The Writing is on the Wall

[GeauxSioux]

There is light surrounding the Fighting Sioux logo issue - and it might come sooner than originally expected.

Kelley said that it has become clear that continued meetings with tribal leaders will not gain their approval. He added that out of respect, the state and university will eventually need to accept their decision.

"I think at some point you have to recognize that you've had an answer," he said. "You don't keep going back saying let's keep talking about this until I get the answer that I think I want."

Kelley said that he was interested in the idea of involving North Dakota high school students in the resolution process since they will be impacted by the changes as well.

Kelley added that his role in the transition will be to ensure that everything goes smoothly in the midst of changes.

"I feel like my job depending on what the state board does is to provide leadership for the university so that all of us can move forward together, so that we come out of this strong together as a university community," he said.

Can you read these statements and others from the article and come away with anything, but the name and logo are gone?

[Goon]

Kelley said that he was interested in the idea of involving North Dakota high school students in the resolution process since they will be impacted by the changes as well.

That is a bad idea, the people that should decide this is the Alumni, present students... I don't think kids that may never go to UND should have a say in the matter. In fact it will trivialize the Fighting Sioux name. This is a horrible idea. This isn't some goofy contest this is our university replacement for a historic name and logo.

[darell1976]

That is a bad idea, the people that should decide this is the Alumni, present students... I don't think kids that may never go to UND should have a say in the matter. In fact it will trivialize the Fighting Sioux name. This is a horrible idea. This isn't some goofy contest this is our university replacement for a historic name and logo.

I agree it should be only UND alumni and students only. In 1994 we the students of GFC high school voted on a new nickname to replace Maroon and Grey and only students could vote, no outside help. So the process went like this you submitted what nickname you want then they took the list and chopped it down to the top 3 at that time it was Pride, Knights and something else i cannot remember, well Knights won overwhelmingly I thought Pride was stupid so i voted for Knights. So thats what UND has to do come up with a list then take the top 3 or 5 and vote from that. They better do it soon Sept 30, 2010 is only about 740 days away.

[dakotadan]

I agree it should be only UND alumni and students only. In 1994 we the students of GFC high school voted on a new nickname to replace Maroon and Grey and only students could vote, no outside help. So the process went like this you submitted what nickname you want then they took the list and chopped it down to the top 3 at that time it was Pride, Knights and something else i cannot remember, well Knights won overwhelmingly I thought Pride was stupid so i voted for Knights. So thats what UND has to do come up with a list then take the top 3 or 5 and vote from that. They better do it soon Sept 30, 2010 is only about 740 days away.

I disagree. The worst thing the administration could do is rush this. They need to take their time and make sure that everyone that is a stakeholder in UND feels that they had a reasonable say. While I agree that students should have a big say, you can't risk upsetting supporters($$$) of UND.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Only students, University Employees (faculty, staff, etc.) and Alumni should have a say in the nickname. In other words, only people directly connected to UND should have a say.

[Riverman]

Did anyone else see the article on the back page of the Herald Section B pg 8 from Friday 9-19-08?

IMHO, still holding out hope that an agreement is going to be made.

The byline read,

"UND, REA officials hear Dakota Sioux culture presentaion"

Quote from Mr. Chaske an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe.

" What I'd like to see is a class for all freshmen and staff members "Chaske said.

"That logo and and the name would be more meaningful to them"

Makes me go hmmm.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Did anyone else see the article on the back page of the Herald Section B pg 8 from Friday 9-19-08?

IMHO, still holding out hope that an agreement is going to be made.

The byline read,

"UND, REA officials hear Dakota Sioux culture presentaion"

Quote from Mr. Chaske an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe.

" What I'd like to see is a class for all freshmen and staff members "Chaske said.

"That logo and and the name would be more meaningful to them"

Makes me go hmmm.

It sure does. It also is yet another conflicting message... We seem to get a story that basically says the nickname is gone, and then the next day, we get a story that indicates there is still hope.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Did anyone else see the article on the back page of the Herald Section B pg 8 from Friday 9-19-08?

IMHO, still holding out hope that an agreement is going to be made.

The byline read,

"UND, REA officials hear Dakota Sioux culture presentaion"

Quote from Mr. Chaske an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe.

" What I'd like to see is a class for all freshmen and staff members "Chaske said.

"That logo and and the name would be more meaningful to them"

First, remember that I can

[Goon]

I think the Logo is gone based on all the talk as of late; even if there has been a lot of dobule talk. I think there is no reason to rush this change.

[Sioux-cia]

Only students, University Employees (faculty, staff, etc.) and Alumni should have a say in the nickname. In other words, only people directly connected to UND should have a say.

Yep!! Just because you live in the community/state doesn't mean you have the same love and desire for the best for the U.

[Bignellyxx]

This topic absolutely makes my blood boil. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to give high school students a say in this. Go Tigers, Falcons, Bears, Wind, Rain. It's obvious enough why. If it needed to come down to a vote alumni and current students should have a say. I think everyone knows which side a vote like this would favor. That is why they want high school student input.

I just graduated in 2007 and I can count on one hand the people I encountered that are against the name. Those people were from my Freshman English class (From this post you can probably tell I didn

[Bignellyxx]

On a side note i just wish everyone that is against the name at the school was present last year in Denver at that bar before the FF game. Nothing like it!

Just about everyday that i wear a Sioux shirt or Jacket no matter where i am at it sparks up conversation. Just last year i met an alum in Hawaii while looking at the ocean off a cliff.

Went to a Capitals game last year (Wearing the Sioux Jersey) and met the GM of the team before the game during some promotion deal. Had a very good conversation with him about Finley. I just can't believe some politically correct bastards want to take these experiences from me. These are just a few stories of many.

[GeauxSioux]

Only students, University Employees (faculty, staff, etc.) and Alumni should have a say in the nickname. In other words, only people directly connected to UND should have a say.

I hope your including one large group of stakeholders that may not fall in your categories listed above, Major Donors. Sure most of the major donations come from alumni, but I'm sure there are or will be some that come from non alumni.

[Goon]

I am absolutely outraged that Kelly claims to be neutral. If you want to move on I don

[Bignellyxx]

It appears that the NCAA is moving towards Neutral sites so why even bother with changing the name why not just leave it then and get a North Dakota third jersey for NCAA games? What happens if REA says go pound sand up your @$$ we aren't paying for the changes.

Yeah i couldn't agree with you more. I was trying to get at that. I hope the REA says go pound pound sand up your @$$ to the school. I think that may be what some people need to realize it's not worth spending a million dollar just to save a handful of peoples feeling.

[Goon]

Yeah i couldn't agree with you more. I was trying to get at that. I hope the REA says go pound pound sand up your @$$ to the school. I think that may be what some people need to realize it's not worth spending a million dollar just to save a handful of peoples feeling.

Yeah if you really think about it REA would be doing it for a small number of people...

I wonder if they would like to donate the money to make the changes.

[siouxjoy]

It appears that the NCAA is moving towards Neutral sites so why even bother with changing the name why not just leave it then and get a North Dakota third jersey for NCAA games?

That works for hockey, but not for the other sports that will hopefully someday contend for a championship. The football team has an amazing record in the Alerus. I don't want to give that advantage up.

[fightingsioux4life]

It appears that the NCAA is moving towards Neutral sites so why even bother with changing the name why not just leave it then and get a North Dakota third jersey for NCAA games? What happens if REA says go pound sand up your @$$ we aren't paying for the changes. I would say lets take up a collection from the Pro-name change people starting with Myles Brand...

We cannot afford to handcuff the football program with those sanctions; football is one of the main reasons we moved up to D-I in all sports in the first place. Football will have a legitimate opportunity to win national titles and to have a legitimate chance of making a run, you have to be able to host playoff games. Home field is more important in football than in any other sport. If we do what you're suggesting, we might as well move to non-scholarship DI FCS football and join Valpo's conference, because we won't get the blue chip FCS recruits anymore.

As for REA refusing to cooperate with a possible name change, I am not a legal expert (nor do I have any desire to become one), but aren't the Fighting Sioux name and logo the legal property of the University of North Dakota? That is, anyone who wants to use the name and logo has to have the permission of UND or else UND can take action against said person or entity. So if the State Board decided to change the name and UND told REA to stop using the name and logo, REA would have a legal obligation to comply or face certain legal consequences.

This would be an excellent acid test to find out if REA really exists to serve UND's interests and promote it's general welfare or if it's really the other way around. Somehow, I think the potential long-term benefits of being able to host future regionals and other tournaments (and the profit potential of those tournaments) would outweigh the short-term costs of removing the logos. But I'm not in the minds of REA management, so I can't be sure about that.

Some people would take the position that "we just can't sue REA over this". Well, I think we can and we should if it comes down to the scenario I described above. REA just relishes the fact that they are a private entity; then they should be treated like one. Being a "business" and a "private entity" is a double-edged sword, like a lot of other things in this world.

Just my 2 cents.

[Goon]

That works for hockey, but not for the other sports that will hopefully someday contend for a championship. The football team has an amazing record in the Alerus. I don't want to give that advantage up.

Isn't it three and a half years before we can host a NCAA tourney game for the other sports?

[Bignellyxx]

As for REA refusing to cooperate with a possible name change, I am not a legal expert (nor do I have any desire to become one), but aren't the Fighting Sioux name and logo the legal property of the University of North Dakota? That is, anyone who wants to use the name and logo has to have the permission of UND or else UND can take action against said person or entity. So if the State Board decided to change the name and UND told REA to stop using the name and logo, REA would have a legal obligation to comply or face certain legal consequences.

This would be an excellent acid test to find out if REA really exists to serve UND's interests and promote it's general welfare or if it's really the other way around. Somehow, I think the potential long-term benefits of being able to host future regionals and other tournaments (and the profit potential of those tournaments) would outweigh the short-term costs of removing the logos. But I'm not in the minds of REA management, so I can't be sure about that.

Some people would take the position that "we just can't sue REA over this". Well, I think we can and we should if it comes down to the scenario I described above. REA just relishes the fact that they are a private entity; then they should be treated like one. Being a "business" and a "private entity" is a double-edged sword, like a lot of other things in this world.

Just my 2 cents.

You are correct that the REA can't use the logo without consent to use it. However if the University does decide to change the logo i highly doubt that would require the REA to essentially remodel the arena. That is just crazy. I think the school would have to play in an arena with and old logo unless they could find a way to pay for the change. I think thats fair and am pretty sure Ralph had the upper hand when the contracts were written. If anyone at the school suggests to raise ticket prices to change the logo or any other way to pass the buck off to sioux fans they have some huge cajones. That is a horrible move that proves why they are in education and not business. I think we have a couple years to worry about football playoffs. I'm sorry if i pissed off people on this forum as it appears i may have earlier. I am a huge supporter and rarely feel like posting. I had a couple beers since the vikings game and felt so inclined to post. Please don't blast me i am on the same team.

[Goon]

You are correct that the REA can't use the logo without consent to use it. However if the University does decide to change the logo i highly doubt that would require the REA to essentially remodel the arena. That is just crazy. I think the school would have to play in an arena with and old logo unless they could find a way to pay for the change. I think thats fair and am pretty sure Ralph had the upper hand when the contracts were written. If anyone at the school suggests to raise ticket prices to change the logo or any other way to pass the buck off to sioux fans they have some huge cajones. That is a horrible move that proves why they are in education and not business. I think we have a couple years to worry about football playoffs. I'm sorry if i pissed off people on this forum as it appears i may have earlier. I am a huge supporter and rarely feel like posting. I had a couple beers since the vikings game and felt so inclined to post. Please don't blast me i am on the same team.

I know they don't have to remove historical logos but it would appear that all the ones on the end of the rows as well as the ones posted around the building will have to go. I think the pro-name change people should buck up and make donations to the 1 milllion dollar fund. Also, I think that this issue will be worked out in the end. Heck the state has a huge surplus maybe they should foot the bill since the Arena benifits a big portion of the state of ND. Fact fact the REA isn't going away and they would be stupid to just sit empty.

I can't speak for anyone else but you didn't piss me off.

[Bignellyxx]

Heck the state has a huge surplus maybe they should foot the bill since the Arena benifits a big portion of the state of ND. Fact fact the REA isn't going away and they would be stupid to just sit empty.

I heard some figure a couple years ago. I think when the World Juniors were in town. The economic impact of the arena alone was absolutely huge that year.

[rochsioux]

"We can't wait until November 2010," Goetz said Friday during a meeting with the Herald's editorial board. "When 2010 comes, we need to have a foundation in place with plans for a transition. All parties need to understand there will be some type of a transition."

University President Robert Kelley stressed that no matter what the transition will be, the issue should be resolved sooner rather than later.

Why is there such a rush on resolving this issue ? The settlement is less than a year old, we still have two years left.

Let's say November, 2010 comes and we have no agreement and have done no preparation for a nickname change.

So what ? None of the revenue sports will be eligible for the playoffs anyway, except for hockey and the regionals are already awarded to other sites. What do we really lose by waiting ? We get one chance to keep the Fighting Sioux name. Let's wait it out and see what time brings. When are the tribal leaders up for re-election ? Maybe, just maybe, they will be voted out and we will see some new leaders that might be more receptive to the nickname. If the tribes would have a vote of all members on this issue and they voted against the nickname then I would say it is time to move on. But every poll I have ever seen on this issue would suggest otherwise.

This seemingly rush to eradicate the nickname suggests that the state and university leaders want to change the name.

IMO, there is no other way to rationalize the "settlement/surrender" with the NC$$ and the idiotic way that Goetz has handled this issue since the surrender was announced.

Here's the quick summary:

Oct, 2007 North Dakota Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem announces surrender that gives UND 3 years to get approval from both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock.

One month later: "North Dakota's Board of Higher Education could act to retire UND's Fighting Sioux nickname within the next few weeks rather than send a delegation to discuss the matter with leaders of the state's two Sioux tribes, board president John Paulsen said".

Goetz decides to "try" and has meetings with the two tribes.

Goetz: Uh, we asked them if they were against the nickname and they said they were. I guess that does it, time to start forming committees.

That's the best they can do ? Wow, who would have thought that they would still be against the nickname a month or two after the surrender agreement with NC$$.

Either the "settlement" was a complete sham or the state board are a bunch of idiots, or both. Since the surrender we have been spoon fed stories that seem to be part of a plan to prepare people for the name change. Where are the leaders on this issue who want to keep the nickname ? I don't think there are any in the ND legislature or in the UND admin offices. It is really sad. Had I know this was the type of leadership we would see on this I would never have contributed to the legal fund.

Goetz estimated it could cost $1 million to remove most of the thousands of Fighting Sioux logos from Ralph Engelstad Arena, the hockey team's home arena. He said Ralph Engelstad Arena officials are not willing to foot the bill for the potential removal of the logos.

So what. Either way UND will have to pay. My understanding is that REA turns over all profits to UND. If so, then even if REA paid for the logo removals it would still cost UND.

[TheGreatSiouxNation]

We do have to remember that Ron McNeil is up for reelection soon. The word I hear from Standing Rock is that he is not very popular. Most Tribal members want it or do not care. He wants this wrapped up before his reelection. Do a little research on what the status of the Reservation and you will find that it continues to get worse under Ron McNeil (Ron His Horse Is Thunder). Crime rate is at an all time high under Ron and needs outside help. I'm still waiting for the press to do their job and report facts about him. Do not give up hope!!!!!

[Goon]

We do have to remember that Ron McNeil is up for reelection soon. The word I hear from Standing Rock is that he is not very popular. Most Tribal members want it or do not care. He wants this wrapped up before his reelection. Do a little research on what the status of the Reservation and you will find that it continues to get worse under Ron McNeil (Ron His Horse Is Thunder). Crime rate is at an all time high under Ron and needs outside help. I'm still waiting for the press to do their job and report facts about him. Do not give up hope!!!!!

Really that would make sense on why they are in such a hurry to get this done. Maybe we need to wait and see how the election goes.