NCAA Name Issue

[EdtheFred]

I always felt the issue should hinge on royalty payments. Pay royalties to the image owner and its ok, its a business deal. Apparently not? Is it true the Seminoles pay royalties? If they do, and the deal is consensual between the owners of the image and the University. I dont see how it can be restricted. Unless of course, the NCAA is asking to approve all member sponsorship agreements, or simply approving for use broad categories of sponsorships and restricting other categories like this one.

[star2city]

In all honesty, I'm undecided. I probably do post a little more info from the nickname opponents, as it seems that many of those that do support the nicknames have not been exposed to the info from those that oppose it (sans this forum, as there is are plenty of posts from the nickname opponents)

Both sides have good points and bad points.  Lots of secondary issues at work, as well, such as:

The whole PC thing- for the most part I really dislike anything PC, but on occassion it produces a better end result

The NCAA- it's not a government entity- the schools voluntarily join the organization and are subject to the rules created by the NCAA

How exactly do the Native Americans feel about it? Not just the Tribal Leaders, not just the results from a telephone poll, or heaven forbid, an online poll, but the collective voice.

On that note, what number consitutes a nickname to be offensive to Native Americans? A simple majority vote by Native Americans,  or does a certain proportion (say, 25-40%) constitute that it's "offensive enough"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good politically correct answer (for this board). But then, you really dislike anything PC, so you must not have liked your answer.

[star2city]

I always felt the issue should hinge on royalty payments.  Pay royalties to the image owner and its ok, its a business deal.  Apparently not?  Is it true the Seminoles pay royalties?  If they do, and the deal is consensual between the owners of the image and the University.  I dont see how it can be restricted.  Unless of course, the NCAA is asking to approve all member sponsorship agreements, or simply approving for use broad categories of sponsorships and restricting other categories like this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JBB:

Florida State does not pay any royalties to any Seminole tribe. (FSU alumni have however, been helpful in business / political interests (i.e. casinos) for the Seminole tribe of Florida).

The Central Michigan Chippewas however, do use portions of royalty income (can't find the reference yet), for scholarships to the Saginaw Chippewa tribe.

CMU/TRIBAL STATEMENTS ON NCAA RECOMMENDATIONS

[star2city]

Here are a few "kind" words currently being spread about UND and Ralph on the I-AA football site by non other than Bisonguy and Tony, the 'curator' of bisonville.com.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/show...38808#post38808

I would respond myself, but I need a cool down period.

[bisonguy]

Here are a few "kind" words currently being spread about UND and Ralph on the I-AA football site by non other than Bisonguy and Tony, the 'curator' of bisonville.com.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/show...38808#post38808

I would respond myself, but I need a cool down period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see how my response could be viewed as "kind" on that thread. I merely stated that tony's post was eloquent, which IMO it was by definition:

eloquent

adj : expressing yourself readily, clearly, effectively;

I then provided a link that provided documented proof on one of the statements that he made:

The tribal councils of just about every Sioux tribe in existence have written letters to UND asking them to stop using the nickname.

using this link-http://www.uiuc.edu/dialogue/und_pdf/Tribal_Statements.pdf which has copies of the letters from the tribal councils written to UND.

I've also been looking for proof that the Sioux tribes gave UND their blessing to use the Sioux name when UND began using it in the 1930's, as claims have been made of that with no proof. If I find that and post it somewhere, does that make me in favor of using Native American nicknames?

[PCM]

I don't see how my response could be viewed as "kind" on that thread. I merely stated that tony's post was eloquent...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was also mostly bovine scatology written by someone who pretends to know what he's talking about when clearly he doesn't. That, in my mind, tends to mask the so-called eloquence of Tony's bile-filled rant.

[PCM]

As I said though, maybe I'm just naive. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you are.

[ScottM]

I'm not sure where the Stream Yellow faithful are getting their "facts", but most of the same issues have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, complete with sources for the 2-3 literate ones in the bunch, including who gave permission to use the Name, including since the 1930s, who opposes the Name, etc. Maybe the Stream Yellow crowd think licking Brand's shoes will somehow force the BSC to suddenly open its rolls again.

That said, I really doubt this will force UND, FSU, Utah, etc. to change their names, so much as their uniforms which should generate more money for their schools for "post-season thirds". Meanwhile, 'SU can plan its next conference-less, pseudo-D1 game in Twisted Twig, Texas and Bendover, Arkansas.

Moreover, I would expect the NC$$ to grant a few more "exceptions" to their list, as they calculate the odds of winning/losing a lawsuit premised on race-based exclusions and whatever the hell "abusive" and "hostile" mean in the context of these restrictions.

[EdtheFred]

thanks Star2City, I was wondering if they did or didnt. I was reading the link you provided. On page six its mentioned again. somebody says the Seminoles do get royalty payments. If they do I would think that would legitimize the use of the image.

[Sioux-cia]

Here are a few "kind" words currently being spread about UND and Ralph on the I-AA football site by non other than Bisonguy and Tony, the 'curator' of bisonville.com.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/show...38808#post38808

I would respond myself, but I need a cool down period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Geeze! Sounds like the guy is still all pi$$ed off over losing the Nickle. And it sounds like he's got a big enough @#$% for the Bison to take shelter.

[PCM]

Here's an article on Florida State's reaction to the NCAA action. This part was especially interesting in light of what was said during the NCAA teleconference on Friday:

While many advocacy groups were celebrating the decision Friday, the Seminole Tribe of Florida joined Florida State in its anger.

"You have non-natives making a decision about native names," said Max Osceola, a member of the Seminole Tribe of Florida's tribal council. "Maybe it took them four years, but it's been a lifetime we've been known as the Seminoles."

The NCAA took into consideration the resolution the Seminole Tribe of Florida passed June 17. But the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma has strongly opposed Florida State's use of the name, and that didn't escape the NCAA's attention either.

"That is great news and wonderful to hear. The whole movement is going in the right direction now," said David Narcomey, a member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma who has been lobbying Florida State for years.

Here's a partial transcript from the NCAA teleconfernce:

St Petersburg Times reporter: "As a followup, specifically to Florida State University, a couple months ago, the Seminole Tribe of Florida endorsed the use of its name, its imagery wholeheartedly. How did you balance that with this measure?"

Walter Harrison, chair of the Executive Committee and president at the University of Hartford: "It

Edited August 7, 2005 by PCM

[HockeyMom]

Diggler,

You're not naive, I have the same feeling that this ban will be shot down in the court system.

Florida State is going to be the big gun that gets it done for all of us.

If I didn't think this was true I'd be freaking out about it, but it's water on a ducks back.

Have I ever lied to you guys before?

[PCM]

Florida State is going to be the big gun that gets it done for all of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Florida State might get it done -- for Florida State. FSU has a big advantage that UND doesn't: the support of the state's Seminole tribe. So maybe a court will come to the rescue of FSU, but UND is not FSU. A court ruling that applies to one university may not apply to another.

The more I think about this and the more I listen to the condescending, sanctimonious babbling of the NCAA representatives, the more convinced I become that the NCAA has made a strategic error.

The NCAA, the Mike McFeelys of the media, liberal academics and the name-change advocates hold a fundamental belief that is fundamentally wrong. They think most of America agrees with them. The fact it is, the public and most American Indians are against what the NCAA is trying to do. They see the issue as political correctness gone wild. They think it's a complete waste of time.

One thing I guarantee that will happen as a result of this is that some powerful members of Congress will be contacted by influential constituents in the states affected by the NCAA's ruling. There will be politicians from both parties who jump on the bandwagon to condemn the NCAA's attempt at censorship.

And ask yourself this: Do you know anyone who actually likes the NCAA? There are millions of sports fans like this guy across the country who will happily rip on the NCAA for this move. The organization is a favorite target, and that target just got bigger.

One false notion that's often repeated (McFeely did it again today) is that Ralph Englestad was the only person keeping UND from changing the name. But that's never been true.

The fact is, most UND alumni support keeping the name, as do most of UND's staff (not just faculty, staff). The State Board of Higher Education said the name must stay. A resolution introduced in the state legislature several years ago calling for UND to drop the Sioux name never made it out of committee. Therefore, the political support within the state is broad and deep.

There are thousands of people in North Dakota and around the country who support UND's use of the Fighting Sioux name. They represent a large majority. By publicly stating their opinions and letting their elected representatives know how they feel, they can have a significant impact on the debate. It's not just about Ralph. It never was.

Shortly after Ralph died, I made a post (I can't remember if it was here or on USCHO) saying that it was up to us to carry on the fight to keep the Sioux name. That's never been more true than it is today.

Wishful thinking isn't going to get it done. Hoping that some other school is going to be UND's knight in shining armor won't do it, either. Nor is the NCAA likely to reverse itself without pressure being brought to bear. So do what you can. Don't be afraid to express your opinion or to let your elected officials know how you feel. That's what's going to make a difference.

[SiouxMeNow]

Have you read any of McFeely's columns about NDSU athletics? He's typically very critical of NDSU, and is about as far away from having his nose up the Bison backsides as one can be.

He's paid to be controversial and get people talking. He's obviously earning his paycheck with this column.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah - thanks for that HUGE INSIGHT!! He's a thorn in the side of everyone and OF COURSE likes to stick it to whoever for whatever for EXACTLY the reason you state...."he gets people talking!"

He's what's known in the business as a professional GADFLY - someone (most likely a real loser in real life) who's sold his journalistic soul with the sole aim of pissing people off. Everyone (on both sides) gets all up in arms about his columns on any number of topics...You threaten to "call the paper and pull your subscription/advertising/support" but NO ONE really does it and all you suckers can't wait to see what he writes next.

Here's a remedy...Don't email him with you opposition to his opinion...he only laughs and plots his next crap piece. You best bet would be to e-mail his editor and tell him you think McWeasly is really losing his touch...writing controversial pieces just for their flame value. You might suggest a real JOURNALIST (even a sudo-one - looking for a job PCM? ) could present a...GASP! ...objective opinion piece without all the lame inflammatory rhetoric. I doubt the morons in charge of the FOOL'EM would listen...all they want to do is sell papers - integrity for them went out the window YEARS AGO but it might be worth a shot! OR simply don't read what he writes or buy their paper...

[SiouxMeNow]

I also find it HIGHLY IRONIC the NCAA is dealing with PERCEIVED discrimination with.....DISCRIMINATION!!!? ? (sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me)

[SiouxMeNow]

...okay...last time tonight I PROMISE! (i'm really agitated if you guys didn't already guess that)...does anyone (including the NCAA) think that if UND was forced to change its name tomorrow - Sioux Jerseys wouldn't be showing up at games until they physically DISINTEGRATED in 30 years or so??? OR people still wouldn't scream at the top of their lungs..."Home of the SIOUX!!!" at the end of the national anthem?

You can FORCE change at the institution...but you can't change people! And I'll be wearing whatever I have and screaming whatever I want until they pry my cold dead body out of one of the seats at the Ralph!

(saturdays rant OVER...rack me OOT!*)

*tribute to YOOPER

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Dear NCAA,

Why is "Fighting Sioux" offensive, but "Fighting Irish" is not?

Oh, and since you're in the bending over mood...I'm offended by the BCS...get rid of it...

Thank you,

People Without Bunched Panties

[BostonSiouxFan]

MinnesotaNorthStar you beat me to my point. Why wasn't Notre Dame on the list of "offensive" nicknames. Not only that, but unlike most of the teams on the list, Notre Dame uses not only the nickname, but a mascot as well.

Notre Dame uses an ethnic group for a nickname, including a caricature of a surly looking Irishman. I'm also part French, and several of my people from the old country settled in Louisiana when they came to this country, where the University of Louisiana-Lafayette boasts the Ragin' Cajuns nickname (can an entire ethnic group possibly be ragin').

I for one fail to see how the nicknames (and mascot in one case) of these institutions is any less offensive than Native American nicknames used in the same way. Perhaps if I were to start a campaign to hassle the administration in South Bend and Lafayette I could get them to drop those names, as I imagine I can't possibly be the only person in this country of French-Irish extraction that lies awake nights concerned about this blatant attempt to belittle my heritage. Somehow, I suspect such a movement would fail before it ever got started.

For those of you reading this post and disagreeing, I ask that before you simply dismiss my query and attack me verbally, please explain the difference to me. I respect your right to your views, and would be extremely interested in any thoughts you may have regarding how these schools were omitted from this list.

[sprig]

Contact:

Senator Dorgon

Senator Conrad

Congressman Pomeroy

[Diggler]

Florida State might get it done -- for Florida State. FSU has a big advantage that UND doesn't: the support of the state's Seminole tribe. So maybe a court will come to the rescue of FSU, but UND is not FSU. A court ruling that applies to one university may not apply to another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think it will go all the way through a court battle. Once FSU shows they are serious, the NCAA will grant FSU an exeption and that will open the door for schools like UND, Illinios and Utah to also apply for an exemption. UND will bring up many positives of the name and the programs it has supporting Native Americans and they will also get an exemption. Schools will be grandfathered in like they are in many NCAA rulings and this legislation will be reworded so that schools can not change their nickname to a Indian one and host tournaments.

You are right that UND can't just sit on it's butt and depend on FSU though.

For those of us who don't live in North Dakota, can we or should we still contact Pomeroy, Conrad, Dorgan or our representatives. It would seem to be more prudent to contact the ND representatives, but I don't know.

[southpaw]

I don't think it will go all the way through a court battle. Once FSU shows they are serious, the NCAA will grant FSU an exeption and that will open the door for schools like UND, Illinios and Utah to also apply for an exemption. UND will bring up many positives of the name and the programs it has supporting Native Americans and they will also get an exemption. Schools will be grandfathered in like they are in many NCAA rulings and this legislation will be reworded so that schools can not change their nickname to a Indian one and host tournaments.

You are right that UND can't just sit on it's butt and depend on FSU though.

For those of us who don't live in North Dakota, can we or should we still contact Pomeroy, Conrad, Dorgan or our representatives. It would seem to be more prudent to contact the ND representatives, but I don't know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say contact your own reps. There's going to be a lot of support of the name sent to Dorgan, Pomeroy, Conrad...a few more people isn't going to hurt it. But if you get reps from outside of the states affected, it may have some more punch in congress and they may be able to do something about it. Especially considering there is a monopoly case going on right now about the NCAA.

[PCM]

Here are some more reactions to the NCAA's decision:

[url=http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/colleges/12321779.htm]Don

[PCM]

I don't think it will go all the way through a court battle.  Once FSU shows they are serious, the NCAA will grant FSU an exeption and that will open the door for schools like UND, Illinios and Utah to also apply for an exemption.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If they do that, then there was absolutely no point in the NCAA doing what it did. Why would they grant exemptions to the schools that they consider the worst offenders? And believe me, UND is one school that they don't want to let get away, given its dealings with Ralph Engelstad.

UND will bring up many positives of the name and the programs it has supporting Native Americans and they will also get an exemption.  Schools will be grandfathered in like they are in many NCAA rulings and this legislation will be reworded so that schools can not change their nickname to a Indian one and host tournaments.

I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, Myles Brand and Walter Harrison fully believe that they have come up with a way to coerce the offending schools in doing what the NCAA wants them to do, which is drop the names completely.

[GCWaters]

Dear NCAA,

Why is "Fighting Sioux" offensive, but "Fighting Irish" is not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe because Notre Dame was founded by Irish Catholics?

[Diggler]

If they do that, then there was absolutely no point in the NCAA doing what it did. Why would they grant exemptions to the schools that they consider the worst offenders? And believe me, UND is one school that they don't want to let get away, given its dealings with Ralph Engelstad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do they do many things and then backtrack on their stance? They are the NCAA and a bunch of morons.

Maybe because Notre Dame was founded by Irish Catholics?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? As far as the nickname, look at the fourth paragraph. Again, why is Fighting Irish different from Fighting Sioux?