DII schools: ~4,300

The point to all this is that I think UND is more similar to DI-AA schools than they are to DII schools.

Agreed, UND is more similar to a DI mid-major than almost all DII institutions. But in terms of athletics a closer measurement might be size of athletic budgets. I know that UND's is like much larger than almost any other DII school and most of the NCC, but what what about the nearby DI conferences? I think the Montana schools have budgets around 15-16 million IIRC. I'll try to look find out, but if anyone knows or can help I'd greatly appreciate it.

[IowaBison]

Montana and Montana State are around $10 million each, right around UND.

UND also has to support its hockey programs as well as pay for increased travel.

I'd say the University would need about 3 to 4 million dollars more per year to be competitive in Division I.

[bincitysioux]

Agreed, UND is more similar to a DI mid-major than almost all DII institutions. But in terms of athletics a closer measurement might be size of athletic budgets. I know that UND's is like much larger than almost any other DII school and most of the NCC, but what what about the nearby DI conferences? I think the Montana schools have budgets around 15-16 million IIRC. I'll try to look find out, but if anyone knows or can help I'd greatly appreciate it.

According to this year's Equity in Athletics Disclosure website http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.asp

UND's athletic budget is $10 million.

Avg Big Sky budget is $7.9 million. (Ranging from $5.2 million to $12.1 million)

Avg Great West budget is $7.5 million. (Ranging from $4.3 million to $12.2 million, NDSU @ $7.7 million)

Avg NCC budget is $6.5 million. (Ranging from $4.3 million to $10 million)

NCC budgets are probably near the top of DII because five of the seven members support hockey. USD and Augustana have the lowest budgets in the NCC. Despite the hockey argument, I think it is interesting that UND's budget is right in line with both the Big Sky and GWFC, even when hockey is not factored in.

[dlsiouxfan]

I think these figures demonstrate that a Division I move by UND isn't the huge leap that many naysayers make it out to be. We would be competitive right away with division I mid- majors in women's basketball and would soon be in men's basketball. Football would be competive at the I-AA level immediately. We need to do this as soon as possible before NDSU gets too far ahead of us. The fact is if we continue to play with the UMC- Crookstons and UMary's of the world, while they're playing Montana it's only a matter of time before the casual ND sports fan starts placing the quality of their athletic program ahead of ours. As a former Sioux athlete who was a part of teams that routinely beat the Bison this thought truly bothers me. Moving up is in UND's best interest and if we continue to remain Division II we almost certainly will begin to sacrifice the success of our revenue sports (football, BB), so that our non- revenue ones can prosper against marginal competition.

[The Sicatoka]

Given the athletic departments current fiscal situation, the elimination of these programs is possible ...

Given the FY 2005 EADA data showing UND with a (albeit very small) profit and NDSU with a perfectly magical "break even" (to the dollar no less ), should we read into these comments concerns about programs at schools who've recently made the jump as well?

Edited January 3, 2006 by The Sicatoka

[DamStrait]

And to reiterate, UND almost certainly needs to sponsor golf if it wants to find a DI conference.

This is an awfully confidently worded statement. Do you have anything other than your hatred of all things UND to support this? Or perhaps it'll be you that sets the conference membership criteria? Personally, I think a DIAA NCC is the most likely new home for UND athletics (This is not to say that it is likely, but that it is the most likely). If that is the case, I can see that conference membership rules will likely change (and change to be more flexible, rather than more rigid).

[IowaBison]

Personally, I think a DIAA NCC is the most likely new home for UND athletics (This is not to say that it is likely, but that it is the most likely). If that is the case, I can see that conference membership rules will likely change (and change to be more flexible, rather than more rigid).

Thats an awfully confidently worded post. Do you have anything other than your amorous feelings towards UND to support this?

[DamStrait]

Thats an awfully confidently worded post. Do you have anything other than your amorous feelings towards UND to support this?

Yes. Common sense.

[IowaBison]

Then you, DamStrait, have no common sense at all.

Please tell me, since you are quite confident in your statement, which current NCC schools will be going DI and when they will announce their decision to do so.

Assuming SDSU and NDSU would join, which they might do in the short term (I hope you would agree that any school would immediately abandon the conference given the offer of any other conference), which other schools would move?

(You need 5)

1. UND

2.

3.

4.

5.

[dakotadan]

Thats an awfully confidently worded post. Do you have anything other than your amorous feelings towards UND to support this?

[Bison Dan]

This is an awfully confidently worded statement. Do you have anything other than your hatred of all things UND to support this? Or perhaps it'll be you that sets the conference membership criteria? Personally, I think a DIAA NCC is the most likely new home for UND athletics (This is not to say that it is likely, but that it is the most likely). If that is the case, I can see that conference membership rules will likely change (and change to be more flexible, rather than more rigid).

If the ncc is looking at DI now why didn't they go a few years ago when NDSU and SDSU asked them to? What has changed?

[IowaBison]

Thanks for the emboldened and underlined characters. However, I didn't that it was necessary to qualify my previous post with comments to note its subjective nature which should have been able to be understood from its context. Heck, DamStrait could sense my seething hatred for the University, obviously I didn't need to add anything.

[The Sicatoka]

And to reiterate, UND almost certainly needs to sponsor golf if it wants to find a DI conference.

Golf? Golf?

And here all along I thought it was strong academics (you are creating your "peer group" by coming together in a conference, right?), solid foundations (fiscal, facilities, fans), and either football or basketball programs that can produce (national tourney dollars) that conferences look for.

Tell Dale Lennon, tell Craig Bohl: It's golf.

For the record, of the conference names normally invoked in these discussions (NCC, Big Sky, Missouri Valley, Mid-Con, and heck the MAC and Big Ten) all sponsor swimming. No, wait, all except the Big Sky. But not having swimming in looking for a conference doesn't seem to come up as a "gotta have" issue as golf has. Something seems amiss.

Edited January 3, 2006 by The Sicatoka

[IowaBison]

Golf? Golf?

And here all along I thought it was strong academics (you are creating your "peer group" by coming together in a conference, right?), solid foundations (fiscal, facilities, fans), and either football or basketball programs that can produce (national tourney dollars) that conferences look for.

Tell Dale Lennon, tell Craig Bohl: It's golf.

Tell Doug Fullerton that UND is dropping golf.

[Cratter]

If the ncc is looking at DI now why didn't they go a few years ago when NDSU and SDSU asked them to? What has changed?

That's easy UND is now looking at D1.

[Bison Dan]

That's easy UND is now looking at D1.

Why?

[The Sicatoka]

Why?

Heck, that's easy.

"The University of North Dakota is open to an eventual move to Division I, .... if very many NCC schools make the move to D-I; then we could well give it some extra consideration." -- Charles E. Kupchella, President, UND, February 21, 2002

Northern Colorado

NDSU

SDSU

Now rumblings at SCSU ....

[BisonMav]

Northern Colorado

NDSU

SDSU

Now rumblings at SCSU ....

IMO, SCSU is only going to make a DI move IF UND leaves the NCC.

[Air Force One]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-01-04-a...cs_x.htm?csp=34

Article from today's USA Today on the highest revenue grossing D1 schools

"Teams that don't produce revenue decreased profit at Ohio State to slightly more than $120,000. Georgia had the nation's most profitable college sports program, making $23.9 million more than it spent."

[UND92,96]

IMO, SCSU is only going to make a DI move IF UND leaves the NCC.

I agree. The losses of UNC, NDSU and SDSU really crippled the NCC from a scheduling standpoint. Another loss would probably spell the end for the NCC as a dII conference. Aside from UNO, who could conceivably join the MIAA, the remainder of the NCC would have to either go dI/I-AA, or join the NSIC. I don't think anybody else really WANTS to go dI/I-AA, but they almost have to at least explore the possibility since the NSIC isn't going to make many of the their fans/alums very happy.