PCM Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 What really upsets me is people are trying to invent racism at UND and no body has presented anything in the way of proof, (if there is I have yet to see any) heck the ACLU, not a conservative organization by any stretch of the imagination found nothing when it visited UND, so are we to say they are full of crap? When was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Hillary Clinton offends me and I am sure there are other people that are offended by her leftist views too, should we call for her to be removed from office. That would be nice, but unfortuantely only people in the state of New York have that power and the majority of them appear to be of the same ilk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 When was that? I read it on line and I don't remember where I saw it. I figured it had to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 That would be nice, but unfortuantely only people in the state of New York have that power and the majority of them appear to be of the same ilk. I know but I am illustarting how ridculous this argument has become. The US Constitution does not say I have the right to not be offended. Second. I am sick and tired of people saying UND is like Nazi central. Star article blog am a proud Hidatsa, Mandan, Oglala, Hunkpapa man who did graduate from that school of sin - UND. I was there to protest the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 I read it on line and I don't remember where I saw it. I figured it had to be true. Are you perhaps referring to the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights investigation of UND in 2002? That's not the ACLU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray77 Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 I know but I am illustarting how ridculous this argument has become. The US Constitution does not say I have the right to not be offended. Second. I am sick and tired of people saying UND is like Nazi central. Star article blog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undsportsfan Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Ok, far too many replies and questions for one person to answer. And I don't have all the answers, Or I'm just not good with words too. One, I was insulted by being generalized. Fightingbooya and I discussed and apologies made and accepted. That is between the two of us. And it's 'settled'. We keep steering away from the issue on the nickname too. The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc. And exactly my point. I'm a sports fan. I get up and excited and agressive... I know what we say about the opposing teams. No matter at what level the team is at. And for that reason, I think the nickname should be gone. I don't like hearing anything towards Sioux, or any native for that reason, as I'm sitting there in the stands. I'd like to simply enjoy a game. Mr. Fool Bear, well, yes, like I'm one person, he's one person too. He has been told stories of racism. Before when I supported the nickname I witnessed lots of racism and was a victim of it too. During class, after, before... even during work. Did I make a big deal? No. I didn't want to. I felt alone or it wouldn't be a big deal as it should have been. I have been reading lots about debates of nicknames. I'll post some links. I will give it to you to read though, I don't agree with everything, but I agree with a lot. It's not just the Fighting Sioux nickname, there's others I don't like. I wasn't raised to feel like a victim of racism, etc... never heard a complaint in my family that started or ended with 'because I'm native.' but at the age of 5, watching baseball... seeing the tomahawk chop, I knew that was wrong. I didn't like being mocked. http://www.bluecorncomics.com/mascots.htm http://www.iwchildren.org/barb.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politic...43c58dc21be6946 http://www.aics.org/mascot/cornel.html http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411618 http://www.racismagainstindians.org/UnderstandingMascots.htm http://www.inwhosehonor.com/ http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/psych.html http://www.aistm.org/cornel.countering.htm http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish...icle_0880.shtml http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/041406H.shtml it's a lot to read... but it's all interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Ok, far too many replies and questions for one person to answer. And I don't have all the answers, Or I'm just not good with words too. One, I was insulted by being generalized. Fightingbooya and I discussed and apologies made and accepted. That is between the two of us. And it's 'settled'. We keep steering away from the issue on the nickname too. The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc. And exactly my point. I'm a sports fan. I get up and excited and agressive... I know what we say about the opposing teams. No matter at what level the team is at. And for that reason, I think the nickname should be gone. I don't like hearing anything towards Sioux, or any native for that reason, as I'm sitting there in the stands. I'd like to simply enjoy a game. Mr. Fool Bear, well, yes, like I'm one person, he's one person too. He has been told stories of racism. Before when I supported the nickname I witnessed lots of racism and was a victim of it too. During class, after, before... even during work. Did I make a big deal? No. I didn't want to. I felt alone or it wouldn't be a big deal as it should have been. I have been reading lots about debates of nicknames. I'll post some links. I will give it to you to read though, I don't agree with everything, but I agree with a lot. It's not just the Fighting Sioux nickname, there's others I don't like. I wasn't raised to feel like a victim of racism, etc... never heard a complaint in my family that started or ended with 'because I'm native.' but at the age of 5, watching baseball... seeing the tomahawk chop, I knew that was wrong. I didn't like being mocked. http://www.bluecorncomics.com/mascots.htm http://www.iwchildren.org/barb.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politic...43c58dc21be6946 http://www.aics.org/mascot/cornel.html http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411618 http://www.racismagainstindians.org/UnderstandingMascots.htm http://www.inwhosehonor.com/ http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/psych.html http://www.aistm.org/cornel.countering.htm http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish...icle_0880.shtml http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/041406H.shtml it's a lot to read... but it's all interesting. Although I don't agree with your position, I appreciate the information you posted and the level headed case you made. Cooler heads will prevail no matter what happens with the name issue at UND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 "undsportsfan": You're of a different point of view on this issue than the majority (of both American Indians and the general population). That's OK. Open, rational discourse is what makes this country great. Like it says in one of the briefs to the court, even ... the NCAA concedes, reasonable people disagree about the use of Native American imagery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDog Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Yes, undsportsfan has made some thoughtful points. But he/she failed to "link" the racism he/she has endured to the logo or nickname. This is one thing I don't understand. Show me some direct correlation between the two. You know what I think? Some people are going to be racist regardless of the nickname. Secondly, I read with great interest undsportsfan's thoughts on the misuse of the logo. I was at the 7 Clans Casino in Thief River Falls a while back. The logo for the Casino is a representation of some sacred feathers. I know feathers to be of great importance in the Indian culture. Near the swimming pool in the water park there were many of these logos inlaid in the concrete surrounding the pool. I watched as kids and adults walked across these feathers. Dripping swim suits. Bare feet. Is this ok? Disrespectful? I never get a straight answer on this...by the way, a few posts back someone brought up Vernon Bellecourt's name...what he actually said was that any Native American who supported the Fighting Sioux nickname was a "retard". I know because I was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxforeverbaby Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc. I have one question. If I am reading this right, you don't believe that Bennet Brien knew that his logo was going to be used on door mats and all the rest. Is that correct? If not, I am sorry that I took it wrong. If it is true, that doesn't make sense. He was to design a logo for UND and he didn't realize that UND would use it one merchandise. I would think that he would have know that one. I do like your arguements though. I don't agree with you on all of them, but you are much better at explaining your points than some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc. If Bennett Brien is so horrified by the logo's use, then why does he continue to be a proponent for the Fighting Sioux nickname? You never did answer my question about the tribal casino using images of eagle feathers to advertise on the side of a Grand Forks bus where the "feathers" are splashed with mud and covered with road grime. Why is it acceptable to do that but not use the Fighting Sioux logo in any of the manners you describe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I haven't read through all of the information provided in the links provided by undsportsfan, but I've read enough to find some commonality in it. It seems most of the links talk about nicknames such as Indian or Warrior, inapproriate chants and hand motions, cartoon-like logos and white men dressed as mascots. The University of North Dakota does not have these things. As I said previously, UND has a beautifully designed logo and the name Fighting Sioux. Is the name Sioux offensive to Native Americans? I ask this because I have read where some try and say that Sioux is a deragatory name. But if it is deragatory, why it is used on a casino and a manufacturing facility? I digress. UND has no mascot. There is no chanting. There are no feathers worn inappropriately. No tomahawk chop. I'll trot out my Fighting Icelanders one more time and hope to get someone to present a serious repsonse to the question that I posed previously. What's up with this? Change The Name The future looks promising in dismantling a lot of Native American mascots throughout America. The University of North Dakota FIGHTING SIOUX is currently taking steps to remove their logo from all sports uniforms. UND has been known to have a very good hockey team going to the "Frozen Four" college hockey final four many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxforeverbaby Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 What's up with this? Change The Name at first I thought that was referring to the NCAA's policy but it is from July 13th, 2005. Indeed, what is up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegas_Sioux Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 at first I thought that was referring to the NCAA's policy but it is from July 13th, 2005. Indeed, what is up? WoW- Some people have too much time on their hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undsportsfan Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I had not once said that Bennet Brien is horrified at the use of the art. But in the perspective as an artist in general, when I had heard of the art contest, which I have entered plenty of, I would have never imagined that my image would be at the bottoms of dog dishes, floor mats, etc. That is my opinion. Not Bennet Brien's. I am not here to represent Mr. Brien, so do not think those are his words or opinion at all. His intentions were well intended. But the bridging of the gap didn't happen. It just stirred them back up. I'm trying to discuss the use of Sports Nicknames and American Indians. Not trying to discuss casinos. Not trying to discuss life on reservations. Not trying to discuss scholarships or grants. The nickname perpetuates negative stereotypes about American Indian people and has a negative impact on us. the nickname just doesnt belong in sports arenas. I'd like to be able to attend games without that feelling of awkwardness just as many other Native sports fans. And I don't want to see my children go through it either or debating/questioning their ethnicity over a nickname. Just as I've seen over the decade i've been here in Grand Forks. And I feel that until the name is retired respectfully, we will continue to see this within the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southpaw Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I feel that until the name is retired respectfully, we will continue to see this within the community. i, and i'm sure many here, feel that even without the name, unfortunately these things will still continue. i don't think it's a nickname problem, but a society problem. it's unfortunate that racism exists, but i don't think it has to do with the Fighting Sioux nickname, as it does with attitudes in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 If a nickname "makes you feel" all those things, one would think you have much deeper problems and I do not mean that in a bad way. No one, no nickname can "make" you feel anything. How/why do you give a nickname and other people that kind of power over you? The only ones who see "stereotyping" manifested through a simple nickname are the PC'ers. There obviously are self-esteem issues that need to be addressed and the nickname will not change those issues. The PC'ers apparent argument seems to me to be analogous to the argument that there will be less smoking or that smoking will start to be a thing of the past if there are no "Joe Camel" shirts. Ridiculous. We are all responsible for our own feelings and we need to assume ownership of them. Blaming a nickname and supporters of a nickname for deep-seated issues is deflecting and deferring that ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I had not once said that Bennet Brien is horrified at the use of the art. But in the perspective as an artist in general, when I had heard of the art contest, which I have entered plenty of, I would have never imagined that my image would be at the bottoms of dog dishes, floor mats, etc. That is my opinion. Not Bennet Brien's. I am not here to represent Mr. Brien, so do not think those are his words or opinion at all. His intentions were well intended. But the bridging of the gap didn't happen. It just stirred them back up. I'm trying to discuss the use of Sports Nicknames and American Indians. Not trying to discuss casinos. Not trying to discuss life on reservations. Not trying to discuss scholarships or grants. The nickname perpetuates negative stereotypes about American Indian people and has a negative impact on us. the nickname just doesnt belong in sports arenas. I'd like to be able to attend games without that feelling of awkwardness just as many other Native sports fans. And I don't want to see my children go through it either or debating/questioning their ethnicity over a nickname. Just as I've seen over the decade i've been here in Grand Forks. And I feel that until the name is retired respectfully, we will continue to see this within the community. from what I recall...Bennet Brien was essentially commissioned to produce the work and was compensated well for his effort. That's how America works! (See CAPITALISM - it's in the dictionary!) I haven't seen him complain about its commercial usage at all. The work itself and the explanation of the usage of colors, etc...symbolize exactly WHAT UND's nickname stands for. Have you tried to contact the "artist" that designed the Cleveland Indians logo?? You might have more of a bone to pick with them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 and to be completely honest here "undsportsfan"...lets go 2 years into the future...UND decides it's tired of the constant battle, gives in, and decides to drop the "Fighting Sioux" name. BIG WIN for you on paper....but do you seriously think every UND fan will immediately burn all of their old fighting sioux clothes?? No...true UND Sports fans will wear their Sioux jerseys and logo merchandise - regardless of what the "official" nickname is ....until all their clothes literally crumble from repeated washings in about 10 years. Try to "ban" people from wearing what they want to athletic everts?? You're f*'ing with the "free speech" end of the constitution now, my friend, and that would be a whole different deal.. The sad thing you don't realize is the nickname is a BRIDGE, not an obstacle, to 2 sides getting together...UND fans feel the name is theirs - You feel the name is exclusively yours...there is a way to get together here but sadly, you won't look beyond your own issues to work beyond it...and I might mention the name of the group OPPOSED to finding a compromise (only a nickname change is acceptable!) is called.... BRIDGES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 The NCAA is learning what it's like to be Indian oh, the more I read, the more I'm bothered.... You realize the entire purpose of the NCAA is based on making money? If they would have organized for the purpose of racial justice and equality...they would have done things a LOT different than they have done:ohmy: Just the fact they've done so well in white capitalistic America is EXACTLY the reason they feel the need to address "racial inequality" now...it makes them feel better socially They can grant Florida State an "exemption" even though they have FAR MORE racist imagery than UND - that's "OK"... BUT the fact the NC$$ is getting heat over their policies makes them "feel like an indian"....? ....that sounds racist in itself! BOO-HOO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Fighting the NCAA This case will be an important test of just how far the NCAA can enforce its politically correct dictum and if they prevail will only open up the floodgates to names that lack emotion but don't offend a single soul. Maybe the NCAA can just allow the teams to take on the names of the sponsors of their stadiums. For example, the Maryland Terrapins could just become the Bankers or ATM's reflecting the $20 million that Chevy Chase Bank just agreed to pay for stadium naming rights. Hewlett Packard could have teams with such great names as Printers and Toner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Fighting the NCAA Great notion! Syracuse could cut a deal with "Minute Maid", 'cause we know of all the citrus crops grown around Syracuse, NY. Then again, I said just cut a deal with this car manufacturer and keep the green (their racing color*) thus putting Myles Brand's lame-a$$ Pontiac to shame. * be sure to click "Emerald" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I had not once said that Bennet Brien is horrified at the use of the art. But in the perspective as an artist in general, when I had heard of the art contest, which I have entered plenty of, I would have never imagined that my image would be at the bottoms of dog dishes, floor mats, etc. That is my opinion. Not Bennet Brien's. In other words, you think that Brien should feel the same way that you would, but he obviously doesn't. That was my point. I'm trying to discuss the use of Sports Nicknames and American Indians. Not trying to discuss casinos. What you're doing is dodging the issue. You get bent out of shape about representations of eagle feathers being on the floor as part of a logo, but when I point out that a tribe endorses the practice of using depictions of eagle feathers on the side of a bus to advertise its casino, you say you don't want to discuss it. That is hypocricy, which is all too typical of the hyporicy continually displayed by those who advocate that UND drop the Fighting Sioux name and logo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyMom Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I'm trying to discuss the use of Sports Nicknames and American Indians. Not trying to discuss casinos. Not trying to discuss life on reservations. We just want to know what the gianormous* difference between the use of a Native American images by the University of North Dakota, the Dakota Magic Casino, the Spirit Lake Casino and so on and so on actually is. One use of images is horrific, appauling, hostile, abusive, causes people to have a lower self-image of themselves and the other uses of the image are tributes and honors and no one sees anything wrong with them. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense- and so far no one has explained what exactly that difference is. I propose a new question-Why has that question been ignored and remained unanswered for so long? Everyone would like to see Native American lives improve on and off the Reservations.....what can we do together to make life easier? I think everyone will agree that the problems that people on the Reservations face today were not caused by the University of North Dakota. I'd like to be able to attend games without that feelling of awkwardness just as many other Native sports fans. The Native American fans that I have seen at football and hockey games wearing the Sioux logo on their chests appear to be having a pretty good time cheering our team onto victory. I'm actually a little surprized that an anti-nickname supporter goes to the games. What we have seen in the past is that the anti-nickname crowd does not attend games, and then makes false assumptions on what happens and takes that to be the truth. (I'm talking specifically about a hockey game last year, where the sieve chant- a chant done after one team scores a goal and then taunts the opposing goalie with being a gianormous* hole) was seen by the anti-nickname crowd on highlights of the game and mistaken for a Native American chant. *special thanks to Will Ferrel for the word gianormous, it's one of my favorite words ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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