Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[yababy8]

I agree with you but to play devil's advocate the tribes have had plenty of time to get something done. Ron Thunder has been out of office for awhile now and they are only getting approval now. If its not of top priority for the tribes than I really don't understand any arguement they would have if the name would be changed before they finally got around to voting. It would be just like everything else in the world and the finger would be pointed elsewhere, at the SBoHE.

I think it is misguided to aim any criticism at the tribes at all.

This whole thing was manufactured by the media and the NCAA, contrary to public perception, the Sioux people did not bring this on. We (Sioux Fans) are asking them to help us tell the sick F*cks at the NCAA ( Myles Brand and Co.) that they were 100% out of line with their sweeping moronic decree.

The Tribes are doing us a favor and we should just say thanks for helping out! and they should say, 'no problem and thanks for honoring our ancestors that's pretty cool'.

That is the way it should all go down.

[mksioux]

The key to keeping the Sioux nickname right now is Charles Murphy scheduling a referendum before the SBoHE acts to retire the nickname. If he schedules the vote, the SBoHE won't dare retire the nickname no matter how much they want to do it. And it doesn't really matter if the referendum is scheduled for June, July, August, whenever, as long as it's before November 30. The Summit timeline would become irrelevant. The SBoHE will not retire the nickname with a pending referendum by Standing Rock. Nor should they.

[MplsBison]

The key to keeping the Sioux nickname right now is Charles Murphy scheduling a referendum before the SBoHE acts to retire the nickname. If he schedules the vote, the SBoHE won't dare retire the nickname no matter how much they want to do it. And it doesn't really matter if the referendum is scheduled for June, July, August, whenever, as long as it's before November 30. The Summit timeline would become irrelevant. The SBoHE will not retire the nickname with a pending referendum by Standing Rock. Nor should they.

The SBoHE will and should retire the nickname if the referendum isn't before June. SR has had its chance and they will probably blow it for good.

[dagies]

I think it is misguided to aim any criticism at the tribes at all.

This whole thing was manufactured by the media and the NCAA, contrary to public perception, the Sioux people did not bring this on. We (Sioux Fans) are asking them to help us tell the sick F*cks at the NCAA ( Myles Brand and Co.) that they were 100% out of line with their sweeping moronic decree.

The Tribes are doing us a favor and we should just say thanks for helping out! and they should say, 'no problem and thanks for honoring our ancestors that's pretty cool'.

That is the way it should all go down.

You are exactly right. The Tribes don't owe us anything. For whatever they are invested in seeing UND keep using the name is the only reason they need to act. We supporters of using the nickname need them a whole lot more than they need us. They owe us nothing. We should be grateful for anything they do that supports the continued use of the nickname.

[tho0505]

Another "deadline" for applying for the summit? This obsession with the Summit wont ever end will it? Just be patient and Standing Rock will have a vote, we'll keep our Sioux name, and get into the Summit no problem.

[Knickball2]

Prediction, Standing Rock will have it's vote on it's own timetable, that tribe will not be pushed by any organization to do it rapidly; they will vote overwhelmingly to support

the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo and subsequently, the Fighting Sioux will be accepted in a conference with an automatice bid. The rush that MinneapolisBison and the others constantly suggested will be proven to be inconsequential, 80 years of Fighting Sioux tradition lives on.

[JLP157]

Of all the board, Goon is the one I would be most likely to buy a beer.

Look out Goon, it appears that a certain someone may have a man-crush on you! Perhaps Bison Boy wants to have a Beer "Summit" with you ..... Just be thankful that you're not inflatable, cuz you would probably end up in a threesome with him and "Joe" (or "Jo").....

[darell1976]

Scenario time: The SBoHE lets the SR vote, they approve the name. Now where does this 30 year contract by the Board fit in. Do they ask each tribal council how long they would approve the name and give choices like 10, 20 or 30 years? Or IMO a lifetime approval. The NCAA required approval nothing more but if they rule against the name the name is automatically gone no questions asked.

[MplsBison]

Another "deadline" for applying for the summit? This obsession with the Summit wont ever end will it? Just be patient and Standing Rock will have a vote, we'll keep our Sioux name, and get into the Summit no problem.

That would be fine. But I want UND in the Summit in 2011, not 2012 or later and I don't see how saving the Sioux nickname is worth the year or more delay, sorry.

[MplsBison]

Prediction, Standing Rock will have it's vote on it's own timetable, that tribe will not be pushed by any organization to do it rapidly; they will vote overwhelmingly to support

the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo and subsequently, the Fighting Sioux will be accepted in a conference with an automatice bid. The rush that MinneapolisBison and the others constantly suggested will be proven to be inconsequential, 80 years of Fighting Sioux tradition lives on.

This is a dream, utopian scenario.

Certainly one aspect is already false, SR is being pushed, probably already faster than they wanted.

But that won't and can't stop, if the nickname has any chance in you know where of being saved. SR has only a couple more months to do something substantial.

[MplsBison]

I've asked this question before as well. I think this is a point many overlook. The SBoHE doesn't want to deal with this scenario again. They'll want some form of gaurantee or contract stating a term of use.

This is also the biggest potential area where the tribes each stand to take a substantial dollar cut from any Sioux merchandise sales.

Why they wouldn't have already negotiated a deal, in exchange for the use of the nickname is dumbfounding and brainless, IMO.

But, I suppose there may be an overarching sense of "don't make deals with the white man", that type of attitude that prevents that from happening. Not sure, just a guess.

[tho0505]

That would be fine. But I want UND in the Summit in 2011, not 2012 or later and I don't see how saving the Sioux nickname is worth the year or more delay, sorry.

The deadline is this Nov 2010, how wouldnt UND be in the summit by 2012? The summit wants us in there, who are we kidding, like the summit wouldnt benefit by having UND playing teams in the league.

[Knickball2]

Oh yeah, Standing Rock is being pushed alright, let's see SBoHE retiring nickname if Standing Rock doesn't decide by October 30, 2009. Just be glad the individuals like

Tom Iron care enough to gather signatures. No personal benefit to those taking action.

[MplsBison]

The deadline is this Nov 2010, how wouldnt UND be in the summit by 2012? The summit wants us in there, who are we kidding, like the summit wouldnt benefit by having UND playing teams in the league.

It would depend on how willing or scared into expansion the Summit would be without UND as a candidate. If something major happens and the Summit has to move, it may move into a position where it must expand quickly and UND is not available. Then it may be locked in that position and unable to take UND for a few more years.

Eventually UND will get in the Summit League. It might be 5 years from now at the latest, but they will get in eventually.

But why risk it? Why not have a guaranteed spot for 2012?

[MplsBison]

Oh yeah, Standing Rock is being pushed alright, let's see SBoHE retiring nickname if Standing Rock doesn't decide by October 30, 2009. Just be glad the individuals like

Tom Iron care enough to gather signatures. No personal benefit to those taking action.

I suppose it is nice that someone is willing to do that for free.

One thing that bugs me about all of this: if the Sioux nickname is such a fundamental part of UND's history and existence, why wouldn't the school just buy the tribes off like Florida State, etc.?

It appears like UND has not really offered anything of significance to "change their minds". What I mean is, why wouldn't UND do something like offer each tribe a 30 year contract with each tribe getting 20% of all UND Fightion Sioux merchandise sales, in exchange for usage of the nickname, from the very beginning? Why not treat each tribe like a business partner, each with vested interest in the 'program'?

Maybe Ron HHIS et al were really just holding out for a better deal?

I can already see the responses "why should we have to pay?! Blah blah blah!!". I suppose it's typical thinking for the region, try to be as modest and practical as possible...why pay for water from a creek that runs through your farm? Nothing in the world is free. And trying to get something for free will eventually burn a bridge, at least.

[Knickball2]

You just don't listen, I have told you from the beginning, Standing Rock will have a vote and it will mirror

Spirit Lake. The opposition on the reservation is minimal, now that Ron His Horse Is Thunder isn't making over $100,000.00 a year to do nothing

but oppose the nickname. The Veterans and tribal elders are the intellect behind this action, as well as the families of those that gave the University of

North Dakota their blessing in the early 70's. It will happen, as for the 30 year agreement, that can be worked out as a licensing or merchandising agreement

at a later point in time. Individuals here tend to think that the Erich Longies and Jesse Taken Alives will simply put the issue to another vote at their leisure.

Those opposition leaders do not enjoy the type of following that will allow that to happen, nor the resources. This process is moving along about as I have expected

it would, personally knowing many of the parties involved, so Utopia, no, realistic. We will get to the Summit after this has played out.

[Knickball2]

The money thing has bugged the hell out of me since the beginning, I know that the intial negotiation with

Spirit Lake was through Mr. Vern Lambert, and he was demanding much more than a simple small percentage, then he got

disenchanted with the lack of serious negotiation from the UND end of the equation. Very difficult to arrive at a consensus on

who should be negotiating and with whom on both sides. It would have been much simpler if Ralph Engelstad had entertained

some of the Native Americans and their ideas when the arena was being constructed.

[mksioux]

I've asked this question before as well. I think this is a point many overlook. The SBoHE doesn't want to deal with this scenario again. They'll want some form of gaurantee or contract stating a term of use.

Of course the SBoHE will want a 30-year agreement. But there is no way they will drop the nickname if both tribes are on record approving the nickname and UND is in full compliance with the NCAA settlement agreement.

Obviously the ideal way to proceed long-term would be an agreement where UND shares a percentage of licensing on the logo with both tirbes. But there is no deadline on such an agreement and the SBoHE is not going to drop the nickname if such an agreement cannot be worked out by November 30.

[the green team]

Sharing revenue via merchandise is not a feasible solution in my book. That isn't done anywhere esle. And I know you all will mention Florida State, but I know for a fact that the Seminole Tribe receives zero $'s in regards to the nickname and logo licensing. I have a connection down there and we have had many discussions about this. And while it's not a major source of funding, every litttle dollar is important. Not to mention, why if it's a source of pride would it be expected to have to pay for it some way?

Let's hope that we keep the nickname that would be great...but-- I guess you could say that I am firmly against any sort of sharing when it comes to the nickname and logo licensing. It's either a source or pride or it's not. I'm not going to pay you $$$'s in order for you to decide that you have a source of pride.

[MplsBison]

Sharing revenue via merchandise is not a feasible solution in my book. That isn't done anywhere esle. And I know you all will mention Florida State, but I know for a fact that the Seminole Tribe receives zero s in regards to the nickname and logo licensing. I have a connection down there and we have had many discussions about this. And while it's not a major source of funding, every litttle dollar is important. Not to mention, why if it's a source of pride would it be expected to have to pay for it some way?

Let's hope that we keep the nickname that would be great...but-- I guess you could say that I am firmly against any sort of sharing when it comes to the nickname and logo licensing. It's either a source or pride or it's not. I'm not going to pay you $ s in order for you to decide that you have a source of pride.

And as I predicted: a rationalization for "cheaping out" on the tribes. That's fine, just don't expect them to approve UND using the nickname.

[82SiouxGuy]

And as I predicted: a rationalization for "cheaping out" on the tribes. That's fine, just don't expect them to approve UND using the nickname.

The tribes have repeatedly said that the name isn't for sale. They don't want money. As is mentioned above, Florida State does not pay royalties is spite of the fact that everyone assumes that they do. The only people that believe UND should pay for use of the name are those that don't understand the situation or the culture of the Native Americans. If the tribes would like a payment of some kind I wouldn't be opposed to discussing it. But it isn't on the table right now, it hasn't been put on the table by either side, and I don't think that it really will be discussed.

[Knickball2]

The discussion that Spirit Lake's Vern Lambert had with UND and Ralph officials initially was about scholarships for Spirit Lake members. The current

Native American programs at UND are almost entirely run by Chippewas not Sioux. Therein lies much of the on campus opposition, that of Leigh Jenotte, a Chippewa, and

his followers. For many years, his was one of the few voices of opposition, it's my opinion that he and others like him eventually convinced some Sioux leaders and some

Sioux students that the nickname and logo is insulting and hostile. Also, my opinion, that it stems from historical jealousy between Chippewa and Sioux. I am of

Sioux lineage, and it's my opinion that those Chippewa educational leaders would have been alright with the nickname and logo, if it were the Fighting Chippewas. That being said, it is fact that the majority of Native American graduates over the last 25 years have been Chippewas, that is who they have recruited and that is who they

have provided the tuition waivers. The Native American programs on campus should have representatively more Sioux and less Chippewa. There, I said it, now argue with me.

[tho0505]

The discussion that Spirit Lake's Vern Lambert had with UND and Ralph officials initially was about scholarships for Spirit Lake members. The current

Native American programs at UND are almost entirely run by Chippewas not Sioux. Therein lies much of the on campus opposition, that of Leigh Jenotte, a Chippewa, and

his followers. For many years, his was one of the few voices of opposition, it's my opinion that he and others like him eventually convinced some Sioux leaders and some

Sioux students that the nickname and logo is insulting and hostile. Also, my opinion, that it stems from historical jealousy between Chippewa and Sioux. I am of

Sioux lineage, and it's my opinion that those Chippewa educational leaders would have been alright with the nickname and logo, if it were the Fighting Chippewas. That being said, it is fact that the majority of Native American graduates over the last 25 years have been Chippewas, that is who they have recruited and that is who they

have provided the tuition waivers. The Native American programs on campus should have representatively more Sioux and less Chippewa. There, I said it, now argue with me.

Long live the Sioux name!

[Siouxman]

This is also the biggest potential area where the tribes each stand to take a substantial dollar cut from any Sioux merchandise sales.

Why they wouldn't have already negotiated a deal, in exchange for the use of the nickname is dumbfounding and brainless, IMO.

But, I suppose there may be an overarching sense of "don't make deals with the white man", that type of attitude that prevents that from happening. Not sure, just a guess.

You are an insult to Native American culture and you don't even know enough to realize it. You keep pushing what you want and what you think, on your timeline, without ever considering the Native Americans. I have dealt with tribes enough to know that they will deal with issues in their own time, not yours. That is their culture and the way they do things. You can't change it and neither can the SBOHE. Saying they have had enough time is simply egostistical and a failure to understand their culture. Second, you are insulting them with the discussion of selling the name. In their words they consider any money in exchange for the use of the Fighting Sioux name as an insult. It is not about money. It is about their cultural heritage, customs, and past ceremonies. You are as bad as the outside white experts coming in and telling Native Americans what they should want and think. For just once, spend some time reading up about what the various factions of the tribe have been saying on the issue and what concerns them. Try to understand it rather than force your fantasies into their realm.

[Blackheart]

You are an insult to Native American culture and you don't even know enough to realize it. You keep pushing what you want and what you think, on your timeline, without ever considering the Native Americans. I have dealt with tribes enough to know that they will deal with issues in their own time, not yours. That is their culture and the way they do things. You can't change it and neither can the SBOHE. Saying they have had enough time is simply egostistical and a failure to understand their culture. Second, you are insulting them with the discussion of selling the name. In their words they consider any money in exchange for the use of the Fighting Sioux name as an insult. It is not about money. It is about their cultural heritage, customs, and past ceremonies. You are as bad as the outside white experts coming in and telling Native Americans what they should want and think. For just once, spend some time reading up about what the various factions of the tribe have been saying on the issue and what concerns them. Try to understand it rather than force your fantasies into their realm.

Well said...the guy is just here to stir it up; has no stake in the game, just being a pain in the ass...'ignore' works great.