Division 1 Transition: Precursor for Perennial Mediocrity?

[breakin face]

I hate to come in here breaking face like this but speaking as a long time UND fan I feel this move to Division 1 will cripple our football program. I'm not saying we'll get to an Idaho State level but I wouldn't be suprised to see 4-7, 5-6 type records for the years to come. Let's look at the facts, recruiting is taking a major hit in this transition. Why would a football player choose to come to a school that blatantly supports hockey over football when he can go one hour down the road to NDSU where football is "God"? If the recruiting isn't up to snuff the wins aren't going to follow. I may be seeing this far too pessimistically but what would draw football recruits to UND right now? Is it the lack of playoff eligibility, the 7500 person crowds, the losses to NAIA schools, the Alerus Center? Personally I don't see us as an attractive football school right now, for our sake I hope I'm wrong but until then pick up the pieces.......of your broken face!!!!!!!

[Shawn-O]

I hate to come in here breaking face like this but speaking as a long time UND fan I feel this move to Division 1 will cripple our football program. I'm not saying we'll get to an Idaho State level but I wouldn't be suprised to see 4-7, 5-6 type records for the years to come. Let's look at the facts, recruiting is taking a major hit in this transition. Why would a football player choose to come to a school that blatantly supports hockey over football when he can go one hour down the road to NDSU where football is "God"? If the recruiting isn't up to snuff the wins aren't going to follow. I may be seeing this far too pessimistically but what would draw football recruits to UND right now? Is it the lack of playoff eligibility, the 7500 person crowds, the losses to NAIA schools, the Alerus Center? Personally I don't see us as an attractive football school right now, for our sake I hope I'm wrong but until then pick up the pieces.......of your broken face!!!!!!!

Hakstol, O'Reilly, and Buschemi wouldn't appreciate loser talk like this.

[Siouxper Sized]

The great hockey mind should stick with what he knows best. First of all, do you really think that NDSU has the upper hand in recruiting after the season they have put together? It's obvious that their two 10-1 seasons during transition didn't help with their recruiting either. They had better teams when they started the transition(which were primarily division II recruits by the way) than they do now. I know this post is about DI, but before the transition, UND consistenly had better football teams than NDSU. We defeated them 9 of the last 11 times we played them before they ran for cover in DI and we made the mistake of not chasing them. And during that time, guess what.......UND hockey had more support than football. If you think that NDSU is going to pull in better recruits this year by using their dusty championship trophies they paid for decades ago and the Fargo Barn, which has yet to EVER host a playoff game than you are wrong, but you can be damn sure that they will try.

Coach Mussman and the boys know they have to hit the road hard in December to recruit players, but the 2010 recruits will realize that playing time early in their careers is a strong possibility, and they will be playoff eligible by the time they are sophmores if they are redshirted. The new recruits will also like UND's upcoming schedules that include some good competition. The Alerus Center is a recruiting tool as well! Have you been to any of these FCS stadiums? Besides the Fargo Barn, which I look at as being decent, what other FCS stadium in the north central part of the US can hold 13,000 people and has a 4 star hotel attached to it? As far as the crowds, better game time scheduling and a couple thursday games might help, but their is no doubt that better teams bring in bigger crowds. And don't compare NDSU, which has twice the population to draw from with us!

I am sick of everyone being so damn pessemistic of UND's 2009 season. Everyone was proud of how we played Texas Tech. You can bet money that they didn't expect to have their starters in at the end of the game. The rest of our victories came by a group of overachieving kids with big hearts, and lets be honest, we have been battling injuries all year. As far as NAIA Sioux Falls, who cares!!! They were a good well coached and disciplined team that could have beaten alot of FCS teams! They have only lost 3 games in the last 3 years, and NAIA is a breeding ground for DII and Iaa stud rejects that could never meet NCAA standards. And besides, ask SDSU players now if their DIII losses in transition affected their decision to go there.........

Everyone would love to imagine how much better we would be if we had Chappel, Murray, Stroup and Trenbeath, but besides Trenbeath, the others took care of themselves. Have we lost to some teams that we shouldn't have, yes! But keep in mind that we are still a DII team. Can anyone name more than one or two players that are actually contributing right now for the Sioux that are a direct result of our transition?............Just because you are paying DII recruits more money doesnt mean that you have a full blown FCS team. Give Coach Mussman, who is a good recruiter, some time to put together his team! There is no doubt that the transition is and will continue to be difficult, but 2012 is the goal, and that is when we need to be firing on all cylinders!

Breakin Face, if you are a true Sioux fan, you would be optimistic of every program, not just hockey!

Things will get better!

[MplsBison]

You can't gauge it based on this season. You have to look at the potential.

[JacksonW]

I hate to come in here breaking face like this but speaking as a long time UND fan I feel this move to Division 1 will cripple our football program. I'm not saying we'll get to an Idaho State level but I wouldn't be suprised to see 4-7, 5-6 type records for the years to come. Let's look at the facts, recruiting is taking a major hit in this transition. Why would a football player choose to come to a school that blatantly supports hockey over football when he can go one hour down the road to NDSU where football is "God"? If the recruiting isn't up to snuff the wins aren't going to follow. I may be seeing this far too pessimistically but what would draw football recruits to UND right now? Is it the lack of playoff eligibility, the 7500 person crowds, the losses to NAIA schools, the Alerus Center? Personally I don't see us as an attractive football school right now, for our sake I hope I'm wrong but until then pick up the pieces.......of your broken face!!!!!!!

Recruiting is much more involved than I want to play for a certain team for a single reason. Recruits look at it much differently than fans.

School matters for alot of kids (and parents), especially for kids who know that the NFL payday is a longest of longshots.

Connecting with recruiters on a personal level is significant.

Who offers the most first is bigger than most people realize, kids want to be wanted.

Teams that evaluate well and use time(attention) and money(scholarships) well, will outrecruit many stadiums and fanbases.

See SDSU for proof in this part of the country.

You aren't recruiting against Texas or Florida or USC for players.

I do believe however that there may not be enough population and qualified players for 4 upper echelon D-1AA teams in area, which makes recruiting all that more difficult and spread out geographically, less time seeing and talking to kids in person, more tape and phone calls. Can't drive to Chicago Friday night to watch a game like you can to Detroit Lakes and have people(parents) notice you in bleachers and know who you are there to watch.

[mksioux]

I

[star2city]

I hate to come in here breaking face like this but speaking as a long time UND fan I feel this move to Division 1 will cripple our football program. I'm not saying we'll get to an Idaho State level but I wouldn't be suprised to see 4-7, 5-6 type records for the years to come. Let's look at the facts, recruiting is taking a major hit in this transition.

The goals in DII and in FCS are the playoffs. In DII, a record of 9-2 wouldn't even guarantee a playoff berth. In FCS, odds are with an 8-3 record that you would be in. Even at 7-4 it's possible. There has to be a recalibration of the significance of W-L records as far as success.

[star2city]

Coach Mussman and the boys know they have to hit the road hard in December to recruit players, but the 2010 recruits will realize that playing time early in their careers is a strong possibility, and they will be playoff eligible by the time they are sophmores if they are redshirted. The new recruits will also like UND's upcoming schedules that include some good competition. The Alerus Center is a recruiting tool as well! Have you been to any of these FCS stadiums? Besides the Fargo Barn, which I look at as being decent, what other FCS stadium in the north central part of the US can hold 13,000 people and has a 4 star hotel attached to it? As far as the crowds, better game time scheduling and a couple thursday games might help, but their is no doubt that better teams bring in bigger crowds. And don't compare NDSU, which has twice the population to draw from with us!

Great Post!

Practically any coach or athletic staff that visits that Alerus Center for the first time are practically blown away by UND's facilities. Stony Brook's radio crew (including the SID) had there jaws open the whole game, practically. There's only a few programs that really have stand out facilities: Montana, Appy State, Texas St (soon), James Madison. The vast majority have major work to do: SDSU's Coughlin-Alumni or SIU's old stadium do not at all reflect well on those two schools, but yet they are winning.

[Irish]

UND over the years has had several coaches who put them on track - Gene Murphy and Roger Thomas for example (I'm not forgetting Lennon, but he took over a team that was over the hump). We need one now. Whether Mussman is that coach remains to be seen. After looking at the roster, I'm stuinned to see the poor classes in our Junior and Senior groups. We have 18 seniors and play like we have 18 true freshmen. Keys - great recruiting, pulling out some tough games, winning a big one. In fairness, he needs a couple more years. I am having a tough internal battle - in my head I know it's too early to give up on Mussman, but after watching the crapfest that was the Sioux Falls game, emotionally, I'm still pissed. Besides recruiting, he must make better game plans and game day adjsutments. We need a much better effort by the coaches and team to salvage this season - Next year remains to be seen. When we start playing better, attendance will take care of itself. We also need a real conference.

[RD17]

If you do a quick search and look at the thread orginator's other posts in regard to football, they all follow the same tired 'sky is falling' theme. It's almost as if he/she would like to see the football program fail. Interesting.

The following is some food for thought that I put together to help calm the masses:

In two weeks SDSU will host Southern Illinois, and with both teams unbeaten in the league, the MVFC title will be on the line. The Salukis lost their starting QB for the season last Saturday and will be playing a freshman from here on out, so I like SDSU's chances. Win or lose against SIU, SDSU will likely become the first team from the Dakotas to qualify for the FCS playoffs.

Keep in mind that when SDSU entered DI they were a middle of the pack NCC program... down the list after UND, NDSU, UNO, and UNC... who had just left the year prior for DI. SDSU's last NCC title was in 1963, it's last (and only) D-II playoff appearance in 1979 and the Jacks managed 8 or more wins in a season just twice in their final 40 years in D-II.

2004 (first year of transition): Went 6-5 with three D-II wins. Only win over a non-transitioning FCS team was 31-24 over Southern. Only 5200 showed up on a 78 degree September evening to see SDSU beat Western Oregon. Lost 52-0 to Cal Davis and 63-7 to Georgia Southern. Late in 2004 SDSU (along with NDSU) got the ultimate kick in the pants when the Big Sky Conference rejected them in favor of Northern Colorado.

2005: Went 6-5 with four FCS wins, but just one (Southern Utah) was against a non-transitioning FCS scholarship program (by comparision UND has two such wins already this year). Started the season 2-3 capped by a 42-12 road loss to Texas State. Moved a conference game against Cal Davis to Sioux Falls but it only drew 7200 fans. SDSU's final three home games of the 2005 season (all against FCS opponents) drew a combined 10,031 fans, including just 1881 to see former NCC team Northern Colorado in the season finale.

2006: Disaster strikes immediately with a 17-3 loss to D-III Wisconsin-LaCrosse (a much worse defeat than UND losing to USF) and SDSU opens the season 0-3 including a 36-7 pounding at the hands of Montana. The Jacks also lost 27-17 to UNI during that stretch, just a couple of weeks after a D-II UND team had beaten the Panthers. SDSU later goes on a five game winning streak, with an impressive three wins against non-transitioning FCS teams. But on a beautiful 52 degree day in early November, just 4211 fans show up to see if SDSU (tied for first in the GWFC) can get its first 6-game winning streak since 1963 against NAIA William Penn. SDSU finished 7-4, losing the GWFC title to NDSU in the season finale.

2007: SDSU again starts the season 0-3, with all three losses to future MVFC mates. But the Jacks turn it around, winning five of their next six games, all against FCS competion. Unfortunately, just 3317 fans show up on a 54 degree November day to see SDSU rally to beat SUU and stay unbeaten in the conference. The Jacks knock off NDSU the following week before a packed house in Brookings to win their first league title in 44 years.

2008: The Jacks open the season with a 44-17 loss to a bad Iowa State team. Despite being through the transition, ISU is the school's first FBS opponent. SDSU starts off the season with a 3-4 record and just 8311 fans show up to see a highly ranked Cal Poly team beat the Jacks 42-28 in mid-October. Then, despite the fact that SDSU has a winning record in the MVFC, just 9393 fans combined show up to watch the Jacks beat Missouri State and Illinois State in back to back weeks in early November. SDSU ends the season 7-5, losing by a FG to conference champ SIU and beating the Bison in Fargo.

2009: As noted above, SDSU is 6-1 overall (undefeated in the MVFC), a top 10 FCS team, and has an average attendance of 14,000. They have now won three straight against NDSU and appear to have a program built to succeed over the long term.

Of course there were many highlights to SDSU's transition, like some big crowds and some big wins. But I brought up mainly the lowlights just to show how perserverance and having a long-range plan can overcome many obstacles. There were bad crowds, bad losses, bad schedules, conference uncertainty, lack of money, losing out on recruits, etc. but SDSU got to this point by sticking to a plan and staying the course.

People will say UND is a hockey school, but SDSU is definitely a basketball school.

People will say UND can't possibly recruit because of the competition. UND went into SD last year and took two recruits that SDSU wanted!

SDSU is just 60 miles from Sioux Falls, but UND is just 75 miles from Fargo (and don't let anyone try to tell you that their aren't a lot of Sioux fans in Fargo).

UND has a national TV package. Does SDSU even have games televised locally?

UND had a storied tradition as a D-II program. SDSU had a tradition of mediocrity.

UND is bigger, a more renowned school, has a larger metro area and much better athletic facilities.

UND immediately met the FCS scholarship limit. It was several years into the transition before SDSU could provide 63 scholarships.

Despite the fact that SDSU has been D-I for six years now, Pat Behrns at UNO will tell you that this is the first year that he began to lose recruits he wanted to SDSU.

There are no doubt freshman that are redshirting that could be helping UND on the field right now. Mussman could have done what Bohl did this year and play several true freshman out of desperation. But would that get UND to where it wants to be in 2012? Again, stay the course.

[the green team]

RD 17-- Well put and well laid out. This is only the beginning, the transition years can and most certainly will be a roller coaster ride-- a ride that SDSU can say they have been on... but they stayed the course, and this year it's paying dividends.

The 1st poster on this thread indeed would, I believe encourage us all to jump off what he deems a sinking ship when really we've barely departed for our voyage. I've never understood why, and for the most part there seems to be few, but it would seem that some hockey fans would like all the other sports at UND fail-- except for hockey. I know of 2 friends specifically who actually were dissapointed when we won a D2 football title because in their opinion, it upstaged hockey. Now maybe people don't realize that before that national title in hockey in 1980, UND's basketball was a bigger draw, and when hockey went in the tank in the late 80's and early 90's and basketball was going to the elite 8--it was the bigger draw. My argument is that what ever program is winning is going to draw. (Let's face it there are a lot of front runner bandwagon fans in these parts) Right now we're a hockey school (and that's great) and as long as we continue to have success we will always be one. But if our other programs become consistent winners, we won't just be a hockey school we will be a great sports school, and I don't see what's so threatening about that concept.

[The Walrus]

Like I said before...RD17 is the man, he does this stuff for a living, GREAT Perspective......Thank You

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Great writeup RD17.

[star2city]

If you do a quick search and look at the thread orginator's other posts in regard to football, they all follow the same tired 'sky is falling' theme. It's almost as if he/she would like to see the football program fail. Interesting.

The following is some food for thought that I put together to help calm the masses:

In two weeks SDSU will host Southern Illinois, and with both teams unbeaten in the league, the MVFC title will be on the line. The Salukis lost their starting QB for the season last Saturday and will be playing a freshman from here on out, so I like SDSU's chances. Win or lose against SIU, SDSU will likely become the first team from the Dakotas to qualify for the FCS playoffs.

Keep in mind that when SDSU entered DI they were a middle of the pack NCC program... down the list after UND, NDSU, UNO, and UNC... who had just left the year prior for DI. SDSU's last NCC title was in 1963, it's last (and only) D-II playoff appearance in 1979 and the Jacks managed 8 or more wins in a season just twice in their final 40 years in D-II.

2004 (first year of transition): Went 6-5 with three D-II wins. Only win over a non-transitioning FCS team was 31-24 over Southern. Only 5200 showed up on a 78 degree September evening to see SDSU beat Western Oregon. Lost 52-0 to Cal Davis and 63-7 to Georgia Southern. Late in 2004 SDSU (along with NDSU) got the ultimate kick in the pants when the Big Sky Conference rejected them in favor of Northern Colorado.

2005: Went 6-5 with four FCS wins, but just one (Southern Utah) was against a non-transitioning FCS scholarship program (by comparision UND has two such wins already this year). Started the season 2-3 capped by a 42-12 road loss to Texas State. Moved a conference game against Cal Davis to Sioux Falls but it only drew 7200 fans. SDSU's final three home games of the 2005 season (all against FCS opponents) drew a combined 10,031 fans, including just 1881 to see former NCC team Northern Colorado in the season finale.

2006: Disaster strikes immediately with a 17-3 loss to D-III Wisconsin-LaCrosse (a much worse defeat than UND losing to USF) and SDSU opens the season 0-3 including a 36-7 pounding at the hands of Montana. The Jacks also lost 27-17 to UNI during that stretch, just a couple of weeks after a D-II UND team had beaten the Panthers. SDSU later goes on a five game winning streak, with an impressive three wins against non-transitioning FCS teams. But on a beautiful 52 degree day in early November, just 4211 fans show up to see if SDSU (tied for first in the GWFC) can get its first 6-game winning streak since 1963 against NAIA William Penn. SDSU finished 7-4, losing the GWFC title to NDSU in the season finale.

2007: SDSU again starts the season 0-3, with all three losses to future MVFC mates. But the Jacks turn it around, winning five of their next six games, all against FCS competion. Unfortunately, just 3317 fans show up on a 54 degree November day to see SDSU rally to beat SUU and stay unbeaten in the conference. The Jacks knock off NDSU the following week before a packed house in Brookings to win their first league title in 44 years.

2008: The Jacks open the season with a 44-17 loss to a bad Iowa State team. Despite being through the transition, ISU is the school's first FBS opponent. SDSU starts off the season with a 3-4 record and just 8311 fans show up to see a highly ranked Cal Poly team beat the Jacks 42-28 in mid-October. Then, despite the fact that SDSU has a winning record in the MVFC, just 9393 fans combined show up to watch the Jacks beat Missouri State and Illinois State in back to back weeks in early November. SDSU ends the season 7-5, losing by a FG to conference champ SIU and beating the Bison in Fargo.

2009: As noted above, SDSU is 6-1 overall (undefeated in the MVFC), a top 10 FCS team, and has an average attendance of 14,000. They have now won three straight against NDSU and appear to have a program built to succeed over the long term.

Of course there were many highlights to SDSU's transition, like some big crowds and some big wins. But I brought up mainly the lowlights just to show how perserverance and having a long-range plan can overcome many obstacles. There were bad crowds, bad losses, bad schedules, conference uncertainty, lack of money, losing out on recruits, etc. but SDSU got to this point by sticking to a plan and staying the course.

People will say UND is a hockey school, but SDSU is definitely a basketball school.

People will say UND can't possibly recruit because of the competition. UND went into SD last year and took two recruits that SDSU wanted!

SDSU is just 60 miles from Sioux Falls, but UND is just 75 miles from Fargo (and don't let anyone try to tell you that their aren't a lot of Sioux fans in Fargo).

UND has a national TV package. Does SDSU even have games televised locally?

UND had a storied tradition as a D-II program. SDSU had a tradition of mediocrity.

UND is bigger, a more renowned school, has a larger metro area and much better athletic facilities.

UND immediately met the FCS scholarship limit. It was several years into the transition before SDSU could provide 63 scholarships.

Despite the fact that SDSU has been D-I for six years now, Pat Behrns at UNO will tell you that this is the first year that he began to lose recruits he wanted to SDSU.

There are no doubt freshman that are redshirting that could be helping UND on the field right now. Mussman could have done what Bohl did this year and play several true freshman out of desperation. But would that get UND to where it wants to be in 2012? Again, stay the course.

Mods: Can this post be pinned to the top of the football forum?

[Shawn-O]

I agree, terrific post by RD17!

[UNDvince97-01]

Amen, RD17.

You da man.

Great post.

[SiouxFanatic]

Jeez guys, he's just breakin face!!

This thread is ridiculous though. Sorry dude, we're not throwing our team under the bus just because this season is a let down.

We're not Bison fans, We're SIOUX fans!

[breakin face]

I don't want to be the stick in the mud, but I'm going to break a little face here on the naysayers. I am a little she-grinned at the way my character has been defamed throughout this topic. I am a football fan of UND, in no way do I want to see this program suffer. What you guys are failing to realize is that the competition for recruits at this level is far more intense than it was when we were beating the NDSU's and SDSU's in the D2 days. There isn't enough local depth to build our team from around here which means we'll need to go out of the region and battle even more 1-AA schools for recruits. I feel like this is a more realistic threat to our program than I'm being given credit for. In the end this is a board intended to stir emotions and promote conversation sorry for providing the contrarian viewpoint.

Faces broken right by my faith in the board...

[jodcon]

Very good thread, you guys have done a good job of debating the issue at hand.

I have to admit that living in Montana for 25 years has made me a die-hard Montana Griz fan, but I still check the Sioux FB scores and catch a game now and then, especially if a kid I know is playing.

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents (probably all it's worth) in about a few things you guys were talking about.

1)The move to D1.

Will it hurt recruiting? Yes, especially initially. Some kids (and their parents) are not going to be able to get past the playoff eligibility issue, and the almost certainty that the program will struggle for 2 or 3 years until the next recruiting class hits their stride. The flip side of this is that the kids who do persevere and sign now will have a lot of on-field experience by the time they are juniors, which should in theory produce a decent team down the road. But make no mistake, an upward classification change has got to be the toughest thing that a coaching staff could have to deal with, and Mussman and crew will really have to work hard to sell their product this winter.

Will there be too many D1 teams in this area to get enough decent recruits? I don't think so, we've got the same deal or worse out here with Montana, Montana State, Wyoming, Boise State, Idaho, Idaho State, as well as NAIA power Carroll all recruiting hard, and most of these programs have been able to produce consistent winning teams, and we don't have a ton of people around here either. I think it comes down to which school can sell you on their program, their facilities, their academics, their fan loyalty, etc... and UND measures up well in these areas.

Yeah, what about the fan loyalty, we're not filling the stadium now...what if we have 2 or 3 losing seasons until this turns around? No easy answer, the simple fact is winning brings fans, and until the Sioux get through their "probation period" for lack of a better phrase, we could be looking at similar numbers in the seats. It's going to be up to the school to better promote the football program, and it seems like both they and the Alerus Center have started to move in the right direction, but no matter what they do the Sioux will probably not pack the house consistently until they can produce a winning program again. And I know some people don't like the Alerus Center for one reason or another, but it really is a good facility to watch football in, we watched the UND-USF game from the nose-bleed seats and even they were great seats. And the new hotel/waterpark should only help attendance down the road, if I would have known about it we would have stayed there too. But really, the football stadium is not the biggest reason people go to the games, they go to see their team hopefully win. I've been to Grizzly games in the snow, rain, wind...and they still have almost 26,000 people there, just like on a sunny day. Win and they will come.

2)The Rivalry

UND and NDSU needs this rivalry to get fired up again. Fargo needs it, Grand Forks needs it, heck all of North Dakota needs it. This was one of the best rivalries in this area, and people miss it. It wouldn't hurt to develop another good rivalry or two either, put some excitement back in the stands.

I know people have been hard on breakin face on this thread, but I know where he's coming from, this will get worse before it gets better, and he's just concerned about his beloved Sioux's future. But I really believe in the long run this will work out good for the school, even if we have to suffer for a little while.

[MplsBison]

I don't want to be the stick in the mud, but I'm going to break a little face here on the naysayers. I am a little she-grinned at the way my character has been defamed throughout this topic. I am a football fan of UND, in no way do I want to see this program suffer. What you guys are failing to realize is that the competition for recruits at this level is far more intense than it was when we were beating the NDSU's and SDSU's in the D2 days. There isn't enough local depth to build our team from around here which means we'll need to go out of the region and battle even more 1-AA schools for recruits. I feel like this is a more realistic threat to our program than I'm being given credit for. In the end this is a board intended to stir emotions and promote conversation sorry for providing the contrarian viewpoint.

Faces broken right by my faith in the board...

On the contrary...I believe there are enough talented high school football players in the states of ND, SD, MN, WI, NE and IA alone to support NDSU, UND, SDSU, USD, UNI and even UNO (when they eventually move up).

Then each school can recruit out-of region as they define their recruiting strategy (some may choose to go to the SE, some to Texas, some to California/Arizona, some even to Canada, whatever).

I think the upper midwest is WAY over-looked as a source of football talent.

Just because you're live in Florida does not automatically make you a better athlete than a person who lives in ND!

[MplsBison]

RD17, well done!!

Another thing to contemplate re: SDSU is that they usually have a very tough schedule with no cup-cake games. They schedule Cal Poly religiously and this year are also playing the U of Minn and Georgia Southern.

It's amazing to me how well they have done despite all the negatives they had while in the NCC/still have, such as lack of scholarships, lack of facilities, etc.

They have more than righted the ship, they've taken the ship to somewhere it's never gone.

[jodcon]

On the contrary...I believe there are enough talented high school football players in the states of ND, SD, MN, WI, NE and IA alone to support NDSU, UND, SDSU, USD, UNI and even UNO (when they eventually move up).

Then each school can recruit out-of region as they define their recruiting strategy (some may choose to go to the SE, some to Texas, some to California/Arizona, some even to Canada, whatever).

I think the upper midwest is WAY over-looked as a source of football talent.

Just because you're live in Florida does not automatically make you a better athlete than a person who lives in ND!

Exactly right, after your post I checked the Montana roster out of curiosity to see where everybody was from, they have:

49 from Montana

17 from California

10 from Washington

4 from Idaho

4 from Arizona

2 each from Colorado, Wyoming, Oregon

1 each from Tennesee, Georgia, and BC, Canada

Which tells me that between local talent and players in bigger areas who want to play D1 but can't catch on with the USCs and UCLAs and Washingtons of the world, there are plenty of prospects out there, it's up to the coaches and scouts to go get them.

[Matt]

On the contrary...I believe there are enough talented high school football players in the states of ND, SD, MN, WI, NE and IA alone to support NDSU, UND, SDSU, USD, UNI and even UNO (when they eventually move up).

Then each school can recruit out-of region as they define their recruiting strategy (some may choose to go to the SE, some to Texas, some to California/Arizona, some even to Canada, whatever).

I think the upper midwest is WAY over-looked as a source of football talent.

Just because you're live in Florida does not automatically make you a better athlete than a person who lives in ND!

No, but having high school spring ball is a big advantage.

[MplsBison]

No, but having high school spring ball is a big advantage.

Sure it does.

But talking from a raw, genetic potential...you don't run faster or jump higher just because you live in Florida.

[GeauxSioux]

Sure it does.

But talking from a raw, genetic potential...you don't run faster or jump higher just because you live in Florida.

Yes, you do. I was timed at 4.2 in the 40 yesterday.

Must be that sea level thing.