Division I

[UND Fan]

What is going on right now at UND is different than in the past. We are finally taking a close look and seriously analyzing the ramifications of moving to DI. There is a sense of urgency in discussions that hasn't been there in the past!

We all know the pros and cons of going DI. I believe the cost of DI is the No. 1 challenge. Over and above the actual increase in scholarship $ and travel (which are major), we need to all understand that it is much more expensive to bring kids into Grand Forks on recuriting trips than most anywhere in the country. This is primarily because it is all air travel (which is expensive) - there aren't all that many DI prospects within driving distance, etc. Plus, we usually need to bring in more kids than average because many decide to go elsewhere due to proximity to home, better climate, etc. These comments probably do not apply to FB as much as our other sports. Due to the success of our FB program, kids are more likely to want to be part of the program.

I DO NOT WANT TO SEE RESPONSES LIKE "IF NDSU CAN DO IT, WHY CAN'T WE". This discussion has nothing to do with NDSU and whether they can do it or not - let's simply talk about whether UND can pull it off. The questions:

If you are currently a Fighting Sioux Club member, would you increase your annual contribution by 25% (or any appreciable amount) to assist with the additional costs?

If you are currently not a FSC member, would you join and begin annual contributions to assist with these costs?

If you are a UND student, would you agree to higher fees ($50 per semester, for instance) to assist with these costs?

Do you think that attendance at UND athletic events can increase enough to assist with these costs? Remember that we might not be overly successful in basketball, etc.

Last question, if 3-4 years from now, UND was not doing well in most of the major sports (I personally think we would do very well in FB, be mediocre at best in most others), would you continue to write checks each year at the same or higher amounts (remember that tuition and travel costs, etc. will continue to increase each year)?

Please think about these questions and answer them truthfully. All UND posters truly love the Sioux but unless hundreds of fans/boosters like us step up with more $, a successful step up to DI would be very difficult!

[SiouxMeNow]

The x factor for UND is the Hockey program and REA...which other "nameless" institutions do not have to worry about. DI Hockey is king at UND, as it should and will forever be, but right there is a big chunk of the athletic budget - moreso than ever with the addition of Womens Hockey (sorry, a money loser). REA is squeezing FSC members for more money every year to support those programs and REA is also trying to pay for the Betty -- it's going to be VERY TOUGH to raise an ADDITIONAL 2-3+ Million to support the move to DI for the other sports when supporters feel they're being tapped out right now. Are you prepared to divert resources from the mens hockey program for the "improvement" of all sports at UND? That might be the real question?

That being said, the BSC is giving UND a unique opportunity to get in to a DI conference - one of the toughest parts of the transitition for any school moving up! It's not something we should sneeze at! Roger told me today they've been talking to schools like Maine (a school with hockey and OTHER DI sports) to see how they're doing it in a "less than metropolitan" atmosphere) -- I think that's VERY interesting...

[bigmrg74]

Exactly there SiouxMeNow. The paint is barely dry on the Betty, much less have the Ralph or the Alerus all paided off for by now. Your Alumni are pretty well tapped for the most part.

[SiouxMeNow]

Exactly there SiouxMeNow.  The paint is barely dry on the Betty, much less have the Ralph or the Alerus all paided off for by now.  Your Alumni are pretty well tapped for the most part.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the hockey arena is all bought and payed for (thanks Ralph! - RIP) and the Alerus bill is covered by a city sales tax (non-university related). REA added on the Betty so that does still have to be payed for but if you consider there's about 8 million to cover on a total of 200 million dollars worth of facilities - that's not bad...wish my home mortgage was working out like that The Alums aren't paying, (for the most part), for the facilities but for the privilege of going to games there.

[IowaBison]

but they do have to cover operating maintanence costs, which in the case of the Ralph can't be dirt cheap

best of luck with the decision, this big sky situation is likely the best opportunity UND or any other school from the Upper Great Plains or Northwestern US has to move from D2 to D1 in the next ten years.

[The Sicatoka]

they've been talking to schools like Maine (a school with hockey and OTHER DI sports) to see how they're doing it in a "less than metropolitan" atmosphere) --  I think that's VERY interesting...

Maine is the DI-AA model UND should be looking at:

- geographically isolated (nearest DI is 4 hours away)

- powerhouse DI hockey (1993, 1999 National Champions)

- solid football program (DI-AA quarterfinalist twice since 2000)

[PCM]

but they do have to cover operating maintanence costs, which in the case of the Ralph can't be dirt cheap

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the REA operate as a commercial venture because it has to cover its operating costs before UND can accept ownership of the building?

[The Sicatoka]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the REA operate as a commercial venture because it has to cover its operating costs before UND can accept ownership of the building?

You are correct, PCM. REA operates to cover its own expenses first (per state law) and then arena profits are turned over, by contract, to UND Athletics. Alternatively, REA is still loosely affiliated with the Engelstad Family Trust which would cover any red ink for REA if, if, it were to occur.

[jimdahl]

but they do have to cover operating maintanence costs, which in the case of the Ralph can't be dirt cheap

According to the report I cited in this thread, it costs about $1m/year to run REA. As is also noted there, the increase in revenue to the athletic department from REA is about $1.6m (not counting the increase in Fighting Sioux club membership).

[The Sicatoka]

A Herald article on the transfer.

A quote from a past Dakota Student article on the transfer:

In addition, the arena

[IowaBison]

thanks for the information about operating/revenue from the REA

do you guys have any idea how much $$$ is in the REA trust fund?

[The Sicatoka]

thanks for the information about operating/revenue from the REA

do you guys have any idea how much $$$ is in the REA trust fund?

There's no such thing as an "REA trust fund" I believe.

There is however the Ralph and Betty Engelstad Family Trust which most assume contains nearly all of their assets. (The Engelstad's net worth at the time of Mr. Engelstad's passing was estimated by various sources between $600 MM and $1200 MM.)

[legend334]

REA has a fund set aside to pay for any major work to be done that is unforseen, that amount is going up to 2 million which isnt there yet...and according to the REA accountants...UND athletics has received 61,000 in 3 years from REA to the athletic dept. interesting...

[Cratter]

How does a university operate when it operates in the Red? If I recall Montana operated last year in the red after advancing to the Final 64 and won the championship in football.

[bisonguy]

How does a university operate when it operates in the Red?  If I recall Montana operated last year in the red after advancing to the Final 64 and won the championship in football.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why not ask Roger Thomas how over $400k of red ink worked out last year?

The 2003/2004 OPE stats are up-http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.asp

[UND Fan]

What is going on right now at UND is different than in the past.  We are finally taking a close look and seriously analyzing the ramifications of moving to DI.  There is a sense of urgency in discussions that hasn't been there in the past!

We all know the pros and cons of going DI.  I believe the cost of DI is the No. 1 challenge.  Over and above the actual increase in scholarship $ and travel (which are major), we need to all understand that it is much more expensive to bring kids into Grand Forks on recuriting trips than most anywhere in the country.  This is primarily because it is all air travel (which is expensive) - there aren't all that many DI prospects within driving distance, etc.  Plus, we usually need to bring in more kids than average because many decide to go elsewhere due to proximity to home, better climate, etc.  These comments probably do not apply to FB as much as our other sports.  Due to the success of our FB program, kids are more likely to want to be part of the program.

I DO NOT WANT TO SEE RESPONSES LIKE "IF NDSU CAN DO IT, WHY CAN'T WE".  This discussion has nothing to do with NDSU and whether they can do it or not - let's simply talk about whether UND can pull it off.  The questions:

If you are currently a Fighting Sioux Club member, would you increase your annual contribution by 25% (or any appreciable amount) to assist with the additional costs?

If you are currently not a FSC member, would you join and begin annual contributions to assist with these costs?

If you are a UND student, would you agree to higher fees ($50 per semester, for instance) to assist with these costs?

Do you think that attendance at UND athletic events can increase enough to assist with these costs?  Remember that we might not be overly successful in basketball, etc. 

Last question, if 3-4 years from now, UND was not doing well in most of the major sports (I personally think we would do very well in FB, be mediocre at best in most others), would you continue to write checks each year at the same or higher amounts (remember that tuition and travel costs, etc. will continue to increase each year)?

Please think about these questions and answer them truthfully.  All UND posters truly love the Sioux but unless hundreds of fans/boosters like us step up with more $, a successful step up to DI would be very difficult!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We all understand that the primary issue with going DI is money. It is obvious that we have a lot of great Sioux fans on this site. I am curious whether fans such as us will start contributing (if you aren't) or will contribute more (if you already are). I asked the above question a few days ago - didn't really get any responses.

In asking the question, it is probably appropriate that I answer it before I expect others to do so. I am currently in the Director's Club category of the Fighting Sioux Club. If we go DI (I still am not sure it is the right thing to do), I will find a way to contribute a bit more each year.

How about you guys?

[timbo]

I have a question for sioux fans how can some of you say you are in a better financial postion then ndsu when according to the numbers from 03-mid04 you are 400,000 in the red and ndsu is 40,000 in the red. i am just wondering because i have heard that alot not so much on here but in talking to sioux fans face to face

[aff]

I have a question for sioux fans how can some of you say you are in a better financial postion then ndsu when according to the numbers from 03-mid04 you are 400,000 in the red and ndsu is 40,000 in the red. i am just wondering because i have heard that  alot not so much on here but in talking to sioux fans face to face

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HAHA, funny how nobody wants to address this question. I would also ask about how funding womens hockey is going. Don't worry Sioux Fans, just keep going on other forums and saying how you are more prepared for the transition though. If you say it enough maybe it will come true.

[dakotadan]

I have never once said that UND is in a better financial situation to go DI than NDSU as well as most people on this site have never said that. It has been made known to everyone that MONEY is the biggest hurdle to UND going to DI. UND has stated this from day one. The only thing I can think of that people may have said is that NDSU won't have the money to renovate the BSA for quite some time because they will be too busy trying to raise money just to cover the scholarships. If UND were to go DI we would not have to worry about money for facilities. That does not mean we are in better shape financially. If someone has said things to you otherwise take it up with them personally. BTW, women's hockey is going fine.

[aff]

I have never once said that UND is in a better financial situation to go DI than NDSU as well as most people on this site have never said that. It has been made known to everyone that MONEY is the biggest hurdle to UND going to DI. UND has stated this from day one. The only thing I can think of that people may have said is that NDSU won't have the money to renovate the BSA for quite some time because they will be too busy trying to raise money just to cover the scholarships. If UND were to go DI we would not have to worry about money for facilities. That does not mean we are in better shape financially. If someone has said things to you otherwise take it up with them personally. BTW, women's hockey is going fine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure that women's hockey is fine, I was just wondering if that was fully funded yet? Last I heard it wasn't. If thats true you guys have to admit you have a Sh*t load of financial problems to solve if your going to be D-I.

Also, dakotaboy, if your representitive of sioux fans about the funding issue for D-I (Saying that you think its your major hurdle) it sure is funny how the thread for financial info. on the move is one page, and the thread on conferences and how UND would compete is 11 pages. To an outside of observer it looks alot like you guys aren't worried about the financial part, despite not having a Carr report, or anyway that I can think of to increase your revenue.

[Smoggy]

I'm sure that women's hockey is fine, I was just wondering if that was fully funded yet? Last I heard it wasn't. If thats true you guys have to admit you have a Sh*t load of financial problems to solve if your going to be D-I.

Also, dakotaboy, if your representitive of sioux fans about the funding issue for D-I (Saying that you think its your major hurdle) it sure is funny how the thread for financial info. on the move is one page, and the thread on conferences and how UND would compete is 11 pages. To an outside of observer it looks alot like you guys aren't worried about the financial part, despite not having a Carr report, or anyway that I can think of to increase your revenue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What special things did NDSU do to raise money. More donations, beg the students for more fees, and what else? I would think UND would do the same.

We don't need the Carr report. We have yours.

Seriously, though, Dakotaboy is right on track about facilities. The one main advantage that UND has over NDSU is in facilities. How much are you guys talking to renovate various buildings? I think that far outweighs the cost of bringing women's hockey up to fully funded (I think it is on like a five year plan). Are your DI sports fully funded yet? Basically, we'll end up with the same costs (more or less) for upgrading the main sports.

Oh and conference talk is quite interesting. Finances really aren't, and most of us don't know the finances behind things. Like how the REA makes so much money, but UND doesn't seem to get it.

[IowaBison]

if you want membership in the big sky you'll also have to fully fund football, that's an additional 27 scholarships just for men and an equivalent number for women. That's $500,000 right there.

[The Sicatoka]

When womens hockey was brought on-line it was planned to add 3 scholarships per year to the maximum of 18. They are on course with that plan. And I believe they are taking that course because they are endowed scholarships.

If NDSU has done this so well, why hasn't the media done an open records request of their books and shown the State what a good job they are doing? It'd be a great chance to shine and prove Dr. Kupchella's fiscal concerns misplaced.

The last NDSU Athletics budget report in the media was that NDSU started the year fiscal year ~$1,000,000.00 in the red. Until a new report comes out that's all we know.

[bisonguy]

When womens hockey was brought on-line it was planned to add 3 scholarships per year to the maximum of 18. They are on course with that plan. And I believe they are taking that course because they are endowed scholarships.

If NDSU has done this so well, why hasn't the media done an open records request of their books and shown the State what a good job they are doing? It'd be a great chance to shine and prove Dr. Kupchella's fiscal concerns misplaced.

The last NDSU Athletics budget report in the media was that NDSU started the year fiscal year ~$1,000,000.00 in the red. Until a new report comes out that's all we know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

~900k with the extra football game.

[The Sicatoka]

I'll wait for the numbers without the "~".