Fargo may build 8000 seat rink

[jloos]

$75M complex in works

By Mary Jo Almquist, Andrea Domaskin and Gerry Gilmour,The Forum

Published Wednesday, October 20, 2004

A local developer will soon turn to Fargo taxpayers and city leaders to help pay for a $75 million multipurpose arena and downtown office complex, city officials said Tuesday.

As proposed, the project would encompass the block bound by First Avenue North, NP Avenue, Broadway and Roberts Street. The arena would be used for hockey, but the connected building would include offices, condominiums and retail space, according to CityScapes Development President Mike Bullinger.

Although Bullinger confirmed Tuesday that his development company is behind the planning of the multiuse complex, he said costs and elevations are not complete.

Details, including square footage and proposed private and public funding sources, will be released in about a month, he said.

But preliminary plans already have been presented to top officials at City Hall.

City commissioners Thomas Lane, Mike Williams, Linda Coates and Mayor Bruce Furness said they have seen drawings and have met with CityScapes representatives about the plan. The idea has been pitched as a multiuse arena that would seat up to 8,000, they say.

Commissioner John Cosgriff was not in his office Tuesday and couldn't be reached for comment.

The project would be paid for through a combination of sources, including a possible tax-increment financing district and a city sales tax, Williams said.

The sales tax would need to be approved by 60 percent of Fargo voters and would be handled either through a special election or during city elections in June 2006, he said.

A tax-increment financing district, commonly called a TIF, needs City Commission approval.

With a TIF, the city would either pay for upfront demolition and relocation costs of existing buildings and businesses or would simply grant a tax exemption on the property for a period of time.

The increased tax revenue that would come from redevelopment would pay for the investment over time.

Williams said the proposal he saw was "impressive," though he has some reservations.

While downtown could use a "traffic generator," Williams said he doesn't know if a hockey arena is the answer.

No specific tenants have been identified for the space, but Bullinger said it "will be for the kids of Fargo-Moorhead."

He said the hockey aspect of this proposed arena was not designed for North Dakota State University, even though the university was a central character the last time a downtown hockey arena was proposed.

Still, NDSU Athletic Director Gene Taylor said university officials were informed of the proposed project.

"They showed it to us but we're not going to add hockey anytime soon," Taylor said.

It appears NDSU would also not play basketball in the new arena. Taylor compared it to the University of North Dakota playing basketball in Ralph Engelstad Arena, which is mainly an ice venue.

Taylor said the Bison Sports Arena on campus already seats at least 6,500 and that if the school needs a bigger arena, it would go to the Fargodome.

City commissioners said they've also heard talk about Fargo wooing a semi-professional hockey team, but nothing has been settled.

A pair of United States Hockey League teams each lasted less than five years in the Fargo-Moorhead area. The F-M Ice Sharks played at the Fargo Coliseum from 1996 to 2000. The Ice Sharks finished last in their division during their final season and averaged 1,214 fans.

At the time of the Ice Sharks' departure, former team President Wayne Gadberry said low attendance was partly due to an arena that wasn't fan-friendly.

The Fargo-Moorhead Bears played at the Moorhead Sports Center in 1995-96 and disbanded at the end of the regular season. The Bears made the playoffs, but were ousted from the league because of insufficient funds.

If USHL hockey is what people want, that could be put in the Fargodome for about $5 million, Williams said.

City officials describe the proposed development as being several stories tall and possibly including parking.

Coates said the development, on paper, is quite large. "It has an imposing look," she said.

Commissioners said the prospect of relocating a new Fargo City Hall into the structure also was suggested as a possibility during meetings with CityScapes.

But Furness said he's not sure yet what role the city would play in the development project, if at all.

Furness already has suggested he wants to go to voters, possibly in 2006, with a proposed extension of the Fargodome sales tax. The $250 million over 25 years the tax is expected to generate would pay for long-term water and wastewater improvements.

The CityScapes project could be vying for that same money, and Furness said that would be one of his concerns.

Furness wouldn't comment further on specific details of the project.

If approved, a new multipurpose arena would be in addition to the Fargodome and the Civic Center, both of which host a variety of sports and entertainment events.

Fargodome General Manager Rob Sobolik said any facility that would be added, regardless of its seating capacity, would be competition for the dome.

Sobolik said he's only heard rumblings about the CityScapes proposal and hasn't had a sit-down meeting with the development company.

Incidentally, former Fargodome General Manager Paul Johnson is now working with CityScapes on the arena project. Commissioners said they aren't sure what Johnson's role would be other than to help drum up community support for the downtown proposal.

Johnson was fired from the Fargodome in May after fallout from a failed Missy Elliott concert. Sobolik, who was the assistant general manager, replaced him.

Erv Inniger, a Fargo Dome Authority member and assistant NDSU athletic director, said he would be concerned if the proposed arena planned to host concerts.

"You don't want to get into a situation where you're competing for concerts," similar to what the Ralph Engelstad Arena and Alerus Center are doing in Grand Forks, he said.

Inniger said CityScapes contacted him about the project two months ago. "just to let us know what was going on."

"The plans I saw were pretty early stage, but they were pretty powerful plans," he said.

Commissioners said they're concerned a downtown block would need to be razed before construction could begin there.

One building standing in the way is the Fargo Fire Department. But Williams said this would probably be less of a concern than some of the other historic buildings on the block.

The proposed arena development would be kitty-corner from the recently refurbished former Northern School Supply building, which was saved from the wrecking ball and transformed into NDSU Downtown.

Lane said the city would need to consider the historic value of the buildings in question and whether the arena project would justify tearing them down.

Business owners on and near that block have mixed opinions about the project. Many say they've heard proposals are in the works for the site, though they haven't been directly contacted by CityScapes.

Shannon O'Shaughnessy, who with her brother owns The Sports Bar at 619 NP Ave., said it "would take a lot of money" to convince her to move.

"I love our location," O'Shaughnessy said.

Paul Dobbins, owner of the restaurant PD's on First, said he had been contacted, though project details and a financial package were not discussed. PD's opened a year ago at 612 1st Ave. N. Dobbins said he has a 15-year lease in the building, one of several in the area owned by Nachhattar Gill.

Gill declined to comment Tuesday.

Wendy Huschka, manager of Fantasy's lingerie store, wouldn't be surprised to see the start of negotiations to relocate her business from 631 NP Ave.

"We've heard rumors, but we don't have anything to comment on so far," Huschka said.

Huschka and other downtown business managers and owners are curious.

"Downtown needs something," said Jim Deardorff, who owns the Vinyl Connection on First Avenue North across the street from the former Fargo Cinema Grill, which would be razed as part of the project.

For the past year, Deardorff has been looking across the street at a CityScapes sign that advertises a new development coming in 2005.

Deardorff said he has been waiting for something to happen downtown since his business moved to 639 1st Ave. N. about 10 years ago.

"I've been keeping my ear to the ground," he said. "Obviously I've gotten mold on my ear because nothing ever happens."

Forum reporters Heath Hotzler, Jeff Kolpack and Mike Nowatzki contributed to this report

[The Sicatoka]

NDSU saying they'd still play in the BSA or at the Fargodome and the Fargo mayor taking this position

Furness already has suggested he wants to go to voters, possibly in 2006, with a proposed extension of the Fargodome sales tax. The $250 million over 25 years the tax is expected to generate would pay for long-term water and wastewater improvements.

The ... project could be vying for that same (tax) money, and Furness said that would be one of his concerns.

Furness wouldn't comment further on specific details of the project.

don't seem to initially bode well for the plan.

Also, this

The sales tax would need to be approved by 60 percent of Fargo voters ...

doesn't have a good track record for arenas in Fargo lately (April 2000 vote: 63% against).

It says they'd have to take down the current downtown fire station. Do they include the cost of building a new fire station in the $75 MM to do the project or would Fargo taxpayers have to pick that up in addition to the sales tax?

But hey, Fargo really could use a good rink and retire that nightmare (Fargo Coliseum) where the FM Jets play. But why mention the USHL when they have an NAHL team now?

Lots of questions.

[ScottM]

Sounds about as realistic as razing West Acres and putting in a golf course.

I agree that a city of Fargo's size could use a better ice arena, but this thing has more weight in its ass than J-Lo.

[#1siouxfan22]

I dont see this happening since no team could support the rink unless we get a ushl team and if we do it wouldnt last. It would be kinda cool to see the bison get d1 hockey but i hight doubt that.

[star2city]

It would be a great addition to downtown Fargo if this was built, especially if offices, condos, and retail are included. If it comes down to a vote on a sales tax, seems highly unlikely that it would get approval. Interesting that NDSU officials have expressed little interest in it, in spite of the proposed location conveniently next to their downtown campus and the way it could resolve nagging facility and capital fundraising issues. With a downtown arena, the BSA could be converted solely to a practice facilities, with the new arena for the actual BB and, eventually, hockey games. Perhaps politically, as NDSU learned in the last arena vote, it is best for NDSU to feign disinterest while cheering on behind the scenes, as taxpayers would even more heavily object if they viewed this as a ploy to finance NDSU

[ethanm]

If this does get built (and I seriously doubt it), they would have to build a parking ramp. I don't think the proponents of the last arena effort fooled anyone with the claim about downtown parking being equal to the Fargodome. There may be the same number of spots, but most of the ones downtown are already used without an event unlike the dome's lot. I also don't see NDSU even considering a D-I hockey team. They won't have the money to fund it (and the women's team that would likely be added) with their D-I move. If they do try the hockey push again, maybe they'll bring back that lame commercial promoting the chance to see MN, BC, and Notre Dame (I guess they must have put a football guy in charge of that ad because who really wants to see the Fighting Irish in hockey?).

I think this is an interesting quote from the Bison AD.

Taylor said the Bison Sports Arena on campus already seats at least 6,500 and that if the school needs a bigger arena, it would go to the Fargodome.

He mentions playing in the Fargodome for a bigger arena, but what about better. I don't see how NDSU can be competitive at the D-I level in the BSA. There appears to be only speculation about the plans to upgrade the basketball facilities. You could renovate the BSA but would likely sacrifice intramural space. At least NDSU has their thinking right about the possibility of playing bball in the proposed arena, I don't think you'd have the same atmosphere with it being off campus. Plus, those students that would go downtown would probably get detoured to one of the bars and never make it to the game.

[jloos]

It would be a great addition to downtown Fargo if this was built, especially if offices, condos, and retail are included. If it comes down to a vote on a sales tax, seems highly unlikely that it would get approval.  Interesting that NDSU officials have expressed little interest in it, in spite of the proposed location conveniently next to their downtown campus and the way it could resolve nagging facility and capital fundraising issues.  With a downtown arena, the BSA could be converted solely to a practice facilities, with the new arena for the actual BB and, eventually, hockey games.  Perhaps politically, as NDSU learned in the last arena vote, it is best for NDSU to feign disinterest while cheering on behind the scenes, as taxpayers would even more heavily object if they viewed this as a ploy to finance NDSU

[The Sicatoka]

I also agree that in the end this will never happen.

[Goon]

Sounds about as realistic as razing West Acres and putting in a golf course. 

I agree that a city of Fargo's size could use a better ice arena, but this thing has more weight in its ass than J-Lo.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that is a great Idea.

[Cratter]

The question remains "why?" Practice facility? HS games? USHL games? 8,000 yeah right. Build it hoping to attract a minor league team? Sounds like a quite a big risk.

I think star2city is on to something.

[SiouxMeNow]

The question remains "why?"

[star2city]

IMO, the Mike McFeely column today comes close to giving the real scoop on the proposed downtown arena: http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm...ist=MikeMcFeely

First his McFeelings:

Seventy-five million clams for a junior hockey team? Don't insult us, please.

And speaking of insults, don't tell us it's "for the kids." Fargo youth hockey is in need of ice sheets to accommodate hordes of 9- and 10-year-olds, not 8,000-seat arenas with -- we presume -- luxury suites.

Fargo needs (again, we use that word knowing it's a verbiage minefield) a top-notch hoops venue. The Fargodome is too big, the Civic Auditorium too small and the Bison Sports Arena too crummy.

and then confirmation that NDSU is "mildly" interested:

Bison athletic director Gene Taylor said that while the university would prefer a new basketball arena to be on-campus near the dome, it would not turn up its nose at a downtown facility built with a private/public partnership.

"As long as we can have a priority similar to the one we have at the dome," Taylor said.

That means NDSU would want to be treated as the building's main tenant, picking and choosing the dates it wants.

A new arena could be crucial toward the Bison's success in Division I.

Just to review NDSU’s DI needs:

1. Money - to fund scholarships

2. Money - to fund travel and more staff

3. Money - to build practice facilities

4. Money - to revamp the BSA into something respectable (if that’s possible)

5. BB facility - to bring in money for #’s 1, 2, & 3

6. Conference affiliation - partially dependent on #’s 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Hmm, doesn't take a genius to see that a new arena is exactly what NDSU needs. If I was a Fargo voter, I would support downtown development, but I'm not sure the Trojan Horse manner in which the arena has been proposed would be very palatable.

[The Sicatoka]

From here:

Bullinger did say on WDAY Radio's Hot Talk program that at least $35 million of the project would be privately funded. City leaders say a sales tax and tax increment financing district are under consideration for the public portion of the project.

$75 MM project, $35 MM privately, so $40 MM publicly.

Gee, $40 MM publicly financed for an 8000 seat arena in Fargo for hockey, er, basketball, I mean hockey, downtown, no, near campus, no, downtown.

Is there a echo back to April of 2000?

My prediction of what is next:

- "We can't tear down those historic buildings."

- "Maybe we have to put it closer to Fargodome (aka NDSU campus)."

Takers?

[IowaBison]

I do not believe that NDSU is actively interested in this proposal. It's coming from real estate developers who will finance the $40 million portion. In order to make downtown more exciting and their investment potentially more profitable they added the arena idea.

I think the Trojan Horse idea is a little far fetched. The hockey proposal in 2000 was absolutely crushed, I don't think NDSU will strongly support any other ballot initiatives for a couple of years.

[#1siouxfan22]

In todays Forum there was an article on how the arena should be for basketball only.

[IowaBison]

that was McFeeley and it was strictly wishful thinking

[The Sicatoka]

The Fargodome is too big ...

How do they pull off playing basketball in the Carrier Dome at Syracuse if domed football stadiums are too big?

How do they pull off the "Gate City Theatre" in the Fargodome if it's too big?

I'd think Taylor would love to play BB in Fargodome with the goal of 10000 fans per home game.

[IowaBison]

And he's made comments that agree with your thought Sicatoka. The problem is that you need to fill up the Dome to give it a decent basketball atmosphere and that probably isn't going to happen. We have no where near the fan interest to make it work.

Pumping ten million dollars into the BSA is probably the best plan for the next ten years or so.

[Cratter]

REA=hockey=fine basketball facility (when filled for DI-Kansas)=Kohl Center.

Build 8,000 seat downtown "hockey rink" and turn it into games for basketball for NDSU.

Questions answered.

[timbo]

ndsu will never have d-1 hockey mostly because fo title 9 and the fact that womens hockey which would have to come with loses money every year.

by the way i am a huge bison fan

[bigmrg74]

ndsu will never have d-1 hockey mostly because fo title 9 and the fact that womens hockey which would have to come with loses money every year.

by the way i am a huge bison fan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Captian Obvoius!!!

[The Sicatoka]

Wasn't it $75 MM before?

[url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index3.cfm?id=76798

[airmail]

Be sure to check out the chat on this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They seem to love it...

[U2Bad1]

Wasn't it $75 MM before?

[url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index3.cfm?id=76798

[bisonguy]