Recruiting in High School Hockey

[skateshattrick]

Does anyone on this board really know why all these athletes ended up at Shanley? Most of what I see is speculation, unless of course the person explained the reasons to you first hand.

Yes, I really do know, and no my posts are not speculation. I think that we have spent enough time on this topic, so if you would like to send me a private email, I would be happy to explain how I know and the actual situation as explained above.

[squirtcoach]

The open enrollment issue is as big a problem as the recruiting by private schools. People hear were shocked to see the Monticelo Moorhead score in the AA sectionals. What was it like 23-0 or something. Elk River has the top kids from Monitcello and the western Ex-urbs "open enroll" every year. There are always accusations of "recruiting" by this coach, but nothing is ever proven. You hear the same thing for Duluth East from the North Shore teams and now even Moorhead from the Fargo teams. I'm not standing here accusing these teams, but where there is smoke.... I can't blame the kids, everyone wants to play on winning team. Thats what drives them to play.

As far as the parochial schools, there are several ways to make it more fair. In Wisconsin, private schools used to not be allowed to play in the Public School Tournaments. They had their own. When the public schools let them in, the parochials had to play one class up, i.e., an AA team had to play in the AAA Tourney.

Another way address parochial advantages would be to have the parochial school play in the class with equivalent number of student athletes. For example, Cretin (In St. Paul) is be-moaning being moved to Suburban East conference. They will be playing schools with larger enrollments. They only have 980 students in their high school, compared to 1800 in Stillwater or White Bear Lake. However, if you compare the number of kids in sports, Cretin has 920, whereas most if not all of the schools in Suburban East have fewer than 920 students playing sports. Using sports participation numbers may be the "fairer" way to address parochial school classification.

Will we ever get rid of recruiting? No, the pressure on coaches is too great. But if you want to talk about how publically-funded school vouchers would be selectively used by the parochials, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. I urge you to watch the documentary "Hoop Dreams". It would be more money for these parochial schools if the kids they recruited from the tough streets of Chicago for their "machines" came with tax dollars as well.

[sioux7]

Open enrollment has been going on for years around the country as well as recruiting in all different kinds of sports. Get use to it. It is going to stay. Bid deal.

[airmail]

You can't include Warroad on the list of good public schools. They've done a ton of recruiting. After Section 8 teams threatened to boycott all Warroad games about 10 years ago, they settled done a little, but the last few years they've been up to their old tricks.

When I read the thread topic, this is the town that first came to mind. Certainly what they do is within the guidelines set forth by state instititions, or else they couldn't recruit the way they do. Do I feel its fair to the other public schools in their immediate area? No.

[shanleycheats]

I was very surprised to see the Shanley part of my statement get all the talk in here. I wasn't taking a shot at just one school, I was taking a shot at the principles many of the schools have. If anything i was taking a shot at how Minnesota hockey has gone. Hopefully all the arguments in this one over Shanley will stop, and we will get to the real point of the statement.

[jloos]

For jloos to say that I can't name one kid Shanley has recruited is horrible. I'm here to accept his "challenge".

I never said that, I believe it was Skateshattrick and he proved his point very well.

As far as WF dropping the Co-op my info comes from several Shanley/Oak Grove parents and players. WF was going to Grandfather in the players already playing but were phasing it out. Shanley was either going to get their own team or look for someone else to co-op with (likely W/B). I'm confident in my info - how about you?

[Herf]

I was very surprised to see the Shanley part of my statement get all the talk in here...

What do you expect when your username is "shanleycheats"?

[Sandman]

Recruiting is getting worse around here. Off hockey subject, the top HS Football team in the country for the past 13? years is De La Salle from California and they haven't lost in that span. They have to recruit players, I don't think that part of California breeds D-1 Football players. How long, if ever, will competing schools of De La Salle let that go on? Probobly never

[phoenixin05]

I never said that, I believe it was Skateshattrick and he proved his point very well.

As far as WF dropping the Co-op my info comes from several Shanley/Oak Grove parents and players. WF was going to Grandfather in the players already playing but were phasing it out. Shanley was either going to get their own team or look for someone else to co-op with (likely W/B). I'm confident in my info - how about you?

mine comes from the West Fargo coaching staff

[jloos]

mine comes from the West Fargo coaching staff

Well, I believe WF junior high is out by now, when you get home, get on your parents computer and check out this site. NDHSAA and search their past publications, they are in PDF form so I cannot cut and paste it here. You will find the board minutes where Shanley requests to play NDHS hockey. You will also see the reason for their motion was because WF chose to end the co-op.

Squirt coach - Moorhead did NOT recruit any players. Cory choose on his own to try out and made the team, he was not approached by any MHD staff nor was he guaranteed a spot on the roster. Same goes for their goalie from Alex - he used MN's open enrollment rule and moved in w/ his sister and tried out just like the rest of the players.

[The Sicatoka]

He's Ryan Potulny's buddy: GFRR, Lincoln in the USHL, that other WCHA program they're both at.

[Supertrex]

Some programs actually attract good players...for instance, FSH has an outstanding music program - ranked among the top programs in the nation. My daughter left Shanley (where she lettered in two sports and was a varsity cheerleader) to go to South for the music program. The parallel to the Moorhead hockey program is obvious. Some schools just do things better.

I do agree that certain schools recruit, but I think in the case of a school like Shanley, a certain amount of "influence" was dropped to parents in order to kick start a hockey program...I think having hockey at Shanley just means more hockey for everyone - more kids benefit from more programs. Creating excitement for the program during the early years is a good thing - it gives the peewees something to aspire to. Why should any start-up program get "womped-on" for the first 10 years of it's existence when there are good players available to play? Recruiting is not the long-term solution, but then again, if your reputation is Moorhead's, you don't have to recruit...

[squirtcoach]

Squirt coach - Moorhead did NOT recruit any players. Cory choose on his own to try out and made the team, he was not approached by any MHD staff nor was he guaranteed a spot on the roster. Same goes for their goalie from Alex - he used MN's open enrollment rule and moved in w/ his sister and tried out just like the rest of the players.

Jloos, I know your nephew moved with his family, so any accusation of his move being driven by recruiting is false. I apologize if I made it seem there was any impropriety.

However, I know how other students-athletes are "recruited" by public schools as well as how the kids are "shopped" around by themselves or with their parents. I have seen first hand methods and strategies. My kid was invited to "try out" with a neighboring school by the head baseball coach. There was an implication that we never investigated. I repeat, I make no accusations toward any of the programs. It's just that we continue to hear the same schools every year who have open enrolled players on their rosters. This makes for lop-sided hockey games with talent being concentrated in a few schools.

Just curious, are there any open-enrolled hockey players from the smaller surrounding communities who tried out for Moorhead that the coach did not select for the final team? That would dispell, to a certain degree, the belief that hockey players are promise a spot (recruited) if they come "on their own".

[Cratter]

The point is Not whether schools recruit, because it is obvious some schools do, but how far it is.

[jloos]

[

Jloos, I know your nephew moved with his family, so any accusation of his move being driven by recruiting is false. I apologize if I made it seem there was any impropriety.

However, I know how other students-athletes are "recruited" by public schools as well as how the kids are "shopped" around by themselves or with their parents. I have seen first hand methods and strategies. My kid was invited to "try out" with a neighboring school by the head baseball coach. There was an implication that we never investigated. I repeat, I make no accusations toward any of the programs. It's just that we continue to hear the same schools every year who have open enrolled players on their rosters. This makes for lop-sided hockey games with talent being concentrated in a few schools.

Just curious, are there any open-enrolled hockey players from the smaller surrounding communities who tried out for Moorhead that the coach did not select for the final team? That would dispell, to a certain degree, the belief that hockey players are promise a spot (recruited) if they come "on their own".

[Smoggy]

Jloos,

It's interesting that you note how many would be cut from Moorhead's hockey team. One thing the north does well is create enought teams for the players, up until varsity. When my cousin was in 7th grade at a brand new school in Gilbert (by Mesa/Phoenix), they had over 700 hundred kids try out for 12 basketball spots. No 'B' teams.

The school I teach at in Cali has the same problem. We have about 800 seventh graders and finally got a soccer team going (this is THE sport due to 85% of kids being hispanic). Hundreds tried out for this ONE team.

[Smoggy]

When I read the thread topic, this is the town that first came to mind. Certainly what they do is within the guidelines set forth by state instititions, or else they couldn't recruit the way they do. Do I feel its fair to the other public schools in their immediate area? No.

I don't even know if what they do is set forth in the state guidelines. I believe two Alaskan players were on their team this year. I can't believe that their parents were recruited to work at Marvin. No, they were recruited to for hockey. Also they magically get a foreign exchange student or two that happens to be a guy and plays hockey. While these players may not be 'stars,' it still is mighty strange.

My brother's friend was recruiting while in middle school to play there. I believe I heard they tried getting one of EGF's goalies (I'll have to check my source). When I was in high school, the rumor was that Wyatt Smith's mom was given a beauty salon for them to move from TRF. Not sure if that last one is true and wondering if anyone else had heard of this.

[squirtcoach]

I too have heard stories connecting regarding Warroad High hockey players and and Marvin windows employment opportunities. My sources were very close to the situation.

It is incredible to hear those kind of numbers of kids being denied a chance to play. I am travel director for one of the largest (in numbers of travel teams) travel baseball associations in the Twin Cities, and we go to great lengths recruiting coaches and preparing ballfields to make sure there is a team for every kid who wants to play baseball from ages 9-15.

Time to talk smack with Jloos:

I can't wait for that "Best sophomore team in Minnesota" to play the kids who were crowned 2003 Bantam A champions (WBL) the next couple of years. I assume that the Bantam A Moorhead team that year wasn't representative of all the class of 2006 from Moorhead. The freshman Bears won their semi-final game handily. In the Moorhead/WBL JV game this year, it went down to the wire with the ref missing a WBL goal in the last seconds that had tied it. The Bears JV team was without the top five sophomores, including WBL's top goalie, all of whom who played varsity last year. We'll be coming up to Moorhead to play in December this year. Maybe we can get together afterwards.

I'm not so experienced at talking smack, but better at talking hockey. Hopefully I got the emoticons right. Diggler could probably give me pointers

God, I miss Sioux hockey already.

[jloos]

Time to talk smack with Jloos:

I can't wait for that "Best sophomore team in Minnesota" to play the kids who were crowned 2003 Bantam A champions (WBL) the next couple of years. I assume that the Bantam A Moorhead team that year wasn't representative of all the class of 2006 from Moorhead. The freshman Bears won their semi-final game handily. In the Moorhead/WBL JV game this year, it went down to the wire with the ref missing a WBL goal in the last seconds that had tied it. The Bears JV team was without the top five sophomores, including WBL's top goalie, all of whom who played varsity last year. We'll be coming up to Moorhead to play in December this year. Maybe we can get together afterwards.

I'm not so experienced at talking smack, but better at talking hockey. Hopefully I got the emoticons right. Diggler could probably give me pointers

God, I miss Sioux hockey already.

Actually I ment next years Sophomore class, Moorhead's 2004 Bantam A team won state. Last years Sophomore class, next years Junior class was week in comparison, very few made the JV team, none made varsity. WBL had a very good team this year, and probably the best JV team in the state. They and Moorhead along with Centennial will be early favorites for next season. Although we will have to wait and find out who goes USHL.

Lee was named captain for Mhd next year and has no plans on leaving. Ammerman and Becker were named alternates.

I lived by WBL a couple years ago, they take their hockey seriously up there, even compared to other MN towns, I've never seen a town of that size with that many youth teams.

[Millionaire]

Aside from some personal bashing on the topic starter, this has been a very interesting topic. The first post proposed what I thought was a relatively well backed up argument, given the information he/she had (it was more than I knew off the top of my head, which isn't true often enough). It turns out that others here had more specifics on Shanley and others--certainly more than I expected.

shanleycheats deserved some suspicion by creating a new handle for this thread. The vendetta was a cheap shot, but the topic is worth discussing, and like I said, I'm pleased with the result.

Obligatory topic fodder:

Recruiting/open enrollment in sports is different from other programs like music. Gifted athletes swarming to one school directly affects the other schools because of the nature of the head-to-head competition between schools. The gaining schools are unnaturally powerful, and the losing schools' kids lose their chance to compete.

Most posters here seem to be saying "that's just how it is," which is surprising to me. Should we remove the rules altogether, and turn high school recruiting into an open process like the NCAA? I don't have the answers, but I hope that's not the eventual result.

My ethical rule isn't absolute: A gifted player stuck in Devil's Lake, or a player who can't make the team in his home school seem to be good candidates for transfer if they are willing to move. On the other hand I think the Lamoureauxs bypassing perfectly capable Red River HS to go to Central isn't right. For those unfamiliar with NDHS hockey, I'm not exaggerating when I say this decision may well have made the difference in a RRHS state championship or two rather than Central. (Note I said "may" and this is just my opinion.)

I do hope that HS recruiting stays taboo enough that coaches must slink around and possibly choose not do it at all. The gathering of gifted talent from around regions should stay in junior hockey.

[Wilbur]

Alright time to talk about Krebsbach, GOOD GUESS GUYS!!!!

1. When he lived in Grand Forks, I believe that he lived by himself. He got a house or apartment or something like that, or maybe his dad lived with him a little bit because his parents were divorced yet, his dad was in Minot a lot. I don't disagree with him going to Red River though, the kid did great and is playing DI hockey, I still talk to him, great guy!!

2. Samson made a huge mistake cutting Krebsbach. As Freshman our team took second at state in Bantam A to Grand Forks South....aka Red River, and the next year there is no way Nick shouldn't have been on the first line in Minot, Samson didn't want to cut seniors, and it cost us our best player....

3. Our team didn't make state as seniors, probably because we didn't have Nick.

[squirtcoach]

Actually I ment next years Sophomore class, Moorhead's 2004 Bantam A team won state. Last years Sophomore class, next years Junior class was week in comparison, very few made the JV team, none made varsity. WBL had a very good team this year, and probably the best JV team in the state. They and Moorhead along with Centennial will be early favorites for next season. Although we will have to wait and find out who goes USHL.

Lee was named captain for Mhd next year and has no plans on leaving. Ammerman and Becker were named alternates.

I lived by WBL a couple years ago, they take their hockey seriously up there, even compared to other MN towns, I've never seen a town of that size with that many youth teams.

Agreed: Moorhead will have a solid sophomore class next year.

I think Centennial again will be the class to beat. WBL will be young, with more underclassmen than seniors, and Moorhead will have a lot of D-1 prospects if they all come back. Doesn't appear that any WBL kids are going to USHL.

I know WBL takes their hockey seriously. I have had 6-7 10 year-olds quit baseball this summer to do hockey strengthening programs.

Wilbur, I kind of agree with you. I think it detracts from the game, I would prefer a system where a kid from a school has grown up with his teammates. The open enrollment system as it stands has the potential for abuse, and coaches are put in a situation where they are pressured to put the best team they can field. Unscrupulous coaches would have an advantage. And in the Parochial schools, top recruiters, not the top coaches, have the most success.

I always cheer for the kid who stays with his home-town team (Like Bostrom from Moundsview) knowing that they won't even make it past the semi-finals in a sectional populated by the likes of WBL, Centennial and Hill Murray. WBL Senior High and Centennial Senior High are about as far away from his home as Moundsview Senior High.

[defensivend]

In the comment on lamoureax playing at Central and not RR may be his choice and not recruiting if I'm right I think his dad played there.(not sure about that) and if it is so it may be that his family has strong ties to Central. I had a son who played in GF and he Played for Central and he could"ve played for RR but both my husband and I went to Central and that is where our children went it had nothing to do with recruiting.If he'd had his choice he would've went to RR all his friends were there. Recruiting does happen, I'm sure but you know the kids go where they will get the most out of any program. The bottom line is to be the best at what you do and most of the young athletes today want to be the best and lets face it not all schools,towns etc have that ability to give it to them so they seek it else where. If you really want to go further in the sport than just high school then sometimes you have to go where you will get noticed.There were those who left for the USHL early giving up their senior year and it was their choice to go. In the hopes to get into college or better and for some it worked. I think that a lot of it isn't recruiting it is a choice they make for themselves and of course winning it what it is all about it is just a fact of life. Even in the pro's you look at all the leagues NHL and down there is so much shifting of players during the season that i think they meet themselves coming and going and it is all about getting the best players ,the right mix to win. For athletes it's all about getting there.

[skateshattrick]

In the comment on lamoureax playing at Central and not RR may be his choice and not recruiting if I'm right I think his dad played there.(not sure about that) and if it is so it may be that his family has strong ties to Central. I had a son who played in GF and he Played for Central and he could"ve played for RR but both my husband and I went to Central and that is where our children went it had nothing to do with recruiting.If he'd had his choice he would've went to RR all his friends were there. Recruiting does happen, I'm sure but you know the kids go where they will get the most out of any program. The bottom line is to be the best at what you do and most of the young athletes today want to be the best and lets face it not all schools,towns etc have that ability to give it to them so they seek it else where. If you really want to go further in the sport than just high school then sometimes you have to go where you will get noticed.There were those who left for the USHL early giving up their senior year and it was their choice to go. In the hopes to get into college or better and for some it worked. I think that a lot of it isn't recruiting it is a choice they make for themselves and of course winning it what it is all about it is just a fact of life. Even in the pro's you look at all the leagues NHL and down there is so much shifting of players during the season that i think they meet themselves coming and going and it is all about getting the best players ,the right mix to win. For athletes it's all about getting there.

Pierre Lamoreaux is Canadian. The reason the kids ended up at Central is that Tarek Howard told Phillipe that he would be able to play right away at Central and he would have been a backup to Ziegelmann at Red River.

However, you do make a good point. Some kids know that if they want to get noticed, they should go to the place where they will play and get noticed. Others may not like the coach and feel like they may get get a chance to play at one school. Others have fear of getting cut at the school in their district because of numbers. I do not begrudge those kids, but isn't it interesting that this thread started as a rip to the private parochial schools, particularly Shanley, and now it has been shown that it is primarily the public schools where these incidents have occurred?

Red River had Spooner from Williston, Krebsbach from Minot and Irmen from Fargo.

Central has south end kids, including the Lamoureauxs, McIntyre (at least since the flood when he was in 7th grade) and Marto, and others.

West Fargo has south Fargo kids that have played, including the Kellys and Tanner Anderson before his parents moved to West Fargo.

Shanley has a very difficult time competing with the big boys because of numbers and because it is expensive to attend a parochial school. I find it interesting and ironic that when they take the kids that nobody else wanted or were cut, they immediately get accused of "recruiting." For those who do make those accusations, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

[#1siouxfan22]

Pierre Lamoreaux is Canadian. The reason the kids ended up at Central is that Tarek Howard told Phillipe that he would be able to play right away at Central and he would have been a backup to Ziegelmann at Red River.

However, you do make a good point. Some kids know that if they want to get noticed, they should go to the place where they will play and get noticed. Others may not like the coach and feel like they may get get a chance to play at one school. Others have fear of getting cut at the school in their district because of numbers. I do not begrudge those kids, but isn't it interesting that this thread started as a rip to the private parochial schools, particularly Shanley, and now it has been shown that it is primarily the public schools where these incidents have occurred?

Red River had Spooner from Williston, Krebsbach from Minot and Irmen from Fargo.

Central has south end kids, including the Lamoureauxs, McIntyre (at least since the flood when he was in 7th grade) and Marto, and others.

West Fargo has south Fargo kids that have played, including the Kellys and Tanner Anderson before his parents moved to West Fargo.

Shanley has a very difficult time competing with the big boys because of numbers and because it is expensive to attend a parochial school. I find it interesting and ironic that when they take the kids that nobody else wanted or were cut, they immediately get accused of "recruiting." For those who do make those accusations, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Spooner played for Grafton not Red River