Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake

[Goon]

W R O N G !!

Sioux-Cia is right we can't let the Native students suffer because of some ideologue(s).

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

An opinion isn't right or wrong, it is merely an opinion.

Try telling that to the NCAA.

[Goon]

Try telling that to the NCAA.

The NCAA is the ideologue(s) that I refer to, they are part of the problem and they are out of touch.

[Siouxman]

I would support the tribes receiving financial gain from marketing of the Fighting Sioux name and logo, provided that financial gain was in the form of scholarships and educational opportunities for Native Americans from reservations in North Dakota or Native Americans who are North Dakota citizens. The granting of these opportunities and scholarships should be through an independent group not tied to any Tribal Council to prevent any appearance of favoritism or opportunity to funnel off the funds. And I would really like to see a Sioux cultural heritage center as part of The Ralph complex that is dedicated to the education of tribal history, culture, and traditions.

The total impetus would be education: opportunities for North Dakota reservation or North Dakota citizen Native Americans (I don't know if Native Americans living on the reservation are state citizens or not), and opportunities for non-Native Americans to learn about the Sioux culture.

[dagies]

I would support the tribes receiving financial gain from marketing of the Fighting Sioux name and logo, provided that financial gain was in the form of scholarships and educational opportunities for Native Americans from reservations in North Dakota or Native Americans who are North Dakota citizens. The granting of these opportunities and scholarships should be through an independent group not tied to any Tribal Council to prevent any appearance of favoritism or opportunity to funnel off the funds. And I would really like to see a Sioux cultural heritage center as part of The Ralph complex that is dedicated to the education of tribal history, culture, and traditions.

The total impetus would be education: opportunities for North Dakota reservation or North Dakota citizen Native Americans (I don't know if Native Americans living on the reservation are state citizens or not), and opportunities for non-Native Americans to learn about the Sioux culture.

I'm with you on your ideas.

[The Walrus]

Forgive me if this has already been posted or discussed. I have been told that the Standing Rock Reservation already had a referendum back in 1962 with a ceremony giving UND it's blessing on the use of the nickname. If this is true, wouldn't they have to have a like referendum to have this now overturned....?

If this is the case, with the Spirit Lake voting and approving, UND may be in the clear to have the support they need.

Please respond if my information is correct or incorrect...?

[82SiouxGuy]

Forgive me if this has already been posted or discussed. I have been told that the Standing Rock Reservation already had a referendum back in 1962 with a ceremony giving UND it's blessing on the use of the nickname. If this is true, wouldn't they have to have a like referendum to have this now overturned....?

If this is the case, with the Spirit Lake voting and approving, UND may be in the clear to have the support they need.

Please respond if my information is correct or incorrect...?

I don't know about the 1962 referendum. There was a ceremony in the 60's where the Standing Rock Reservation gave their blessing. However, that is not relevant any more.

GeauxSioux posted the relevant page from the settlement agreement here. According to that agreement it looks like UND needs different types of tribal consent from the 2 tribes. The NCAA will recognize the 2000 Spirit Lake consent and just wants something in writing from the tribal council saying that they still uphold that consent. The referendum this week was non-binding. The tribal council still needs to put something in writing that says they will approve use of the nickname by UND. The NCAA and the settlement recognize the Standing Rock tribal council vote against the nickname as the official position of the tribe. So they need written proof that the tribe has decided to change their stance and is now supporting the nickname. In this case the approval can be decided by any way that is allowed in the tribal constitution. A referendum at Standing Rock may or may not be binding, depending on what is allowed in the constitution.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I would support the tribes receiving financial gain from marketing of the Fighting Sioux name and logo, provided that financial gain was in the form of scholarships and educational opportunities for Native Americans from reservations in North Dakota or Native Americans who are North Dakota citizens.

(emphasis mine)

I also agree that this would be good. I can also support the idea that some sort of "pre-college" education would be the beneficiary: high schools, grade schools, etc.

Here's a point I will add (and I'd love to hear what others think): as the NCAA has decided that the Standing Rock & Spirit Lake Sioux are the only people who could possibly be harmed by the nickname, does it not follow that the benefits should flow solely to those two tribes and their members??

Another point I will add: I'd like to see a system which would guarantee that as these tribal members get an education, that part of their knowledge goes back to the reservations. Maybe that's a teacher going back to the high school, a doctor going back to the hospital, an engineer going back to build roads and schools, etc. I don't know how that can be enforced but IMHO its a worthwhile goal.

The NCAA is the ideologue(s) that I refer to, they are part of the problem and they are out of touch.

The vote should show them that. They listened to people who are not representative of the NCAA's "victims". The NCAA MOIC started with the idea that the nickname is bad and the

EXCEPTION

should be that somehow the people of the tribes decide that its good: the NCAA easily could have gone the other way. The never gave a chance to people with names like "Indians" or "Braves".

In business, when you form a committee you know that they're going to do

something

(be it good or bad) to prove their worth. That's why you think long and hard before forming a committee and giving it power, and also who should be on that committee. The NCAA takes this to an absurd extreme with "the bad".

[tnt]

Even if the voting was overwhelmingly against, it would be wrong. The University has NEVER stipulated NA programs would exist only if we continue or were given permission to use our name and logo, NEVER.

I agree, but logically speaking, do you think we would have as many Native American programs as we have, if we didn't get permission to use the name long ago? Part of my problem with the PC crowd at other universities, is that they give the appearance that they care, but where are their Universities in regard to giving the "abused" Native Americans at UND an alternative place to attend? As a Norwegian, I am offended that there aren't more Norwegian study programs at UND, but then again, we aren't the Flying Norskies. I am not suggesting changing the Native American programs after the fact, but for those PC professors, they should think about the ramifications if there are shortfalls. The fact that we have so many more programs than NDSU is no coincidence. Maybe they would be able to pick up some more if we encounter shortfalls because of the nickname fallout.

[MplsBison]

I don't know about the 1962 referendum. There was a ceremony in the 60's where the Standing Rock Reservation gave their blessing. However, that is not relevant any more.

GeauxSioux posted the relevant page from the settlement agreement here. According to that agreement it looks like UND needs different types of tribal consent from the 2 tribes. The NCAA will recognize the 2000 Spirit Lake consent and just wants something in writing from the tribal council saying that they still uphold that consent. The referendum this week was non-binding. The tribal council still needs to put something in writing that says they will approve use of the nickname by UND. The NCAA and the settlement recognize the Standing Rock tribal council vote against the nickname as the official position of the tribe. So they need written proof that the tribe has decided to change their stance and is now supporting the nickname. In this case the approval can be decided by any way that is allowed in the tribal constitution. A referendum at Standing Rock may or may not be binding, depending on what is allowed in the constitution.

Thank you.

Best post I've read on this issue so far.

This should be highlighted as required reading for posting on this thread.

Another thing to highlight:

The referendum this week was non-binding.

[Chewey]

Thank you.

Best post I've read on this issue so far.

This should be highlighted as required reading for posting on this thread.

Another thing to highlight:

Another thing to highlight: The vote indicated that the vast majority of the tribe supports the nickname and logo and does not find it "hostile and abusive." The vote itself certainly seems "binding" or, at least very instructive, as to the original stated purpose for the NC00's conduct, namely, that the nickname and logo are "hostile and abusive" and "offensive" to NA's. "Binding" or not, the vote results eviscerate the stated "policy" claims of the NC00 and the vulgar, sanctimonious claims of "racism" by the PC side shows.

[MplsBison]

It's not binding in that the Spirit Lake tribal council is free to not support the nickname, even though the vote was in favor of it.

It's up to the coucil, as it's always been.

I'd be interested to know if a Standing Rock vote could be binding or not. If so, RHHT will not allow a vote IMO.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

The vote itself certainly seems "binding" or, at least very instructive, as to the original stated purpose for the NC00's conduct, namely, that the nickname and logo are "hostile and abusive" and "offensive" to NA's. "Binding" or not, the vote results eviscerate the stated "policy" claims of the NC00 and the vulgar, sanctimonious claims of "racism" by the PC side shows.

I will find it interesting/funny to see if the NCAA tries to claim that "we need constitutional support" in the face of two popular refendums. We haven't gotten there yet, but still...

NCAA: We need this group of 12 to say what the thousands have already said. Otherwise we're sticking to our guns.

[Sioux-cia]

I agree, but logically speaking, do you think we would have as many Native American programs as we have, if we didn't get permission to use the name long ago? Part of my problem with the PC crowd at other universities, is that they give the appearance that they care, but where are their Universities in regard to giving the "abused" Native Americans at UND an alternative place to attend? As a Norwegian, I am offended that there aren't more Norwegian study programs at UND, but then again, we aren't the Flying Norskies. I am not suggesting changing the Native American programs after the fact, but for those PC professors, they should think about the ramifications if there are shortfalls. The fact that we have so many more programs than NDSU is no coincidence. Maybe they would be able to pick up some more if we encounter shortfalls because of the nickname fallout.

I don't believe that the number of Native American programs at UND are tied to the Sioux name and logo. There are three (four if you count Sisseton-Wahpeton)reservations in North Dakota. That is why, IMO, there are so many Native American programs at UND. In addition, the programs are funded by federal grants. The last time I checked, no state money was used for the programs but that may have changed. The reason we have so many more NA programs than NDSU is because we're the better school. The environment, the education dispite what antiname proponents state is the best place for the programs. That's why the NAs and U have obtained the funds needed to pay for these programs. Are you really offended that there are no Norweigen programs at UND? Have you petitioned the U for any? Have you written any grants or proposals to help fund such a program? Right.....

I support the name and logo 100% but I'm getting really tired of blaming an entire population of people for the actions of a few anti-name proponents. When we write here and in other forums about getting rid of NA programs, limiting access to a college education to NA's it makes us look petty, vindictive and uncaring to a population that has done us no harm. The fault here lies with the NCAA and a few NA and non-NA anti-name radicals. Let's not stoop to their level.

[ozzie679]

Was the vote more like a survey that the counsel will take under advisement?

Will the NCAA drop the issue if the counsel approves of UND using the Sioux name?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

It's not binding in that the Spirit Lake tribal council is free to not support the nickname, even though the vote was in favor of it.

It's up to the coucil, as it's always been.

I'd be interested to know if a Standing Rock vote could be binding or not. If so, RHHT will not allow a vote IMO.

What's your problem with letting this issue run its course? I'm sorry, but I really don't give a damn if your beloved Summit conference is in waiting or will somehow leave us out...I really don't care and personally I beginning to think most people on this board don't really care about your opinion on the Sioux name either because your desire to have us named something else is very transparent and somewhat juvenile! Good luck with your starting QB this year champ...Maybe spend some time on Bisonville playing devils advocate on that concern and see how it goes with your own.

BobIwabuchiFan

[Sioux-cia]

I'm wrong about the NA programs not getting state money. I was reading articles about Art Raymond and came across the following information. Do you think Art Raymond did this so the University could keep the name and logo?

http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/nd/2009/13...s_und_dies.html

In 1971, tabbed by President Tom Clifford, Raymond was named director of UND's new Office of Indian Studies, helping to build many programs for Indian students, especially INMED (Indians Into Medicine). His friends say he got elected to the legislature to make sure he could get state funding for his programs at UND.

He explained in 1991 why education was so important.

"When little children call other children racist names, they didn't learn that on their own. They learned it from adults. Attitudes are shaped very young. That's why it is so important to introduce multicultural programs in the schools."

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Attitudes are shaped very young. That's why it is so important to introduce multicultural programs in the schools."

I can only assume that he meant much, much younger than age 18-19, the typical age for an incoming college freshman.

And as always, he couldn't have meant to ignore every other college in the state (or country), could he? Whatever programs he desired should have been taught at every school (at whatever level) he had control over. Again, nickname-neutral.

Just as the nickname isn't the cause of the problems, attacking it at ONE University only isn't the solution either.

[Goon]

What's your problem with letting this issue run its course? I'm sorry, but I really don't give a damn if your beloved Summit conference is in waiting or will somehow leave us out...I really don't care and personally I beginning to think most people on this board don't really care about your opinion on the Sioux name either because your desire to have us named something else is very transparent and somewhat juvenile! Good luck with your starting QB this year champ...Maybe spend some time on Bisonville playing devils advocate on that concern and see how it goes with your own.

BobIwabuchiFan

I don't know why that Skippy is posting here, he seems to think we care about his second rate conference.

When I see some of the teams in that conference minus NDSU, SDSU and SD I want vomit. Not a lot of good teams

and big draws there.

[Sioux-cia]

I can only assume that he meant much, much younger than age 18-19, the typical age for an incoming college freshman.

And as always, he couldn't have meant to ignore every other college in the state (or country), could he? Whatever programs he desired should have been taught at every school (at whatever level) he had control over. Again, nickname-neutral.

Just as the nickname isn't the cause of the problems, attacking it at ONE University only isn't the solution either.

1. Since he was named Director of Indian Studies at a University, I 'assume' that he did not believe that education stopped at a much younger age than 18-19.

2. He worked for UND and as such his goal was to bring in enough grants/monies to fund the programs there. Why dilute the funds amongst all the colleges and univeristies when you can have the best programs at one university in the state?

Art Raymond was a great educator, neighbor, friend, caring individual and his death is a great loss to our community and state. I know that if he could have educated everyone, he would have. He did what he could with what he had and where he was. As a result, our University is held up as the standard for Native American studies and education.

3. I agree that the nickname and logo are not the cause of the NA problems. It's just one thing that the pro name change group feel they have control over. And has been proven by the Spirit Lake vote, the majority do not feel the name and logo are causing any NA problems.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

1. Since he was named Director of Indian Studies at a University, I 'assume' that he did not believe that education stopped at a much younger age than 18-19.

2. He worked for UND and as such his goal was to bring in enough grants/monies to fund the programs there. Why dilute the funds amongst all the colleges and univeristies when you can have the best programs at one university in the state?

Art Raymond was a great educator, neighbor, friend, caring individual and his death is a great loss to our community and state. I know that if he could have educated everyone, he would have. He did what he could with what he had and where he was. As a result, our University is held up as the standard for Native American studies and education.

3. I agree that the nickname and logo are not the cause of the NA problems. It's just one thing that the pro name change group feel they have control over. And has been proven by the Spirit Lake vote, the majority do not feel the name and logo are causing any NA problems.

Someone, somewhere along the line decided that there's a need for UND, NDSU and other state-supported institutions. It would have been easy to concentrate funds, resources, etc. at one place: yet that decision wasn't made that way. Therefore, IMHO if students are located at different schools then these needed, important programs that speak for themselves in terms of their vital interests to the community should be brought to those students. (Personally, I still believe that quote about "multicultural programs" was supposed to apply to the elementary school level.)

No matter who he worked for, since those quotes talked about educating the young I cannot assume that he meant wait until college age (and therefore also filter out those who don't attend college). To me, it sounds as if he was speaking as an Educator, (with a capital "E") rather than an educator at UND.

[Sioux-cia]

.....I cannot assume that he meant wait until college age (and therefore also filter out those who don't attend college). To me, it sounds as if he was speaking as an Educator, (with a capital "E") rather than an educator at UND.

1. Of course not.

2. Of course.

[MplsBison]

What's your problem with letting this issue run its course? I'm sorry, but I really don't give a damn if your beloved Summit conference is in waiting or will somehow leave us out...I really don't care and personally I beginning to think most people on this board don't really care about your opinion on the Sioux name either because your desire to have us named something else is very transparent and somewhat juvenile! Good luck with your starting QB this year champ...Maybe spend some time on Bisonville playing devils advocate on that concern and see how it goes with your own.

BobIwabuchiFan

Thank you for clarifying your position that it is acceptable for UND to not gain membership into the only auto-bid conference it has access to for the rest of the sports, so long as the Sioux nickname is maintained.

While this must be disheartening to UND coaches, players and fans of those sports, obviously their needs are secondary to your own.

The reason I think it's pointless to wait is that even if an agreement is reached now, the NCAA's settlement allows the tribes to pull their support in the future, and you're right back to where you started. There is no possibility for this thing to ever be over and done with. There can always be the next Ron HHT who decides that the tribes no longer support the nickname.

[Goon]

Thank you for clarifying your position that it is acceptable for UND to not gain membership into the only auto-bid conference it has access to for the rest of the sports, so long as the Sioux nickname is maintained.

While this must be disheartening to UND coaches, players and fans of those sports, obviously their needs are secondary to your own.

The reason I think it's pointless to wait is that even if an agreement is reached now, the NCAA's settlement allows the tribes to pull their support in the future, and you're right back to where you started. There is no possibility for this thing to ever be over and done with. There can always be the next Ron HHT who decides that the tribes no longer support the nickname.

Again Skippy it's not your concern and stop lecturing us what you think is acceptable and notacceptable.

What is your purpose for posting here?

[fee_0405]

To say good people are against the nickname. Being good is different than being reasonable. To say your against the nickname might not mean you are a bad person, but it definitely means you are unreasonable. The damage it will do to the university and the Ralph financially would be enough to say it is not worth it. But again, Americans and capitalism are held hostage by the word racism. Since UND can be propped up by taxpayers means only that it is one more government entity on the dole. People of all political leanings might be for the nickname, but a truly unreasonable and small minority of one political ilk are dismantling the nickname, and those good people who are opposed to the nickname would not care if this minority wasn't making so much noise and lying in the media.