Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Thanks. And thanks to Sioux-cia for providing the links. But I am somewhat surprised that some of the comments made by Kupchella in the articles didn't trigger more discussion here. For example:

• Kupchella believes that most residents of the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation support UND's use of the nickname and logo, even if the tribal council doesn't. He also said the Spirit Lake tribal council has refused to change or rescind its 2000 resolution giving UND conditional approval to use the Sioux name, despite heavy lobbying by the NCAA and others.
  

Comments?

I'll ask this question, and it applies to schools like FSU and Utah also: just how often are these tribes going to vote on granting permission? Say the Seminole tribe rescinds their permission next year; what happens then? And then what happens if they vote again two years from now and then decide its now okay?

Have today's Seminoles, Utes, Choctaws granted permission in perpetuity to use their names? What if their descendants are offended more than they are??

IMHO, another ridiculous example of what happens when a bloated bureaucracy delves into areas where it doesn't belong.

[Sioux-cia]

I can't answer your questions which are very relevant to the issue at hand. This is exactly why a win in a court of law will carry more weight than tribal approval. I AM NOT saying that we shouldn't have tribal approval. It would be great if we did. But given the fact that tribal leaders, as do their opinions, change near as often as the wind, we cannot rely on tribal approval to keep our name and logo. A court of law telling the NC$$ to get the f@## out of the PC busines will be much more valuable.

[PCM]

I'll ask this question, and it applies to schools like FSU and Utah also: just how often are these tribes going to vote on granting permission? Say the Seminole tribe rescinds their permission next year; what happens then? And then what happens if they vote again two years from now and then decide its now okay?

Those are excellent questions. If the NCAA can lobby the Spirit Lake tribe in North Dakota to drop its support, how can Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan and Mississippi College feel safe with the exemptions they've been granted? What if the NCAA decides to involve itself in the process of lobbying tribes in other states to withdraw their support?

That's why other NCAA members need to take heed of this quote from Kupchella:

..if the NCAA can to this to us by executive fiat, who knows what the limits of that kind of action would be? The NCAA prides itself on being a bottom-up organization with a great deal of institutional autonomy. I think all the institutions that are members come to their relationship with the NCAA with that understanding. Whether they know it or not, this is a threat to all of us

[dagies]

That's why other NCAA members need to take heed of this quote from Kupchella:

[dagies]

But I am somewhat surprised that some of the comments made by Kupchella in the articles didn't trigger more discussion here. For example:

[*]It was Kupchella who initiated the Fighting Sioux logo in use today. Most people probably think Earl Strinden or Roger Thomas or Ralph Engelstad had more to do with it. But Kupchella said he was the one who took the initiative to have an updated design created, which explains why he was so taken aback by the reaction when the logo was unveiled. It might also be why he continues to defend the name and logo.

When I read this I didn't think this was new information. I was thinking that the new logo was unveiled, then the larger process of deciding whether to change the name or not came about. But I could be way wrong on the timelines there.

[*]Kupchella didn't think the name issue was a big deal in 1999 and, seven years later, he still doesn't think it should be a big deal. In fact, he said that he doesn't spend as much time on it as most people think. My impression was that he views it as an intellectual exercise that provides a good learning experience for students and faculty alike.

This is surprising. The public perception is that this is a very time and energy and resource consuming situation. He does seem to be fighting this out of principle, not because of love for the logo/nickname.

[*]The story peddled by the media the past five years about Kupchella wanting to do the right thing and change the name, only to be thwarted by the bullying Engelstad and the State Board of Higher Education, isn't accurate. Kupchella had no problem with the SBoHE decision to keep UND's nickname. He just wishes the board would have made the decision sooner. And although he and Ralph didn't always see eye-to-eye on everything, he says they got along fine.

I will admit that, even taken out of context, it's pretty difficult to read Kupchella's comments about the tenuous position UND would be in if all the tribes asked for the nickname use to be discontinued in any other way. Without reading the whole thing, I will accept what he's said because he's been on the level about everything else. It's hard to see what context could change the quote.

[*]Discussions with the tribes regarding the name and logo are ongoing. Kupchella said the first objective is to continue to use the name and logo in a manner that's acceptable to everyone. If that doesn't work, they'll explore whether there's a way to modify the name and logo to make them acceptable to everyone. He also said: "We're not adamant about keeping this name for all eternity." He said that changing the architecture of the REA is not an option.

We've heard that discussions about modifying or even forgoing use of the nickname were on the table, but it was fairly recent and didn't seem to be a very "large" reference. It was interesting to see Kupchella's comments again here because it seems to verify that potentially modifying or changing the nickname is a very real possibility. It's understandable. What will be interesting is to watch it play out. Is there a way to solicit the necessary support for the nickname as it is? What could be the possible modifications that would make it acceptable and maintain the heritage of the nickname? How real are the possibilities that the name will need to be dramatically changed?

[*]Kupchella believes that most residents of the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation support UND's use of the nickname and logo, even if the tribal council doesn't. He also said the Spirit Lake tribal council has refused to change or rescind its 2000 resolution giving UND conditional approval to use the Sioux name, despite heavy lobbying by the NCAA and others.

I definitely dug the references to the Spirit Lake Tribe wondering why their support is being questioned. That's huge, IMO. Apparently only to me though, because Nick Coleman and the NCAA don't agree.

[PCM]

When I read this I didn't think this was new information. I was thinking that the new logo was unveiled, then the larger process of deciding whether to change the name or not came about. But I could be way wrong on the timelines there.

As far as I can remember, your timeline is correct. However, while I knew that Kupchella was the person who publicly unveiled the new logo, I didn't know that it was his idea to get a new one designed. Maybe that was discussed somewhere else and I missed it. I'd always assumed that the initiative for the new logo came from Ralph Engelstad or Earl Strinden or possibly Roger Thomas, not Kupchella himself.

I will admit that, even taken out of context, it's pretty difficult to read Kupchella's comments about the tenuous position UND would be in if all the tribes asked for the nickname use to be discontinued in any other way. Without reading the whole thing, I will accept what he's said because he's been on the level about everything else. It's hard to see what context could change the quote.

Without having access to the e-mail in question, all I can do is accept Kupchella's word that the sentence related to one of several possible scenarios discussed in the document. Even the story in the February 2001 Chronicle of Higher Education mentioned that the e-mail was 16 pages long and that it covered a variety of scenarios.

However, it was that story in which the quote was spun as "evidence" that Kupchella was leaning toward changing the name. In other words, the writer didn't really know for certain what Kupchella had in mind. He was making a guess based on one sentence from a 16-page document. Over time, that single sentence has been quoted as "proof" that Kupchella would have changed the name if not for Engelstad's letter and the subsequent intervention by the State Board of Higher Education.

The key quote from Kupchella in the story is:

It never came down to me doing one thing and them (board members) doing something else. The only issue I had with the board's decision was that if they were going to make it, I wished that they would have made it sooner.

So as Kupchella explains it, he was not unhappy with the board's decision to make UND retain the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. He only wished that it had happened sooner rather than later. There would have been no need for Engelstad to write the letter he did, a letter that to this day gives the entire affair a black eye.

Remember, many members of the media and of this board were surprised that Kupchella came out swinging against the NCAA within days after its anti-Indian nickname policy was announced. Many assumed that Kupchella would leap at this as an opportunity to do what he supposedly wanted to do all along. And the Nick Coleman's of the world still want you to believe that that evil bully, Ralph Engelstad, was responsible for preventing Kupchella from changing the name.

The explanation Kupchella gives makes far more sense. He wouldn't have considered changing the name unless both Sioux tribes in the state called for it. But they never did. In fact, as Kupchella noted in the story, the Spirit Lake tribe passed a resolution giving UND conditional approval to use the name and logo. That immediately made his concern about having no tribal support a moot point. Thus, until the Spirit Lake Tribal Council either rescinds its December 2000 resolution or passes a new one, the sentence from the e-mail is irrelevant. And it's been irrelevant for nearly six years.

[IowaBison]

PCM, if you could get to the bottom of the situation you'd have a pretty good book.

I'd buy the first copy.

[dagies]

As far as I can remember, your timeline is correct. However, while I knew that Kupchella was the person who publicly unveiled the new logo, I didn't know that it was his idea to get a new one designed. Maybe that was discussed somewhere else and I missed it. I'd always assumed that the initiative for the new logo came from Ralph Engelstad or Earl Strinden or possibly Roger Thomas, not Kupchella himself.

Without having access to the e-mail in question, all I can do is accept Kupchella's word that the sentence related to one of several possible scenarios discussed in the document. Even the story in the February 2001 Chronicle of Higher Education mentioned that the e-mail was 16 pages long and that it covered a variety of scenarios.

However, it was that story in which the quote was spun as "evidence" that Kupchella was leaning toward changing the name. In other words, the writer didn't really know for certain what Kupchella had in mind. He was making a guess based on one sentence from a 16-page document. Over time, that single sentence has been quoted as "proof" that Kupchella would have changed the name if not for Engelstad's letter and the subsequent intervention by the State Board of Higher Education.

The key quote from Kupchella in the story is:

So as Kupchella explains it, he was not unhappy with the board's decision to make UND retain the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. He only wished that it had happened sooner rather than later. There would have been no need for Engelstad to write the letter he did, a letter that to this day gives the entire affair a black eye.

Remember, many members of the media and of this board were surprised that Kupchella came out swinging against the NCAA within days after its anti-Indian nickname policy was announced. Many assumed that Kupchella would leap at this as an opportunity to do what he supposedly wanted to do all along. And the Nick Coleman's of the world still want you to believe that that evil bully, Ralph Engelstad, was responsible for preventing Kupchella from changing the name.

The explanation Kupchella gives makes far more sense. He wouldn't have considered changing the name unless both Sioux tribes in the state called for it. But they never did. In fact, as Kupchella noted in the story, the Spirit Lake tribe passed a resolution giving UND conditional approval to use the name and logo. That immediately made his concern about having no tribal support a moot point. Thus, until the Spirit Lake Tribal Council either rescinds its December 2000 resolution or passes a new one, the sentence from the e-mail is irrelevant. And it's been irrelevant for nearly six years.

I too was one of those who was surprised at Kupchella's quick and tenacious defense. It has been interesting to me that his defense seemed to have mostly been on the NCAA process and indictment of UND rather than any support for the name itself. The pieces of the article that you point out, where Kupchella reveals that it was his idea to do this new logo, and also his personal views about the merits of the nickname are enlightening, IMO.

I agree IowaBison, if there's one person who has a pretty good handle on the many variables involved, it's PCM, from Ralph's controversial past to the many twists and turns this story has taken in the last several years. One day when this is over, hopefully with UND in the driver's seat there could be a very interesting review.

[PCM]

I too was one of those who was surprised at Kupchella's quick and tenacious defense. It has been interesting to me that his defense seemed to have mostly been on the NCAA process and indictment of UND rather than any support for the name itself.

With regard to the NCAA, I think that what put Kupchella over the edge was the falseness of the charge and the unfairness of the process. With the nickname and logo, my impression is that he essentially said to the name-change proponents: I have an open mind on the issue and it's up to you to convince me that UND's use of the name and logo is offensive in any way.

He's heard all the arguments and he remains unconvinced. His analogy about how he'd feel if someone wanted to honor Latvians illustrates that. He understands that it is indeed possible to use American Indian words and imagery in an offensive manner, but he doesn't believe that UND is doing that. Plus, he believes that the Fighting Sioux tradition is something that should be maintained and is nothing about which UND should be ashamed.

[choyt3]

Ladies and Gentlemen, here come your University of North Dakota.......... "LIGHTENING STRIKES"!!!

[PCM]

PCM, if you could get to the bottom of the situation you'd have a pretty good book.

I'd buy the first copy.

A book on Ralph Engelstad's life is one that I think would be really interesting. It'd have to be an honest, candid biography, not a "puff piece." I'd certainly be willing to write it.

[southpaw]

A book on Ralph Engelstad's life is one that I think would be really interesting. It'd have to be an honest, candid biography, not a "puff piece." I'd certainly be willing to write it.

on your mark....

get set..

go!

[PCM]

on your mark....

get set..

go!

Show me the money!

[The Sicatoka]

From the link above:

Museum item may illuminate nickname issue

DEVILS LAKE - As a reward for his friendship, one of our Spirit Lake Nation tribes presented a number of gifts to an early and very successful Devils Lake banker. These gifts now are on display here at our Old Post Office Museum. One item is a very beautiful diamond willow walking cane with a carefully crafted snake effigy attached to it in a very original manner, as if the serpent were wriggling its way up the shaft.

Nearly 12 years ago, I first asked one of the local elders who identified himself as "having descended from the original Cut-Head Sioux" who came to settle on North Dakota's Fort Totten Reservation, "Why would someone give a person he liked and admired a walking stick with a snake attached?" The elder replied, "This is not something for the white man to know."

Late one dark and snowy winter afternoon when no other visitors were present, he asked me if he might be allowed to say some prayers of blessing in our museum because of the many Indian artifacts housed within it. This came after many visits and a good many philosophical discussions between the two of us.

He gave me permission to watch if I wished, although he did ask that I move outside of the main room in which he would pray.

Upon completing the blessing, he motioned to me to come over to the display case housing the snake-decorated walking stick. "I will now tell you about the snake," he said.

By placing the snake - a symbol held sacred by his people as representing the stealth of the snake in overcoming one's enemies - upon the walking stick, the gift-givers were extending a great blessing to the recipient, he said.

I felt privileged to have had this bit of knowledge imparted to me - even more so as I thought about the fact that the symbol of a blessing to one person may be misconstrued as an insult to another.

Suddenly, too, I realized that the reference to their enemies as "Snake People - Natowessiw" by the Ojibway likely was no more than a descriptive reference to one of their traits - that of holding the snake in high esteem.

So, is it not possible that some who judge the name "Sioux" to be offensive are doing so more out of ignorance than knowledge? In making judgments regarding the UND nickname, may they not perhaps be blinded by their own ignorant prejudice and unwilling to explore and accept the truth?

Jim Schiele

Schiele is museums director for Lake Region Heritage Center, Inc.

The stealth of the snake as a great blessing in overcoming adversaries is a blessing and held in high esteem.

Slightly different view of snake from the standard Judeo-Christian dogma, eh? Kind of like, " ... I thought about the fact that the symbol of a blessing to one person may be misconstrued as an insult to another."

[star2city]

The stealth of the snake as a great blessing in overcoming adversaries is a blessing and held in high esteem.

Slightly different view of snake from the standard Judeo-Christian dogma, eh? Kind of like, " ... I thought about the fact that the symbol of a blessing to one person may be misconstrued as an insult to another."

Agree totally that a symbol of a blessing to one person may be misconstrued as an insult to another. Even in Judeo-Christianity, Moses uses a snake figuratively as a Christ symbol on more than one occasion:

Exodus 7:8 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, 'Perform a miracle,' then say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,' and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

Numbers 21:4 But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

[GeauxSioux]

Nick Coleman gets ripped.

http://anti-strib.blogspot.com/2006/06/str...ts-go-wild.html

[dagies]

Nick Coleman continues his vendetta against UND:

Why does UND insist on being so hardheaded?

The only letters to the editor in the Star Trib on Coleman's column all ripped Coleman:

http://www.startribune.com/563/story/510175.html

http://www.startribune.com/563/story/510172.html

http://www.startribune.com/563/story/510171.html

[WiSioux]

Just thought I would share a neat experience with everyone. I was just outside walking my dog; and I live in Madison, WI; I have my Sioux Crew shirt on and a Sioux hat on... one of the people that passed me noticed and was asking me questions about going to school at UND. When we parted ways he said "I hope you get to keep your logo." I thought that was really neat. Rivals in the WCHA, allies against the NCAA...

[WildSioux]

Just thought I would share a neat experience with everyone. I was just outside walking my dog; and I live in Madison, WI; I have my Sioux Crew shirt on and a Sioux hat on... one of the people that passed me noticed and was asking me questions about going to school at UND. When we parted ways he said "I hope you get to keep your logo." I thought that was really neat. Rivals in the WCHA, allies against the NCAA...

Nice experience you had which is quite different from mine this past weekend. I was up in Duluth this past weekend with my girlfriend for my friends wedding. We were down at Canal Park eating dinner at Grandma's with some other friends. After dinner my girlfriend and I drove out to Park Point to see the houses, the park, and the Sky Harbor Airport. On the way back, we had to stop at the lift bridge because a ship was coming in to port. We were about 3 cars from the bridge so we decided to park and walk down to see it come in. It was kind of chilly out and my girlfriend borrowed a hooded UND sweatshirt from my Mom. On the walk back to the car a guy passed us who was Native American and saw her sweatshirt. Keep in mind it only had the ND in white over a green sweatshirt. No Fighting Sioux, no Indian head, nothing but the ND. He said something along the lines of "Nice that you won a bunch of awards you f-@#$%^

I almost and should have said something. But at this point I didn't want to start an altercation and let him walk by. If I did though I wouldn't have started anything. Instead I would have just talked to him to see how he felt about it which was obviously torwards the negative side. Probably better that I didn't though.

[dagies]

Nice experience you had which is quite different from mine this past weekend. I was up in Duluth this past weekend with my girlfriend for my friends wedding. We were down at Canal Park eating dinner at Grandma's with some other friends. After dinner my girlfriend and I drove out to Park Point to see the houses, the park, and the Sky Harbor Airport. On the way back, we had to stop at the lift bridge because a ship was coming in to port. We were about 3 cars from the bridge so we decided to park and walk down to see it come in. It was kind of chilly out and my girlfriend borrowed a hooded UND sweatshirt from my Mom. On the walk back to the car a guy passed us who was Native American and saw her sweatshirt. Keep in mind it only had the ND in white over a green sweatshirt. No Fighting Sioux, no Indian head, nothing but the ND. He said something along the lines of "Nice that you won a bunch of awards you f-@#$%^

I almost and should have said something. But at this point I didn't want to start an altercation and let him walk by. If I did though I wouldn't have started anything. Instead I would have just talked to him to see how he felt about it which was obviously torwards the negative side. Probably better that I didn't though.

I wonder what awards he was referring to.

[PCM]

Just thought I would share a neat experience with everyone. I was just outside walking my dog; and I live in Madison, WI; I have my Sioux Crew shirt on and a Sioux hat on... one of the people that passed me noticed and was asking me questions about going to school at UND. When we parted ways he said "I hope you get to keep your logo." I thought that was really neat. Rivals in the WCHA, allies against the NCAA...

I had something similar happen during the 2006 WCHA Final Five in St. Paul. I was buying a Coke at a concession stand in the X while wearing my black Sioux hockey jersey. Out of the blue, the guy waiting on me said, "I really like the way North Dakota's jerseys are put together. They're very sharp. I hope UND gets to keep the Fighting Sioux name."

I was so taken aback that all I said was, "Thanks. I do too."

It's probably safe to assume that this person wasn't a Sioux fan. I thought it was great that he went out of his way to say that.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I not only wrote to Coleman, but also the the Strib's Reader's Representative. Click on the "Reader's Representative" link just above the column for an email address:

Her response:

IIRC, the quote was that wealthy benefactors would wear chicken feathers to a cocktail party if they could. What stops them? I went to a cocktail party (a bunch of people drinking beer) last weekend and nothing stopped me. The benefactors clearly still can do the same. Has the editorial writer ever witnessed this? What basis does he have for this opinion?

Sorry, that response by the "readers representative" was clearly non-responsive.

JMHO, but rather than writing the "readers representative" you might want to start writing the advertisers.

[WildSioux]

I wonder what awards he was referring to.

I don't know, the only thing my girlfriend and I could think of are the 7 National Championships the Sioux have won. Unless he was referring to the Indians fighting in real wars which I may be mistaking for awards. Who knows, both her and I thought it was kind of funny actually as we got back in the car and drove off.

[Siouxmama]

I had something similar happen during the 2006 WCHA Final Five in St. Paul. I was buying a Coke at a concession stand in the X while wearing my black Sioux hockey jersey. Out of the blue, the guy waiting on me said, "I really like the way North Dakota's jerseys are put together. They're very sharp. I hope UND gets to keep the Fighting Sioux name."

I was so taken aback that all I said was, "Thanks. I do too."

It's probably safe to assume that this person wasn't a Sioux fan. I thought it was great that he went out of his way to say that.

I also was at the Final Five this year and went to the t shirt vendor and a girl (30 something) walked up next to me, got right in my face, and said "Sioux Suck". Total stranger, took me off guard, I just looked at her told her she was a perfect example of why so many people dislike the MN fans. I stressed that it's not the team, it's the fans. After a bit of a tounge lashing from me, her boyfriend/husband tried to smooth things over by being extra nice to me. Had to just shake my head and walk away. Not worth the breath talking to people like her.

[SiouxPride0303]

I also was at the Final Five this year and went to the t shirt vendor and a girl (30 something) walked up next to me, got right in my face, and said "Sioux Suck". Total stranger, took me off guard, I just looked at her told her she was a perfect example of why so many people dislike the MN fans. I stressed that it's not the team, it's the fans. After a bit of a tounge lashing from me, her boyfriend/husband tried to smooth things over by being extra nice to me. Had to just shake my head and walk away. Not worth the breath talking to people like her.

I'm in Chicago and I was in Union Station getting a water before my train ride to the Frozen Four. The gal (who was a minority) that took my money commented on my Sioux jersey and wanted to know where it was from. I explained and why I was wearing it and where I was going. She just said how beautiful the logo is and how lovely the colors are etc etc. It was such a nice thing to hear.