To begin a journey of a 1000 miles....

[Sioux-cia]

I thought you just had a problem with the name.  You don't like the logo either?

Eh, who cares anymore.  This discussion truely is going nowhere and is becoming rather pointess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Diggler, you forgot . In his reply to your questions, he was opposed to the logo because Bennet is not Sioux, he's not the right Indian. Bennet is Chippewa-Cree, an enemy of the Sioux or as Krack so eloquently called him in another post 'a rabbit choker'. Racism at it's finest but it's ok because it's one Indian discriminating against another Indian. In his references to other American Indians who don't agree with his stance on this board, he has been 'malicious and abusive'. But the NC$$ Executive Committee members and those faculty at UND who are opposed to the Sioux name would support to his right to free speech because as an American Indian he can be as racist as he wants, as long as its only directed at other American Indians.

[KnowtheFacts]

How about the University and the Board of Education actually *read* the Resolutions that many tribes including almost all of the Sioux tribes and almost all of the American Indian Programs that they brag about on this campus have *already written* and respectfully retire the name as a show of "honor" for the people they say they respect and admire so highly. The compromise is simple. UND retires the name, therefore showing our "honor" to the Sioux people. How about instead of going backward, we move forward to a name that we can *all* be proud of? How about teaching our kids about the Sioux people outside of the context of a hockey game? I learned about Sioux culture because I met and talked to people who were Sioux, not because of a logo or a hockey arena exhibition. Maybe that should be the new way of learning about someones culture.

[KnowtheFacts]

GK/KTF:

Since no compromise is possible, how about this idea.  Why don't the tribes under the heading "sioux" stop using the name and once again refer to themselves as before.  From my understanding the sioux name  was given by a rival tribe to the lakota/dakota people.  If this group of people now find this name offensive and abusive, why not start calling yourselves by the lakota/dakota terminology once again.  In this respect you will no longer be directly associated with the university as a people.  yes, I know it is a stupid idea from an ignorant white guy but this is another way of viewing the situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you think it might be easier to change one university logo than to try to change the names and cultural identities of hundreds of thousands of people?

I don't think a Sioux being called Sioux is offensive. I think a Sioux being called a "Fighting Sioux" and being expected to symbolize an entire race because of a stereotype promoted by an Indian-head logo whose image and colors represent ideals for a hockey team and its fans, *is* offensive.

[airmail]

Maintaining political correctness within these threads, nobody has offered up the burning question of what will happen to race relations if the name is indeed changed. Here's my take:

I think it is going to be a sad day for UND, and a sad day for the American Indian people on campus. After the name is stripped from its association with UND, we will undoubtedly see the abusiveness and hostility that Miles Brand talked about. I foresee any progress that has been made in race relations on campus taking a drastic turn for the worse. Hostility, stereotyping, and racial slurs that have been suppressed will now be pushed to the forefront of both the student

[BigGame]

How about the University and the Board of Education actually *read* the Resolutions that many tribes including almost all of the Sioux tribes and almost all of the American Indian Programs that they brag about on this campus have *already written* and respectfully retire the name as a show of "honor" for the people they say they respect and admire so highly.    The compromise is simple.  UND retires the name, therefore showing our "honor" to the Sioux people.  How about instead of going backward, we move forward to a name that we can *all* be proud of?  How about teaching our kids about the Sioux people outside of the context of a hockey game?  I learned about Sioux culture because I met and talked to people who were Sioux, not because of a logo or a hockey arena exhibition.  Maybe that should be the new way of learning about someones culture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But what led you to learn or want to learn about the Sioux people? Something must have peaked your interest, I have an idea but certainly can't speak for your motivation.

[BigGame]

[kfah1]

Maintaining political correctness within these threads, nobody has offered up the burning question of what will happen to race relations if the name is indeed changed.  Here's my take: 

I think it is going to be a sad day for UND, and a sad day for the American Indian people on campus.  After the name is stripped from its association  with UND, we will undoubtedly see the abusiveness and hostility that Miles Brand talked about.  I foresee any progress that has been made in race relations on campus taking a drastic turn for the worse.  Hostility, stereotyping, and racial slurs that have been suppressed will now be pushed to the forefront of both the student

[Diggler]

I don't think a Sioux being called Sioux is offensive.  I think a Sioux being called a "Fighting Sioux" and being expected to symbolize an entire race because of a stereotype promoted by an Indian-head logo whose image and colors represent ideals for a hockey team and its fans, *is* offensive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who expects Sioux to symbolize an entire race? When at hockey games do they say "If you see GrahamKracker walking down the street, he represents every single Sioux!"?

[PCM]

After the name is stripped from its association  with UND, we will undoubtedly see the abusiveness and hostility that Miles Brand talked about.  I foresee any progress that has been made in race relations on campus taking a drastic turn for the worse.  Hostility, stereotyping, and racial slurs that have been suppressed will now be pushed to the forefront of both the student

[airmail]

I won't deny that changing the name woud create some animosity. There will be a few idiots who overreact. But I'd like to think that it wouldn't be anywhere near the level you describe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess what you just stated would be more of the point I was trying to make. "A few idoits who overreact" would be accurate. When I stated that this issue will be "pushed to the forefront of both the student

[The Sicatoka]

My hope is that if the Sioux moniker goes American Indian students will be just as invisible as every other subcategory of student on campus, for example those with Nicaraguan or Norwegian or whatever heritage.

They'll be equal.

Of course, being equal is a two-way street. You may gain; you may lose.

[KnowtheFacts]

[KnowtheFacts]

[PCM]

Are you referring to the idea that maybe the Sioux will cease to exist if UND's logo is changed?  That is ridiculous. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're taking these statements far too literally. Of course the Sioux won't cease to exist if UND changes it's name.

What's far more likely to disappear is desire, motivation and incentive.

[PCM]

My point is that the actions of these idiotic few, will reflect on many when they are brought to the press, campus leaders, administration, etc, and unquestionably cause a strain in any cultural bridges that have been built in the community.  I can't stress enough that it would be a sad event should this happen; though equally sad, I believe it will... at least those few idiots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree completely with you on this.

[kfah1]

[BigGame]

[UND-1]

[7>4]

I agree UND-1. I have repeately asked one simple question of GrahmKracker and Knowthe Facts and other ban supports but have yet to receive an answer. For the last time, please englighten me on the following:

What will changing the UND nickname do to improve the situation at Fort Yates or the current dire state of American Indian culture? If it is the first step in a jouney of 1,000 miles, then please tell me what the second one is.

[bincitysioux]

I would rather GrandForkers know nothing about Sioux culture than pretend they do and end up mocking the very people they say they honor.

I find it hard to believe that you have ever seen or heard of anyone in Grand Forks (other than an occasional belligerent visiting fan), any UND student, alumni, fan, or supporter ever "mock" a Sioux Indian or the Sioux culture. Have you ever been to the Ralph or to the UND campus? Both are shrines to UND Athletics, Academics, and North DAKOTA Native American Indian culture.

[KnowtheFacts]

I find it hard to believe that you have ever seen or heard of anyone in Grand Forks (other than an occasional belligerent visiting fan), any UND student, alumni, fan, or supporter ever "mock" a Sioux Indian or the Sioux culture. Have you ever been to the Ralph or to the UND campus? Both are shrines to UND Athletics, Academics, and North DAKOTA Native American Indian culture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im sorry. I know that you all think you are "honoring" Sioux culture by wearing a caricature on your shirts and green wigs at games. I talk to diffferent people nearly every day who tell me how they have been educated about Sioux culture. They tell me the Sioux were warlike and defeated their enemies. But that is as far as it goes. 1. they are talking about the past 2. they dont have anything to add about the present day culture (except maybe that there is an alcohol problem on the reservations). So Yes, I do think that without intentionally doing so, they are "mocking" the very culture they think they honor. I have seen the ralph and NO it is not a shrine to Native American Culture. It IS a shrine to Ralph Englestad and maybe hockey too. I wouldnt call Siouxveniers or Siouxperdogs "shrine-like". The campus itself is no "shrine" to native american culture either. Have you ever been inside AISS? Until sometime this fall, the American Indian Student Services building is an old rickety house. It is home-y inside, but do you call that a shrine? Even when they move into their new building, you should know that the plans were much greater, but for all the honor this state does for Native Americans, they werent able to raise the funds for the building that was needed. Your shrines are dedicated to the same mythology and stereotypes of a noble warrior savage. But when it comes down to it, the real American Indians on this campus are not treated the way you say. In fact you wont even acknowlege that most of them want the name to change.

[PCM]

But when it comes down to it, the real American Indians on this campus are not treated the way you say.  In fact you wont even acknowlege that most of them want the name to change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One thing that puzzles me is why, when protests of the name are held on campus, don't more American Indian students don't show up for them? As I recall, the protests usually draw fewer than 100 people, and many of them are non-Indians. With 400 American Indian student's on campus, I'd think that a lot more people would show up to protest an issue that's been compared to slavery and women's suffrage. Or are you saying that there aren't many "real American Indians" at UND?

I'm not trying to be flippant here. It's a serious question.

[OldSchool]

[BigGame]

[Ranger]

Lets do it, then Scott M, or are you all talk?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Count me in....