Tear it down

[westsidesioux]

I guess I still fail to see what President Kelley has done wrong in all of this. He was stepping into a crappy situation when he took the job in '08 and hasn't done anything about retiring the logo that hasn't been directed upon him. When you have orders from the SBoHE, and they are your bosses, you listen to them, and you do your job. He's not thrilled about these logo bills in the state legislature because they do more harm than good. This is nothing but political grandstanding on the part of Al Carlson. Would have loved to have seen this bill 3 years ago. The people that are all pissed off about never seeing Kelley at a Sioux hockey game with an indian head logo on crack me up too. So what? We have like 3 logos....wear whatever damn logo you want....if he's standing up singing the rouser when Minnesota is in town, then I'll want him fired.

[Fetch]

He has been a perfect yes man for the State board - I bet he even rolls over & loves a belly rub - It's this - which way the wind blows State Board of Higher Education that needs to be Neutered or Spade - It's time for the Legislature & Gov. to put the leash on & get some control back & do the will of the people

If this was Wisconsin I wonder how big the protests would be in Madison ? If PETA could convince their State board that Badgers were being abused ? ............

[The Sicatoka]

....if he's standing up singing the rouser when Minnesota is in town, then I'll want him fired.

I would too, but haven't figured out of what calibre cannon for that situation.

[The Sicatoka]

... that Badgers were being abused ? ............

They were, ... Friday night by Gophers.

[Chewey]

I guess I still fail to see what President Kelley has done wrong in all of this. He was stepping into a crappy situation when he took the job in '08 and hasn't done anything about retiring the logo that hasn't been directed upon him. When you have orders from the SBoHE, and they are your bosses, you listen to them, and you do your job. He's not thrilled about these logo bills in the state legislature because they do more harm than good. This is nothing but political grandstanding on the part of Al Carlson. Would have loved to have seen this bill 3 years ago. The people that are all pissed off about never seeing Kelley at a Sioux hockey game with an indian head logo on crack me up too. So what? We have like 3 logos....wear whatever damn logo you want....if he's standing up singing the rouser when Minnesota is in town, then I'll want him fired.

Enough of this sort of tripe. This whole "my hands have been tied by the SBoHE" thing is really tiresome. When the SBoHE was trying to get a vote on the nickname and when it itself expressed favor for retaining the name by trying to get a vote, where was he? Did he ever conclude, "hey, most of the alums like the nickname and logo and the SBoHE is trying to get tribal approval" so I should speak out in favor of retaining the nickname? Has he ever done anything in support of the nickname and logo? No. He was chosen, I think, because he had no ties to UND or to the state or to the alumni. His position on the nickname and logo has always been, at the very least, silent and willing acquiescence as for their retirement. I am willing to bet that he's been, in conjunction with the anti-nicknamer faculty and administrators, very active behind the scenes working for their retirement. He should be fired as he has no ear or respect for the alumni. The SBoHE has done a massively terrible and irresponsible job of handling all of this but they at least tried to work with SR and Kelley was simply silent and said silence spoke volumes.

[Rick]

I guess I still fail to see what President Kelley has done wrong in all of this. He was stepping into a crappy situation when he took the job in '08 and hasn't done anything about retiring the logo that hasn't been directed upon him. When you have orders from the SBoHE, and they are your bosses, you listen to them, and you do your job. He's not thrilled about these logo bills in the state legislature because they do more harm than good. This is nothing but political grandstanding on the part of Al Carlson. Would have loved to have seen this bill 3 years ago. The people that are all pissed off about never seeing Kelley at a Sioux hockey game with an indian head logo on crack me up too. So what? We have like 3 logos....wear whatever damn logo you want....if he's standing up singing the rouser when Minnesota is in town, then I'll want him fired.

Appreciate your input Marcia.

[Rick]

Enough of this sort of tripe. This whole "my hands have been tied by the SBoHE" thing is really tiresome. When the SBoHE was trying to get a vote on the nickname and when it itself expressed favor for retaining the name by trying to get a vote, where was he? Did he ever conclude, "hey, most of the alums like the nickname and logo and the SBoHE is trying to get tribal approval" so I should speak out in favor of retaining the nickname? Has he ever done anything in support of the nickname and logo? No. He was chosen, I think, because he had no ties to UND or to the state or to the alumni. His position on the nickname and logo has always been, at the very least, silent and willing acquiescence as for their retirement. I am willing to bet that he's been, in conjunction with the anti-nicknamer faculty and administrators, very active behind the scenes working for their retirement. He should be fired as he has no ear or respect for the alumni. The SBoHE has done a massively terrible and irresponsible job of handling all of this but they at least tried to work with SR and Kelley was simply silent and said silence spoke volumes.

I bet there are a few people like GF Herald Editor Mike Jacobs, Leigh Jenoette, RHHiT and others whe lobbied quite hard for ROK.

Remember when Chris Matthews from MSNBC admitted that he gets a tingly feeling up and down his leg whenever he heard Barack Obama talk? Well, I suspect that Mike Jacobs gets the same feeling when he listens to Kelley.

[The Whistler]

I am one of those hockey types you are taking about. I think you should have all the facts. UND will not host another NCAA regional because of the NCAA's rule for neutral sites, so UND won't be missing out on any money through the ralph for either hockey or basketball. Question is with football - how much does the Alerus get vs UND?

Thank you for injecting reality into the conversation.

[Siouxbooster#33]

I really do hate the football versus hockey discussion. What a petty waste of energy. The issue is the Sioux name. The ramifications for UND would not be wholesale banning of any and all NCAA post-season games at UND's home fields, but rather (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) the ban on post-season games would be placed on facilities that display the allegedly insulting logo and name. Alerus Center has no logo issues.

Furthermore, even if -- IF -- the NCAA sanction is more broad, then how cheaply are we selling our name and traditions? NCAA hockey has moved away from on-campus sites for its NCAA Regionals. And even when the regionals were allowed to be hosted on campus, UND only hosted once, so that even if NCAA Hockey returned to on-campus hosting sites, UND would be foregoing a once-in-ten-years opportunity. Baseball has super-regionals, and UND's facilitiy would never host. Basketball has the NCAA tourney, and there are no on-campus sites. Swimming and diving have more centralized regionals. So if -- IF -- the NCAA sanctions played out in the worst possible manner, the only varsity program potentially hurt would be football. Accordingly, our entire university population, alumni, fans, friends, and supporters would sell off our beloved name (and sell out the huge number of Native supporters) for the possiblity -- POSSIBILITY -- of missing a potential home football game.

I love the football program. I have season seats. I want to win the Big Sky every year and play meaningful D-I playoff games before a packed Alerus house. I am a realist, and I cannot see the Sioux hosting a home playoff game in the next 3-4 years. I would hope that the Univeristy and AD might negotiate a softening of the restrictions during that time. Or get a football waiver. Or sign an ancillary agreement.

I am disgusted, frankly, with my fellow Sioux fans and nickname supporters who want to throw up their hands in surrender. I am sadened, actually, by the lack of fight. Have they worn us down? Have the bland political hacks like Kelly, Faisson, the professors, the brown-nosing student sentate, the NCAA, His Horse is Thunder, the Bison dancing on our grave ---- have they worn us all down? Are we too tired to fight, too tired to press for better outcomes, too tired to push for better resolutions, too tired to push our leaders? Perhaps we are.

And frankly, if we are so easily exhausted, and so cheaply sold, and so unwilling to fight -- then we don't deserve the name anyhow. We don't deserve to be Fighting Sioux. Might just as well call us the Eagles, or the Wind, or the Force of the North. Something bland. Boring. Something without a soul, without a spirit.

"The soul fights on. Even when the body weakens, and the enemy surrounds, and the trumpets call out from the heavens declaring our demise. Still the soul fights on. And in fighting such battles, victory is gained though only defeat seemed possible." Gen. Bernard Montgomery, address to his troops upon taking over the desert forces in Egypt at El Alamein.

Kelly is a typical left-leaning hack. Did you EXPECT him to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the limp-spined political class to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the anti-athletic, leftist professors to fight your battle for you?

[Chewey]

I really do hate the football versus hockey discussion. What a petty waste of energy. The issue is the Sioux name. The ramifications for UND would not be wholesale banning of any and all NCAA post-season games at UND's home fields, but rather (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) the ban on post-season games would be placed on facilities that display the allegedly insulting logo and name. Alerus Center has no logo issues.

Furthermore, even if -- IF -- the NCAA sanction is more broad, then how cheaply are we selling our name and traditions? NCAA hockey has moved away from on-campus sites for its NCAA Regionals. And even when the regionals were allowed to be hosted on campus, UND only hosted once, so that even if NCAA Hockey returned to on-campus hosting sites, UND would be foregoing a once-in-ten-years opportunity. Baseball has super-regionals, and UND's facilitiy would never host. Basketball has the NCAA tourney, and there are no on-campus sites. Swimming and diving have more centralized regionals. So if -- IF -- the NCAA sanctions played out in the worst possible manner, the only varsity program potentially hurt would be football. Accordingly, our entire university population, alumni, fans, friends, and supporters would sell off our beloved name (and sell out the huge number of Native supporters) for the possiblity -- POSSIBILITY -- of missing a potential home football game.

I love the football program. I have season seats. I want to win the Big Sky every year and play meaningful D-I playoff games before a packed Alerus house. I am a realist, and I cannot see the Sioux hosting a home playoff game in the next 3-4 years. I would hope that the Univeristy and AD might negotiate a softening of the restrictions during that time. Or get a football waiver. Or sign an ancillary agreement.

I am disgusted, frankly, with my fellow Sioux fans and nickname supporters who want to throw up their hands in surrender. I am sadened, actually, by the lack of fight. Have they worn us down? Have the bland political hacks like Kelly, Faisson, the professors, the brown-nosing student sentate, the NCAA, His Horse is Thunder, the Bison dancing on our grave ---- have they worn us all down? Are we too tired to fight, too tired to press for better outcomes, too tired to push for better resolutions, too tired to push our leaders? Perhaps we are.

And frankly, if we are so easily exhausted, and so cheaply sold, and so unwilling to fight -- then we don't deserve the name anyhow. We don't deserve to be Fighting Sioux. Might just as well call us the Eagles, or the Wind, or the Force of the North. Something bland. Boring. Something without a soul, without a spirit.

"The soul fights on. Even when the body weakens, and the enemy surrounds, and the trumpets call out from the heavens declaring our demise. Still the soul fights on. And in fighting such battles, victory is gained though only defeat seemed possible." Gen. Bernard Montgomery, address to his troops upon taking over the desert forces in Egypt at El Alamein.

Kelly is a typical left-leaning hack. Did you EXPECT him to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the limp-spined political class to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the anti-athletic, leftist professors to fight your battle for you?

Very good post!!!!!

[Old Time Hockey]

I am disgusted, frankly, with my fellow Sioux fans and nickname supporters who want to throw up their hands in surrender. I am sadened, actually, by the lack of fight. Have they worn us down? Have the bland political hacks like Kelly, Faisson, the professors, the brown-nosing student sentate, the NCAA, His Horse is Thunder, the Bison dancing on our grave ---- have they worn us all down? Are we too tired to fight, too tired to press for better outcomes, too tired to push for better resolutions, too tired to push our leaders? Perhaps we are.

And frankly, if we are so easily exhausted, and so cheaply sold, and so unwilling to fight -- then we don't deserve the name anyhow. We don't deserve to be Fighting Sioux. Might just as well call us the Eagles, or the Wind, or the Force of the North. Something bland. Boring. Something without a soul, without a spirit.

Kelly is a typical left-leaning hack. Did you EXPECT him to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the limp-spined political class to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the anti-athletic, leftist professors to fight your battle for you?

Spot on! Sadly, this quitter mentality has been going on here for a long time.

[The Sicatoka]

The ramifications for UND would not be wholesale banning of any and all NCAA post-season games at UND's home fields, but rather (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) the ban on post-season games would be placed on facilities that display the allegedly insulting logo and name. Alerus Center has no logo issues.

1. It says "Sioux" in the endzones of Alerus Center. That is the same as a logo in the eyes of the NCAA.

2. The sanctions are against the school, not its facilities. As it stands now, UND, if it keeps "Sioux", would not be allowed to host even if they spraypainted the end zones green* in The Al.

3. The net effect would be wholesale banning from UND's home fields as UND would not be allowed to host as the "Sioux".

* comment here about turf being same as school colors ala Boise State and EWU.

[mksioux]

I really do hate the football versus hockey discussion. What a petty waste of energy. The issue is the Sioux name. The ramifications for UND would not be wholesale banning of any and all NCAA post-season games at UND's home fields, but rather (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) the ban on post-season games would be placed on facilities that display the allegedly insulting logo and name. Alerus Center has no logo issues.

You are simply wrong. Under NCAA sanctions, UND would not be able to host any NCAA post-season game or match regardless of which venue it would be held at. Football would not be able to host any playoff games under NCAA sanctions regardless of whether any Sioux references exist in the Alerus Center.

Furthermore, even if -- IF -- the NCAA sanction is more broad, then how cheaply are we selling our name and traditions? NCAA hockey has moved away from on-campus sites for its NCAA Regionals. And even when the regionals were allowed to be hosted on campus, UND only hosted once, so that even if NCAA Hockey returned to on-campus hosting sites, UND would be foregoing a once-in-ten-years opportunity. Baseball has super-regionals, and UND's facilitiy would never host. Basketball has the NCAA tourney, and there are no on-campus sites. Swimming and diving have more centralized regionals. So if -- IF -- the NCAA sanctions played out in the worst possible manner, the only varsity program potentially hurt would be football. Accordingly, our entire university population, alumni, fans, friends, and supporters would sell off our beloved name (and sell out the huge number of Native supporters) for the possiblity -- POSSIBILITY -- of missing a potential home football game.

I'm not an expert in non-revenue sports, but I think you are right. I don't think the post-season ban on the Sioux name and logo on uniforms is worth dropping the nickname. So really, what it all boils down to is football playoffs. Is the Sioux nickname worth the football program operating under a scneario where it can never host playoff games?

I love the football program. I have season seats. I want to win the Big Sky every year and play meaningful D-I playoff games before a packed Alerus house. I am a realist, and I cannot see the Sioux hosting a home playoff game in the next 3-4 years. I would hope that the Univeristy and AD might negotiate a softening of the restrictions during that time. Or get a football waiver. Or sign an ancillary agreement.

Obviously if UND could get a "football waiver" or modify the settlement agreement, I'd be fully with you. I just don't see the NCAA doing that. But those discussions should be going on right now.

I am disgusted, frankly, with my fellow Sioux fans and nickname supporters who want to throw up their hands in surrender. I am sadened, actually, by the lack of fight. Have they worn us down? Have the bland political hacks like Kelly, Faisson, the professors, the brown-nosing student sentate, the NCAA, His Horse is Thunder, the Bison dancing on our grave ---- have they worn us all down? Are we too tired to fight, too tired to press for better outcomes, too tired to push for better resolutions, too tired to push our leaders? Perhaps we are.

And frankly, if we are so easily exhausted, and so cheaply sold, and so unwilling to fight -- then we don't deserve the name anyhow. We don't deserve to be Fighting Sioux. Might just as well call us the Eagles, or the Wind, or the Force of the North. Something bland. Boring. Something without a soul, without a spirit.

"The soul fights on. Even when the body weakens, and the enemy surrounds, and the trumpets call out from the heavens declaring our demise. Still the soul fights on. And in fighting such battles, victory is gained though only defeat seemed possible." Gen. Bernard Montgomery, address to his troops upon taking over the desert forces in Egypt at El Alamein.

Kelly is a typical left-leaning hack. Did you EXPECT him to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the limp-spined political class to fight your battle for you? Did you expect the anti-athletic, leftist professors to fight your battle for you?

I love your passion. The only thing I disagree with you on is the practical consequences of going forward with the Sioux nickname. I believe not having the chance of hosting a playoff game would really harm the football program. I fully expect the UND football program to be making deep playoff runs in a few years. That is extremely difficult without being able to host playoff games. And that fact will be used against UND in recruiting. If there was a way to ensure that the football team could retain the eligibility to host playoff games, I'd be all for keeping the nickname. I am not against working with the NCAA or applying political pressure against the NCAA. Unfortuantely, as I've said in other threads, I don't believe a legal challenge will get anywhere due to the settlement agreement.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm surprised more people haven't latched onto this.

[Old Time Hockey]

I'm not an expert in non-revenue sports, but I think you are right. I don't think the post-season ban on the Sioux name and logo on uniforms is worth dropping the nickname. So really, what it all boils down to is football playoffs. Is the Sioux nickname worth the football program operating under a scneario where it can never host playoff games?

How bout the football program makes the jump to Div 1-A? Then we would never have to have a conference (ie Notre Dame) and would never have to worry about dropping the nickname for the playoffs!

[mksioux]

I'm surprised more people haven't latched onto this.

Kelley needs to figure it out. Give us a new Audi A8 or big Mercedes, even the 400 HP Chevy Camaro, to replace our Cadillac of monikers and you might solve that issue. But waiting until 2015 is just going to make "having no ride" only make us miss the Caddy more and more. (Or as I've said, pick a new name immediately, to be in place when we enter the Big Sky: Control what is yours to control.)

One more note: From Ed Schafer's statement clearly Kelley has no A to B plan. Kelley is trying to lead from A to abyss. That's not leadership, that's failureship. Kelley doesn't understand: Control what is yours to control. Leading from A to abyss is not control.

I'm not buying into the nickname/car comparison. A new nickname and logo could not possibly stand up to the existing nickname and logo. There simply is no other option out there that could equal what we have right now. And I think a lot of alumni (including me) would rather have no nickname than a new nickname and Kelley is just moving slowly for that reason. He is probably thinking to let the cut heal a bit before pouring on the salt.

[mksioux]

How bout the football program makes the jump to Div 1-A? Then we would never have to have a conference (ie Notre Dame) and would never have to worry about dropping the nickname for the playoffs!

If UND were DI-FBS, then I personally would be in favor of retaining the nickname despite the NCAA sanctions. If that were the case, the sanctions would not have enough teeth to justify dropping the nickname. But UND would still need to find a conference. Unlike a huge program like Notre Dame, UND would not have the ability of putting together a full out-of-conference FBS schedule. (not to mention, all the other sports would still need a conference as well)

[The Sicatoka]

I'm not buying into the nickname/car comparison. A new nickname and logo could not possibly stand up to the existing nickname and logo. There simply is no other option out there that could equal what we have right now. And I think a lot of alumni (including me) would rather have no nickname than a new nickname and Kelley is just moving slowly for that reason. He is probably thinking to let the cut heal a bit before pouring on the salt.

Like Schafer says, as long as there's no new option to move to the old one will be clung to.

[Goon]

I'm not buying into the nickname/car comparison. A new nickname and logo could not possibly stand up to the existing nickname and logo. There simply is no other option out there that could equal what we have right now. And I think a lot of alumni (including me) would rather have no nickname than a new nickname and Kelley is just moving slowly for that reason. He is probably thinking to let the cut heal a bit before pouring on the salt.

BINGO!!!

[GeauxSioux]

UND Asks for More Time to Rid Arena of Sioux Symbols

Kelley indicated Friday that his request was receiving the NCAA's consideration. He said the additional time could help reduce costs associated with the alterations and also give the university time to deal with uncertainty caused by the Legislature

[ScottM]

Some members, including American Indian representatives, argued that UND needs to move faster on this front to end the distraction and divisiveness the debate has created.

Um, Earth to Bedwetters: This "divisiveness" is not going away anytime soon. Regardless of how the name/logo mess eventually shakes out.