Adjusting Expectations

[fightingsioux4life]

It is absolute nonsense to blame Hockey for the woes of Football - Most fans are fans of both and like myself attend both sports.  The new indoor practice facility is an example of the support for football.  There is only one way that a successful Hockey program affects Football - the demand for a winner from the fans.  For fans of both, it is convenient when Football starts sucking to feel "well, at least we have a good hockey team".  The pressure to perform here is nowhere near what it is in Fargo for football.  Sioux fans have an incredible tolerance for mediocrity and crap as evidenced by Muss's lengthy stay.  How long would he have lasted at Fargo?  In fact, after the Sioux Falls fiasco, I and others who pointed out how bad this was were taken to task by many on this board who felt Muss was just fine.  Even into his last year he had a number of supporters here.  When we as fans start demanding a winner things will come around faster.  Add in a couple of incredibly poor AD's and here we are.  Time for the AD to feel pressure to bring us a winner in Football and Basketball (same thing applies - an incredible patience for crap here too)

The hockey program does what it does very well and there are high standards each and every season. I just wish the rest of our programs would follow suit. And, like you, I believe our fan base tolerates way too much crap.

My earlier post was a response to the idea that we should just accept mediocrity in all non-hockey programs and that is 100% unacceptable. And I agree with you, the standards and expectations around here are not even close to what they used to be and need to be. And, like I have pointed out many times before, that has to change. Or else moving up to Division I was a waste of time, energy and resources. Just like the whole nickname search fiasco has been. And that points to a lack of leadership at the top. Which is why the next President of UND needs to have a vision for excellence in all that we do here.

[Westside]

    The "lack of depth is a bad team" reference is nullified when the coach is in yr 1.5.   To think bubba could make und playoff bound by yr two and with what he had to work with would of been incredible .  I'm not even sure about next yr.    Btw, bubba isn't at Duluth or s illinois anymore.  Mute point.  Just look at what belicheck did before hitting gold with New England.  Nothing!!  He sucked.   So let's just drop what he did or didn't do before his arrival.   The depth is something they're obviously working on, but with only two recruiting classes that's a bit difficult.  This is a message board and you have the right to being completely pessimistic , but I believe majority of us realize the tough circumstances bubba has been thrown.  The secondary issue is very frustrating but not for a lack of talent. One corner is top 5 in fcs in pass breakups, another one is miss st transfer that has played in a bowl game and safety that was well regarded. Numerous times the defenders are covering the wr lack the fundamental to watch the eyes of the receiver. They must counter act a reaction. Db coach needs to step it up.  Will ratelle surely be missed but taj is more then ready to be the undisputed leader of the d next yr.   his injury affected the way the d is playing. Huge loss!!!  He's an X factor and a do it all type of player  Happy to have back next yr .  One last thing....in bubba we trust 

FWIW, according to the 2015 media guide, Bubba is still responsible for coaching the CBs, while Rodgers handles the Safeties.  I know this was the arrangement last year too.  Maybe someone that has attended practices this year can confirm, but if there are problems with the CB fundamentals then that should fall on Bubba, if that is still his position group...

From the 2015 media guide, as well as Bubba's & Rodger's bios on UNDsports.com ...

The defensive-minded head coach still works with the team's cornerbacks and they were part of a unit that led the Big Sky in total defense and rush defense in 2014. 

Marty Rodgers is set to enter his second season as the safeties coach at UND in 2015

 

 

[Longtime fan]

 

FWIW, according to the 2015 media guide, Bubba is still responsible for coaching the CBs, while Rodgers handles the Safeties.  I know this was the arrangement last year too.  Maybe someone that has attended practices this year can confirm, but if there are problems with the CB fundamentals then that should fall on Bubba, if that is still his position group...

From the 2015 media guide, as well as Bubba's & Rodger's bios on UNDsports.com ...

 

If true then bubba needs to promote or hire a db coach.  Full attention to head coaching !!

[Westside]

Exactly. Just as we need a dedicated QB coach other than Rudolph. 

[RD17]

Then we should never have moved up in the first place. You are accepting and embracing mediocrity. I will not do that. And neither will a lot of other people on this forum. I suppose you have the same low standards for Men's and Women's Basketball too?

Being Division I just for the sake of being Division I is a waste of time, energy and resources. I have never liked it when other schools moved up just for the Division I label and I will not stand for UND accepting mediocrity as the norm as long as I am on this planet.

And this idea that athletics is a zero sum game (one revenue sport that wins and everything else has to be garbage) has to stop being promoted as fact. It is a falsehood. You conveniently left out Florida, which has won national titles in both basketball and football in recent years. But that would have ruined your argument, so I understand why you left it out. And UConn has won national titles in both Men's and Women's Basketball in the same year! Based on your hypothesis, the men's team at UConn should always suck.

You can accept perennial mediocrity in FB and whatever else if you wish, I shall not.

End Rant.

In Bubba We Trust.

I am not accepting or promoting anything. I am merely providing commentary on the state of the football program. I am powerless to affect any change on the football program on a day to day basis. 

Athletics by its very nature is a zero sum game- for every winner there has to be a loser. Each school also has limited resources and must spend its resources where it sees fit. UND spends a great deal of resources on hockey leaving the scraps for the other sports. 

Yes, Florida is an anomaly along with Ohio State and now to a degree Wisconsin in the sense that they have been very good at both top men's revenue sports at once. What do they do different than the other schools? All three of them are in the top ten in the country in athletic budget so they have the excess money to throw at their "secondary" revenue sports. They can outspend the bluebloods in basketball to get on par with them. I think Alabama is now trying to do the same thing in basketball. UND is not in that position- resources are limited. And my hypothesis had nothing to do with women's sports.

For the record, I am not bearish on all UND sports at the D-I level. I think volleyball has tremendous potential because of the availability of athletes and the fact the the Betty is a great facility for that sport. It also helps that NDSU is not what it used to be in that sport. Women's basketball also has potential because of the number of athletes in the region and the tradition of the program. I think potential in men's basketball is limited. NDSU and SDSU already have the market cornered on that sport in the region. Plus, will anyone care if UND makes the big dance as a 15 seed when the hockey playoffs are going on? I doubt it.

[Cratter]

Exactly. Just as we need a dedicated QB coach other than Rudolph. 

Just like NDSU?

Does that mean NDSU is putting more resources into its football program than UND?

Isn't that what RD17 is saying?

Edited October 30, 2015 by Cratter

[RD17]

It is absolute nonsense to blame Hockey for the woes of Football - Most fans are fans of both and like myself attend both sports.  The new indoor practice facility is an example of the support for football.  There is only one way that a successful Hockey program affects Football - the demand for a winner from the fans.  For fans of both, it is convenient when Football starts sucking to feel "well, at least we have a good hockey team".  The pressure to perform here is nowhere near what it is in Fargo for football.  Sioux fans have an incredible tolerance for mediocrity and crap as evidenced by Muss's lengthy stay.  How long would he have lasted at Fargo?  In fact, after the Sioux Falls fiasco, I and others who pointed out how bad this was were taken to task by many on this board who felt Muss was just fine.  Even into his last year he had a number of supporters here.  When we as fans start demanding a winner things will come around faster.  Add in a couple of incredibly poor AD's and here we are.  Time for the AD to feel pressure to bring us a winner in Football and Basketball (same thing applies - an incredible patience for crap here too).

Passion and demands from a fan base are exactly the reasons why some sports succeed at some schools and not at others. Excellence in football is demanded in Fargo. There is no other option but to be good. I have no doubt that they could move to FBS and be successful there as well because it is demanded. Same goes for UND hockey. On its face it doesn't make sense that UND was able to compete with and beat teams like Minnesota and Wisconsin for all those years, but the fan base demanded excellence and the administration, coaches and players along the way had no other choice but to get themselves to a point of competing with the best. This is the reason Alabama football can go 3-8 and go on probation and yet be back winning national championships a few years later. It's the reason why Kentucky basketball has a history of excellence. It's the reason Nebraska would fire a football coach that wins 9 games every year: their tradition demands national championships. On a smaller scale it's the reason USF has already been ranked in the top five after moving to D2: they expect to win big and will do whatever it takes to get there.

Support for UND football is relatively lethargic. There is always the hunting season excuse for poor attendance late in the year. Does NDSU have this same problem? Of course not. Even the coaches and biggest UND supporters don't talk about I-AA national championships- they talk about winning the Big Sky. Do you think Montana supporters think the same way? Of course not. Winning championships in the Big Sky is a given, just a step along the way. The goal there is to win national titles and anything less is failure. It's why they have been so consistently successful over the years.

Edited October 30, 2015 by RD17

[SiouxVolley]

Passion and demands from a fan base are exactly the reasons why some sports succeed at some schools and not at others. Excellence in football is demanded in Fargo. There is no other option but to be good. I have no doubt that they could move to FBS and be successful there as well because it is demanded. Same goes for UND hockey. On its face it doesn't make sense that UND was able to compete with and beat teams like Minnesota and Wisconsin for all those years, but the fan base demanded excellence and the administration, coaches and players along the way had no other choice but to get themselves to a point of competing with the best. This is the reason Alabama football can go 3-8 and go on probation and yet be back winning national championships a few years later. It's the reason why Kentucky basketball has a history of excellence. It's the reason Nebraska would fire a football coach that wins 9 games every year: their tradition demands national championships. On a smaller scale it's the reason USF has already been ranked in the top five after moving to D2: they expect to win big and will do whatever it takes to get there.

Support for UND football is relatively lethargic. There is always the hunting season excuse for poor attendance late in the year. Does NDSU have this same problem? Of course not. Even the coaches and biggest UND supporters don't talk about I-AA national championships- they talk about winning the Big Sky. Do you think Montana supporters think the same way? Of course not. Winning championships in the Big Sky is a given, just a step along the way. The goal there is to win national titles and anything less is failure. It's why they have been so consistently successful over the years.

Agreed with some of this, but look at Louisville.  Formerly, it was a basketball only school.  But their AD Tom Jurich made all their programs into powers:  football, volleyball, baseball, softball etc with the facilities to match.  Louisville has made the most from basketball gates for years, but Jurich transformed it into one of the most balanced overall programs around, financed largely by mbball.  They went from the Metro to the ACC in under 20 years.  W Kentucky is another success story that took mbball and made an all around program, including an FCS to FBS transition.

Why is SDSU suddenly successful at football?  The fan base only cares about Hobo Days, not the football result.  How did NDSU get good in mbball?  They didn't do anything forever in that sport, but they have made like three dances since moving up.

Dont think Faison will be the to lead us on to glory.  Seems more satisfied with sucking up to Kelley pretending all is fine than making hard decisions.

Edited October 30, 2015 by SiouxVolley

[fightingsioux4life]

I am not accepting or promoting anything. I am merely providing commentary on the state of the football program. I am powerless to affect any change on the football program on a day to day basis. 

Athletics by its very nature is a zero sum game- for every winner there has to be a loser. Each school also has limited resources and must spend its resources where it sees fit. UND spends a great deal of resources on hockey leaving the scraps for the other sports. 

Yes, Florida is an anomaly along with Ohio State and now to a degree Wisconsin in the sense that they have been very good at both top men's revenue sports at once. What do they do different than the other schools? All three of them are in the top ten in the country in athletic budget so they have the excess money to throw at their "secondary" revenue sports. They can outspend the bluebloods in basketball to get on par with them. I think Alabama is now trying to do the same thing in basketball. UND is not in that position- resources are limited. And my hypothesis had nothing to do with women's sports.

For the record, I am not bearish on all UND sports at the D-I level. I think volleyball has tremendous potential because of the availability of athletes and the fact the the Betty is a great facility for that sport. It also helps that NDSU is not what it used to be in that sport. Women's basketball also has potential because of the number of athletes in the region and the tradition of the program. I think potential in men's basketball is limited. NDSU and SDSU already have the market cornered on that sport in the region. Plus, will anyone care if UND makes the big dance as a 15 seed when the hockey playoffs are going on? I doubt it.

But you are accepting and promoting mediocrity. Because we as fans just accept being average at everything except hockey, there is no pressure on Faison and Kelley to do anything about it. NDSU puts a lot of resources into football, but that doesn't prevent them from having competitive Men's Basketball teams. Again, based on your zero-sum theory, NDSU's men's basketball team should suck all the time because of football. But it doesn't. And since when do we determine which of our programs will be successful based on what NDSU does? This idea that we have to play second-fiddle to NDSU in everything because they did it first has to die. I am so sick of hearing Bison this, Bison that, "My Oh My" this, "There's your dagger!" that out of Imperial Cass County. And part of it is a result of our poorly managed transition period, when mediocrity was rewarded and there was turmoil within the athletic department. But that doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't do better.

Our goals as a Division I school should be: 1) Contend both within the conference and nationally, as an FCS football program, 2) Have both men's and women's basketball programs that contend for Big Sky tournament titles and appearances in March Madness and 3) Have our other sports (Volleyball being the most prominent example) do the same. It won't happen all the time, but we should set those goals and work towards them. And that means having a President and Athletic Director that have a vision of excellence for everything we do (athletics, academics and research) and that hold people to those high standards and are willing to make changes as needed. Kelley is a rudderless ship who will be leaving port soon (Thank God). Faison (who has done some good things here) needs to start holding coaches to higher expectations or the new President should find someone who can and will.

In closing, success is a choice. You seem to think it isn't, but I believe it is. And I wish UND would start making better choices instead of accepting mediocrity and malaise as "just the way things are".

End Rant.

[fightingsioux4life]

Just like NDSU?

Does that mean NDSU is putting more resources into its football program than UND?

Isn't that what RD17 is saying?

RD17 is saying we will never, ever do anything in any sport except hockey....ever. And even if we do, the Bison had better not have done it first or else they will have "cornered the market" on that particular sport. Because everything is a zero-sum game.  

Funny, that doesn't stop NDSU from having success in FB and MBB at the same time. It doesn't stop them from having success in softball (despite the same harsh climate we have to deal with). And it probably won't stop them from having VB success again someday (I don't think they'll tolerate mediocrity in that program for much longer).

I guess there is an imaginary line through Hillsboro that divides the Valley into two spheres of existence: One where everything is a zero-sum game and there are no resources to do anything about anything and another where people strive to succeed and achieve excellence in everything they do. UND is the former and NDSU is the latter.

But I guess if our fans like it that way, then who am I to judge?

[2TRU4U]

Just like NDSU?

Does that mean NDSU is putting more resources into its football program than UND?

Isn't that what RD17 is saying?

IIRC, there is a limit to the number of coaches FCS teams can have (also FBS, but larger number).  The difference from NDSU, is the Offense of    coordinator coaches running backs instead of quarterbacks.

[bincitysioux]

 

I think people need to adjust expectations for the entire program, not just this season. I think many people here really believe UND can be a national championship caliber program because it happened in D2 and because NDSU is doing it. I don’t think that will ever happen. There are too many forces working against it, the main one being that this is a hockey school. It was possible to be successful at a national level in D2 football but that’s because UND had such an advantage as an institution over the schools it was playing. At this level that institutional advantage is gone and it’s all about which schools are going to put the most resources and support behind the program.

 

While I appreciate your argument, as it is well thought out, I simply disagree.

You seem to imply that UND has no tradition in football, and that the success the program experienced from circa 2000-2007 was some sort of anomaly due to UND being a "big fish in a small pond".  I am confident that UND will be a national championship caliber program in the not too distant future, just as they were in the 2000's, just as they were in the 90's, just as they were in the 70's, and just as the were in the 60's.  UND is among some of the all-time winningest college football programs in the country.  That is no anomaly.  The 25 conference championship banners hanging in the Alerus were not all hung during the last 7 years of their DII history. 

I agree with you that UND football faces its own institutional challenges that some of its regional peers do not have to deal with in that it is not, and likely never will be, the #1 sport on campus.  Can they succeed despite this?  I say yes, they sure did as much in the 2000's, the 90's, the 70's, the 60's.  Basketball has never been the #1 sport at NDSU at look what they've accomplished the last 8 or so years.  Football has never been the #1 sport at SDSU and look what that program has done the last 8 or so years.  SDSU had virtually the same "institutional advantage" while in DII that you say was the reason for UND's DII success, but they were perennial middle-of-pack program for their first 100 years of existence.  Then they elevate their program and have unprecedented success.   

As a football first fan here of UND, I certainly would like it if the administration poured more resources into the sport if they have any more to pour in.  But it is also wrong to say they don't invest in the program.  They footed most of the bill to make sure the Alerus put in the turf that they wanted a couple years ago.  They built a ridiculous facility for the football team to practice in in the event we get a little rain.  You mentioned the salaries of the coaching staff being amongst the top 5 of the Big Sky.  Well they were at the very bottom of the Big Sky when we joined the league, so that is another area where they have invested, and hopefully within 5 years they will be even higher.

[Cratter]

IIRC, there is a limit to the number of coaches FCS teams can have (also FBS, but larger number).  The difference from NDSU, is the Offense of    coordinator coaches running backs instead of quarterbacks.

The NDSU football coaches website lists more coaches than the UND football website.

[CMSioux]

Passion and demands from a fan base are exactly the reasons why some sports succeed at some schools and not at others. Excellence in football is demanded in Fargo. There is no other option but to be good. I have no doubt that they could move to FBS and be successful there as well because it is demanded. Same goes for UND hockey. On its face it doesn't make sense that UND was able to compete with and beat teams like Minnesota and Wisconsin for all those years, but the fan base demanded excellence and the administration, coaches and players along the way had no other choice but to get themselves to a point of competing with the best. This is the reason Alabama football can go 3-8 and go on probation and yet be back winning national championships a few years later. It's the reason why Kentucky basketball has a history of excellence. It's the reason Nebraska would fire a football coach that wins 9 games every year: their tradition demands national championships. On a smaller scale it's the reason USF has already been ranked in the top five after moving to D2: they expect to win big and will do whatever it takes to get there.

Support for UND football is relatively lethargic. There is always the hunting season excuse for poor attendance late in the year. Does NDSU have this same problem? Of course not. Even the coaches and biggest UND supporters don't talk about I-AA national championships- they talk about winning the Big Sky. Do you think Montana supporters think the same way? Of course not. Winning championships in the Big Sky is a given, just a step along the way. The goal there is to win national titles and anything less is failure. It's why they have been so consistently successful over the years.

There are already empty seats down south - quite sure I could get a ticket to a game there once deer season start. I don't really see the value of all your negative posts doesn't change anything doesn't create any kind of positive dialogue but it's a free country just hope you don't walk around with the same kind of attitude. Life's too short find something to enjoy about the season and life. 

[Longtime fan]

We as fans do not accept mediocrity. Proof is here at sioux sports, a fan website!!   When und was 4-1 not to many of us were satisfied.  Plenty of whining, complaining ,concerns and questions!!   By reading some of the posts, you would make an assumption we were 1-4.  If most teams were posting a 4-1 record they would be happy. Port st comes to mind.  They're not used to winning but even after the und lose they really liked what was happening. 

 Football tradition is strong here, maybe not the upper echelon but not bottom either.  When you consider the fact there has only been 8 losing seasons in the last 50 yrs and half of those have been the last 5 yrs, it proves that und  is currently in a rebuilding stage.  

I look at a couple of components that have factored into this

1). The most significant was the move to D1 with mussman!  Mussman was a nice enough guy but a horrible head coach. This is where the blame falls squarely on faison and his complacency.  Muss set this program back many yrs and now bubba has the task of cleaning up the mess and I have 100% confidence he will. 

 2).   I'll keep it short, faison should follow Kelly.

 Football is every bit as important to us as fans but unfortunately we currently ride in the caboose of the mussman train wreck.  It's been very frustrating the last 7 yrs but I have full confidence that bubba has this team heading in the right direction. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

UND's support of football needs to improve. It is better than when Mussman was coaching, mainly through requests made by Bubba, but there still needs to be more improvements. Coaching salary and general athletic department coverage/support is lacking. I understand that UND can be successful at both football and hockey, but as of now, UND's support is still not evenly distributed between the two (not even close). 

Faison and the athletic department are the largest component in this issue/dynamic. Having an $100 million hockey facility is blinding to many; however, it just can't be anymore. It's time to begin focusing more on the primary sports of U.S. collegiate athletics: football and basketball. 

[geaux_sioux]

UND's support of football needs to improve. It is better than when Mussman was coaching, mainly through requests made by Bubba, but there still needs to be more improvements. Coaching salary and general athletic department coverage/support is lacking. I understand that UND can be successful at both football and hockey, but as of now, UND's support is still not evenly distributed between the two (not even close). 

Faison and the athletic department are the largest component in this issue/dynamic. Having an $100 million hockey facility is blinding to many; however, it just can't be anymore. It's time to begin focusing more on the primary sports of U.S. collegiate athletics: football and basketball. 

Our admin is leaving a lot of potential revenue on the table. Football, both basketballs, and volleyball can all use more support which always leads to greater success. You need to spend money to make it.

[RD17]

Agreed with some of this, but look at Louisville.  Formerly, it was a basketball only school.  But their AD Tom Jurich made all their programs into powers:  football, volleyball, baseball, softball etc with the facilities to match.  Louisville has made the most from basketball gates for years, but Jurich transformed it into one of the most balanced overall programs around, financed largely by mbball.  They went from the Metro to the ACC in under 20 years.  W Kentucky is another success story that took mbball and made an all around program, including an FCS to FBS transition.

Why is SDSU suddenly successful at football?  The fan base only cares about Hobo Days, not the football result.  How did NDSU get good in mbball?  They didn't do anything forever in that sport, but they have made like three dances since moving up.

Dont think Faison will be the to lead us on to glory.  Seems more satisfied with sucking up to Kelley pretending all is fine than making hard decisions.

Louisville is a national power in basketball, and while they are improved, they are not a power in football. Had a few nice years in the Big East but now have a losing record this year in the ACC. And if you are suggesting that UND can get some financial lift off its hockey program to benefit the other sports, there is little evidence of that happening now. REA Inc. has its own interests to look out for and financial gains back to the school in men's hockey are offset to a large degree by the money pit that is women's hockey. Maybe when UND has full control of the REA things will change but that is still years off into the future.

SDSU was a 7-4 type of team in the NCC that has become a 7-4 team in FCS. The difference is they can make the playoffs with a 7-4 record in the FCS. I think they badly underachieved in football when they were in D2 and have done decent in FCS because of stability with Steigelmeier and because they jumped in at the right time. Long-term I believe SDSU has more potential than UND in football. They are getting it done with their new stadium and they have an untapped market of 250K people to make their own if they can ever really get it going (for the record, I would feel much more strongly about the long-term prospects of UND football if they had a large untapped market to get into as well). Yes, SDSU is in a basketball state and have always kind of been a basketball school and those factors may hold them back from ever becoming a true national power. But they are close to some fertile FCS recruiting grounds and with no real threat from other in-state schools to steal their thunder, they might not be able to screw it up. Yes, Brookings is a crappy little cow town but so are Manhattan and Stillwater and they seem to be able to make it happen in football as well.

NDSU (and SDSU) men's basketball have benefited greatly by the power vacuum in the Summit. With Valpo, Oakland and Oral Roberts all leaving in the last few years somebody had to take over. There have only been 7 or 8 schools in the league for a few years and the others are a bunch of commuter schools that don't care. In the Big Sky there are 12 schools playing basketball which means more to climb over when all of these leagues only have a single NCAA bid.

 

[fightingsioux4life]

Louisville is a national power in basketball, and while they are improved, they are not a power in football. Had a few nice years in the Big East but now have a losing record this year in the ACC. And if you are suggesting that UND can get some financial lift off its hockey program to benefit the other sports, there is little evidence of that happening now. REA Inc. has its own interests to look out for and financial gains back to the school in men's hockey are offset to a large degree by the money pit that is women's hockey. Maybe when UND has full control of the REA things will change but that is still years off into the future.

Are you serious? Last time I checked, REA was built by Ralph Engelstad for the sole purpose of benefiting UND. That means REA, Inc. should exist to support UND, UND should not be serving REA, Inc. This is a problem I have pointed out many times on this forum and all I get is static and accusations that I am not a real fan. And if you really think we are supposed to just accept this cute little arrangement for the foreseeable future, then you are kidding yourself. If anything is dividing hockey from the other sports, it is this cute little arrangement. If REA wants to have their cute little tennis matches, concerts, circuses and basketball games, that is fine. But they exist to support UND, not "its own interests to look out for".

If the hockey program is our main revenue sport and it isn't producing enough revenue to fund our non-revenue sports and get our underperforming, potential revenue sports out of their funks (thanks to "having their own interests to look out for"), then that is a problem that needs to be solved. Or else we shouldn't be Division I. Period.

End Rant.

[RD17]

But you are accepting and promoting mediocrity. Because we as fans just accept being average at everything except hockey, there is no pressure on Faison and Kelley to do anything about it. NDSU puts a lot of resources into football, but that doesn't prevent them from having competitive Men's Basketball teams. Again, based on your zero-sum theory, NDSU's men's basketball team should suck all the time because of football. But it doesn't. And since when do we determine which of our programs will be successful based on what NDSU does? This idea that we have to play second-fiddle to NDSU in everything because they did it first has to die. I am so sick of hearing Bison this, Bison that, "My Oh My" this, "There's your dagger!" that out of Imperial Cass County. And part of it is a result of our poorly managed transition period, when mediocrity was rewarded and there was turmoil within the athletic department. But that doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't do better.

Our goals as a Division I school should be: 1) Contend both within the conference and nationally, as an FCS football program, 2) Have both men's and women's basketball programs that contend for Big Sky tournament titles and appearances in March Madness and 3) Have our other sports (Volleyball being the most prominent example) do the same. It won't happen all the time, but we should set those goals and work towards them. And that means having a President and Athletic Director that have a vision of excellence for everything we do (athletics, academics and research) and that hold people to those high standards and are willing to make changes as needed. Kelley is a rudderless ship who will be leaving port soon (Thank God). Faison (who has done some good things here) needs to start holding coaches to higher expectations or the new President should find someone who can and will.

In closing, success is a choice. You seem to think it isn't, but I believe it is. And I wish UND would start making better choices instead of accepting mediocrity and malaise as "just the way things are".

End Rant.

I am not accepting or condoning anything. I support the teams and hope they can win at the highest level. I am simply giving my opinion as to the state of the program and what I think it's future holds based on all factors as they are. If I was the AD or President of the University or had $200 million to finance a new stadium I would then have the power to affect change on the situation. I guarantee if I was AD things would be drastically different in regard to the athletic priorities at UND and that football would have a legit chance to become something special. 

Please re-read what your goal is for the football program. You appear to be one of the biggest "duckies and bunnies" posters on this message board when it comes to football and you won't even come out and say that the goal for the football program should be to win national championships. Contending both within the conference and nationally is what SDSU is doing in football. I would have expected you to want more. 

[fightingsioux4life]

I am not accepting or condoning anything. I support the teams and hope they can win at the highest level. I am simply giving my opinion as to the state of the program and what I think it's future holds based on all factors as they are. If I was the AD or President of the University or had $200 million to finance a new stadium I would then have the power to affect change on the situation. I guarantee if I was AD things would be drastically different in regard to the athletic priorities at UND and that football would have a legit chance to become something special. 

Please re-read what your goal is for the football program. You appear to be one of the biggest "duckies and bunnies" posters on this message board when it comes to football and you won't even come out and say that the goal for the football program should be to win national championships. Contending both within the conference and nationally is what SDSU is doing in football. I would have expected you to want more. 

Excuse me, but I was one of the biggest "Fire Muss" posters on here in 2013. Now that I think Bubba should get a reasonable amount of time to fix what Mussman broke, I am "duckies and bunnies"? That just doesn't make sense.

It should go without saying that the ultimate goal is winning FCS titles in FB. But that is the problem at UND, people aren't thinking like that. And that annoys the heck out of me.

The differences between UND and NDSU are not that great. But NDSU has had way more success than we have over the past 10 years or so (except maybe in WBB). That tells you what a lack of leadership and, conversely, a presence of leadership looks like. And I think you know which school is in which category.

The big difference between us is that you think this is just the way things are and it will likely not change anytime soon. I think we can and should do better.

[RD17]

RD17 is saying we will never, ever do anything in any sport except hockey....ever. And even if we do, the Bison had better not have done it first or else they will have "cornered the market" on that particular sport. Because everything is a zero-sum game.  

Funny, that doesn't stop NDSU from having success in FB and MBB at the same time. It doesn't stop them from having success in softball (despite the same harsh climate we have to deal with). And it probably won't stop them from having VB success again someday (I don't think they'll tolerate mediocrity in that program for much longer).

I guess there is an imaginary line through Hillsboro that divides the Valley into two spheres of existence: One where everything is a zero-sum game and there are no resources to do anything about anything and another where people strive to succeed and achieve excellence in everything they do. UND is the former and NDSU is the latter.

But I guess if our fans like it that way, then who am I to judge?

You apparently missed this part of my post:

For the record, I am not bearish on all UND sports at the D-I level. I think volleyball has tremendous potential because of the availability of athletes and the fact the the Betty is a great facility for that sport. It also helps that NDSU is not what it used to be in that sport. Women's basketball also has potential because of the number of athletes in the region and the tradition of the program. I think potential in men's basketball is limited. NDSU and SDSU already have the market cornered on that sport in the region. Plus, will anyone care if UND makes the big dance as a 15 seed when the hockey playoffs are going on? I doubt it.

I clearly stated that there are sports at UND that have tremendous potential in D-I. I simply don't feel football or men's basketball are two of those sports.

NDSU does do a better job in it's other sports, no doubt about that. There are a few reasons for this. They are at or near the minimum in D-I sports requirements so there are more resources to spread around (UND should look at doing this). They have a high percentage of male students and they really don't seem to care about meeting the same prong of Title IX requirements as the rest of the schools do. They are also more than willing to act deplorably to win, like when they refused to suspend the football players involved in the petition fraud. But the biggest reason they are successful is that they give preferential status to football and then have all other programs fall in behind it. Most of the major state schools in this country that are successful in athletics operate this way. A very successful football program gives a major lift to an entire university in a way other sports cannot. It is the way things should be done at UND as well, but it will never happen because the hockey program's needs put a glass ceiling on the other sports on campus.

[RD17]

While I appreciate your argument, as it is well thought out, I simply disagree.

You seem to imply that UND has no tradition in football, and that the success the program experienced from circa 2000-2007 was some sort of anomaly due to UND being a "big fish in a small pond".  I am confident that UND will be a national championship caliber program in the not too distant future, just as they were in the 2000's, just as they were in the 90's, just as they were in the 70's, and just as the were in the 60's.  UND is among some of the all-time winningest college football programs in the country.  That is no anomaly.  The 25 conference championship banners hanging in the Alerus were not all hung during the last 7 years of their DII history. 

I agree with you that UND football faces its own institutional challenges that some of its regional peers do not have to deal with in that it is not, and likely never will be, the #1 sport on campus.  Can they succeed despite this?  I say yes, they sure did as much in the 2000's, the 90's, the 70's, the 60's.  Basketball has never been the #1 sport at NDSU at look what they've accomplished the last 8 or so years.  Football has never been the #1 sport at SDSU and look what that program has done the last 8 or so years.  SDSU had virtually the same "institutional advantage" while in DII that you say was the reason for UND's DII success, but they were perennial middle-of-pack program for their first 100 years of existence.  Then they elevate their program and have unprecedented success.   

As a football first fan here of UND, I certainly would like it if the administration poured more resources into the sport if they have any more to pour in.  But it is also wrong to say they don't invest in the program.  They footed most of the bill to make sure the Alerus put in the turf that they wanted a couple years ago.  They built a ridiculous facility for the football team to practice in in the event we get a little rain.  You mentioned the salaries of the coaching staff being amongst the top 5 of the Big Sky.  Well they were at the very bottom of the Big Sky when we joined the league, so that is another area where they have invested, and hopefully within 5 years they will be even higher.

I'm not implying at all that UND has no tradition because that obviously isn't the case. But most of that tradition occurred at the DII level and it's a whole new ballgame in DI. UND can no longer rely on being being the major state university playing in a division with mainly regional teachers' colleges. At the DI level the institutions are similar to UND and everyone is trying harder to win. In order to win big, UND must invest heavily in its program.

[RD17]

UND's support of football needs to improve. It is better than when Mussman was coaching, mainly through requests made by Bubba, but there still needs to be more improvements. Coaching salary and general athletic department coverage/support is lacking. I understand that UND can be successful at both football and hockey, but as of now, UND's support is still not evenly distributed between the two (not even close). 

Faison and the athletic department are the largest component in this issue/dynamic. Having an $100 million hockey facility is blinding to many; however, it just can't be anymore. It's time to begin focusing more on the primary sports of U.S. collegiate athletics: football and basketball. 

This is right, it will take sacrifice and heavy investment in football and men's basketball to make those programs successful. If the move to DI was made for other reasons than to do well in those two sports then UND made a big mistake. I don't think it's impossible (I would gladly say how I would do it in another post if people are interested) but all I'm saying is I don't think it's likely based on the leadership and culture currently at the school. 

[RD17]

Are you serious? Last time I checked, REA was built by Ralph Engelstad for the sole purpose of benefiting UND. That means REA, Inc. should exist to support UND, UND should not be serving REA, Inc. This is a problem I have pointed out many times on this forum and all I get is static and accusations that I am not a real fan. And if you really think we are supposed to just accept this cute little arrangement for the foreseeable future, then you are kidding yourself. If anything is dividing hockey from the other sports, it is this cute little arrangement. If REA wants to have their cute little tennis matches, concerts, circuses and basketball games, that is fine. But they exist to support UND, not "its own interests to look out for".

If the hockey program is our main revenue sport and it isn't producing enough revenue to fund our non-revenue sports and get our underperforming, potential revenue sports out of their funks (thanks to "having their own interests to look out for"), then that is a problem that needs to be solved. Or else we shouldn't be Division I. Period.

End Rant.

You and I agree on this. The way things are structured with REA Inc. is ridiculous. UND should petition the state to allow it to take over full control of the arena since it's proven that it's not a financial drain on the university (isn't that the reason UND wasn't allowed full control from the beginning?).