Jackrabbits aren't leaving just yet

[jimdahl]

I don't get where the disagreement is. No one is saying D-I hockey is as popular as the elite conferences in D-I football or basketball, those two are classes by themselves. After that, it gets muddy (particularly as regional sports enter the picture), but D-I hockey is probably in the next few.

This was all in response to an (ill-informed) SDSU fan lumping UND with USD as a weak athletics school. The question is still on the table how SDSU has surpassed UND in the last 10 years.

The same SDSU fan (with no answer to the above question) decided to attack someone's response that UND has won 7 D-I titles to SDSU's 0 by claiming that no one cares about D-I hockey. Again, I think it's been well established that D-I hockey is far more popular than ANY sport in which SDSU fields a competitive team (mmm... D-II track and field).

[UND92,96]

This column in the Sioux Falls Argus Leader is fairly critical of the SDSU brass regarding the conference issue:

link

[BisonguyI]

.........................  Again, I think it's been well established that D-I hockey is far more popular than ANY sport in which SDSU fields a competitive team (mmm... D-II track and field).

Jim,

Here's the NCC champions in track since 1980. I don't think that SDSU has been very competitve :

1980

[jimdahl]

Here's the NCC champions in track since 1980. I don't think that SDSU has been very competitve  :

My mistake, it was cross country in which they've won a national championship half a dozen times (only once since the 80s, men's in 1996). I knew they had won some sort of running-related sport and remembered the earlier post that mentioned track.

[star2city]

This column in the Sioux Falls Argus Leader is fairly critical of the SDSU brass regarding the conference issue:

link

It seems as if Mick Garry of the Argus Leader could have been reading SiouxSports.com:

We can conclude one of two troubling things from SDSU's about-face on this issue:

A. Oien and Miller were, at best, hoping they'd have the conference issue settled before they'd make the jump. They made the claim to regents and in their countless sales pitches knowing to some extent what they know now - that serious conference talk would likely go nowhere because they'd yet to sign the Division I papers. They persisted with this story line because by including conference membership as a contingency, they would make the transition seem more palatable to regents, boosters, etc.

Or:

B. They just didn't realize what they were getting into when they made the conference promise to the regents and whoever else would listen. They simply did not know. They did not know this despite the tens of thousands spent on consultants and the countless conversations with ADs, college presidents, and conference administrators they'd had already. They simply did not know that it would be a struggle to find a suitable conference for the school without officially committing to Division I first. For some reason, the topic just never came up.

If it's A, shame on Miller and Oien. If it's B, then it's a sign that not everything we've heard from SDSU, in spite of its self-proclaimed extensive research, is going to be based on having a clear picture of what comes next.

"It is abundantly clear to us now. . ." Oien began as he started to describe what has transpired in the months since the regents' approval.

Translation: It served our best interests to believe, or pretend to believe, that we'd have the conference thing sewed up. But we know better now, just as we told you we knew better then.

[star2city]

My issue is with the insinuation that college hockey is insignificant.

It's far from accurate to cast 256,591 (and 1,372,229 for WCHA mens hockey) as insignificant in the scope of collegiate athletics. This is especially true when you consider that the great majority of NCAA members don't have that many home game patrons in all sports combined in a season.

By itself, UND Hockey attendance actually leads 9 of the 31 DI Conferences in their total men's basketball attendance:

DI Conference - Teams - Sessions - Total Attendance -Average

17. Big Sky 8 102 319,317 3,131

18. Big West 10 133 368,876 2,774

19. Southern 12 166 419,318 2,526

20. Metro Atlantic 10 134 336,347 2,510

21. Mid-Continent 8 104 259,329 2,494

22. Ivy 8 90 216,328 2,404

23. West Coast 8 110 247,462 2,250

24. Mid-Eastern 11 135 *263,070 1,949

25. Southwestern 10 123 222,640 1,810

26. Southland 11 145 247,668 1,708

27. Patriot 8 106 180,893 1,707

28. Big South 8 102 161,358 1,582

29. Atlantic Sun # 12 143 209,136 1,462

30. America East 9 116 151,149 1,303

31. Northeast 12 140 173,726 1,241

Independent # 6 63 83,839 1,331

If Division I was really serious about keeping its membership roles down, it should implement minimum attendance rules for basketball, just as they have done for Div IA football. Most of the schools in the lower tier of DivI have no business being there, especially the ones that don't even have football teams. A significant number of schools don't even have 20,000 in attendance for all their athletic events. If a school can't average 2000 for men's basketball, they should be forced to a lower level. If a school wanted to move into Div II, it would need to average at least 2000 for basketball. This criteria would be much fairer than the 13 year probation period to keep Div II schools out. It would also make Div II more interesting.

Most of the NCC (except UNC and UNO) would have met the criteria:

DII Conference, Teams, Sessions, Total, Average

1. North Central 9 133 328,903 2,473

2. Mid-America 10 135 235,682 1,746

3. CIAA 12 144 224,249 1,557

These Div II schools compare particularly well in men's BB:

Teams G/S Attendance Avg.

1. Neb.-Kearney 19 72,950 3,839

2. South Dakota St. 17 59,357 3,491

3. North Dakota 14 47,924 3,423

4. Ky. Wesleyan 17 55,800 3,282

5. Northern St. 16 50,451 3,153

[CoteauRinkRat]

[CRH]

I've been on the road and want to respond to some of the comments made in reaction to statements I've made on this site. First, I want to retract any statement that I made alluding to UND and USD being in the same league in terms of their ability to run their programs. Clearly

UND is far superior in terms of their on the field successes,facilities and Marketing of their respective sports. If you have ever been to an event in the Dakota Dome you know what I mean when I say it is the most bush league excuse of a facility and the inability of the athletic director to manage a sporting event and raise dollars got him fired. I wish UND would recognize the collapse of DII and raise the balance of your sports up to the D1 level along with SDSU and NDSU. Regarding the prominence of hockey lets agree that we disagree.

I would like to respond to where SDSU ranks in terms of athletic success compared to UND. Rather than argue about individual sports and the fact that we don't have a hockey program and don't plan to have one, lets look at recent overall program success.

SDSU has finished in the top ten of the Directors Cup the last 2 years

including 5th in the 2002/2003 season. For those of you who don't know the Directors Club is a competition amongst DII colleges where you accumulate points based on how well your teams were able to compete and advance to post season play. Where was UND?

In the competition for the All-Sports Trophy in the NCC the Jackrabbit Men have been absolutley dominant. SDSU Men have won 4 consecutive All Sports Trophies and 6 of the last 8 years. Since 1971 when the competition began the Jacks have won 11 times overall.

2003 Mens Standings

SDSU 119

SCSU 110

Mn.S 105

NDSU 102

USD 100

UNC 93

UND 81

Augie 75

UNO 55

Finally,I understand the atmosphere at a hockey game in Grand Forks is quite an event. I would also tell you that there is no better place in DII to watch a basketball game than Frost Arena. When we pack 8000+

into our homecourt we are virtually unbeatable. Just ask a certain Miami Heat player who never did win at Frost in regular season or post-season. While I had hoped that the NCC would move up as a group its not going to happen. I hope the UND administration wakes up soon and realizes its time to get off the sinking ship. Yes your Hockey Program competes at the highest level but that by itself does not make UND a DI program.

[CoteauRinkRat]

I love how just because UND has hockey, that makes it a target for NDSU and SDSU fans. I don't want to argue anymore about this stuff and I'll also agree to disagree. We have two D1 programs in hockey, one that has a long and successful tradition. We don't see the need right now to move up. If we do in the future, then so be it, i'll support them either way. SDSU and NDSU does not have a D 1 program, they want more prestige and a chance at the national spotlight, more power to them and good luck.

"Yes your Hockey Program competes at the highest level but that by itself does not make UND a DI program. " I don't go around saying our school is D 1, but yes our hockey team is. I apologize that we are D 1 and i'll try to remember to be ashamed to tell people that from NDSU and SDSU because they might jump down my throat and tell me that doesn't make UND a D1 program.

I don't understand why all the negativity towards this issue. Because UND isn't going, you have to come in here and bash us? If we do decide to go, you will bash us again and call us a bunch of coat-tail riders.

It was a bold decision you guys made and I applaud you for it. It is almost like there are a lot of people who don't really want to go, but to make themselves feel better about the decision, they have to be negative and criticize other schools for not going. Insecurity always leads to those kinds of actions.

[nodakvindy]

Nice selective use of stats there CRH. UND had been near the top of the Sears Cup standings the last several years. This year was a slightly down year overall for athletics so the finish was lower than recent years.

As for the NCC all-sport standings, it's a little misleading since not all schools contest all sports. It's no coincidence that the top three finishers are the only three schools that sponsor all ten sports.

Also I note you left out the NCC women's standings where UND finished second and SDSU was near the bottom. This where nearly all schools sponsor all sports. SDSU finished below even NDSU which doesn't have swimming or tennis, and at 8 sports hasn't the fewest in the NCC.

Finally, the only crowd of 8000 I could find last year was for the game against South Dakota, a school you consistently denigrate. The listed crowd for the USD-SDSU game in Brookings wa 8481, while in Vermillion it was 8482. Wouldn't be surprised if both schools were padding the totals in a little gamesmanship.

So I'll take UND's consistent crowds of 10,000+ for hockey versus your one game a year against a rival you are leaving behind and trying to burn as many bridges as possible in doing so.

[jimdahl]

SDSU has finished in the top ten of the Directors Cup the last 2 years including 5th in the 2002/2003 season.  Where was UND?

Since you asked:

2002-03 SDSU #5 UND #30

2001-02 UND #7 SDSU #9

2000-01 UND #2 SDSU #17

1999-2000 UND #3 SDSU #32

1998-1999 UND #6 SDSU #52

No doubt SDSU (winning its first major championship in modern history) had a better season than UND last year. Looking at Directors Cup standings and championships won over a little bit longer period, it's pretty indisputable that UND has been more successful in the last 5-10 years. Also, keep in mind that SDSU's directors cup standings include a few sports in which UND doesn't field a team, but UND's directors cup standings don't include it's highly successful hockey program because it's D-I.

Yes your Hockey Program competes at the highest level but that by itself does not make UND a DI program.

This statement confuses me. The "highest level" is D-I, UND is a D-I hockey program. No one is disputing that UND fields D-II football, basketball, etc... programs, but the hockey program is D-I.

I wish UND would recognize the collapse of DII and raise the balance of your sports up to the D1 level along with SDSU and NDSU.

Many of us wish UND would at least study the issue. Though my gut reaction based on demographics, budgets, and attendance is that UND can afford to reclassify if SDSU can, it's tough to say without the UND-specific numbers of what the budgets would need to be, what attendance and funding changes would be needed to support those, etc... I'd like to see UND at least compile the data so we would know.

[bisonguy]

CoteauRinkRat,

Are you a Sioux fan and a Bison fan?

CoteauRinkRat Posted: Aug 22 2003, 02:08 PM 

Group: Members

Posts: 13

Member No.: 668

Joined: 21-August 03

As a NDSU follower, having to move all the programs up to the D1 level is why I'm still against the decision to go. Football will probably be competitive after a couple years, but the men's and women's basketball programs, and all other programs will suffer greatly

[nodakvindy]

Thanks to Jim for posting the Sears Director Cup standings of recent years, but in the interest of full disclosure, UND's results do indeed include hockey. The D2 Sears Cup scoring system includes a "wild card" due to the generally smaller number of sports offered at D2 schools. UND has received points in this category, and other schools receive points for things like water polo, men's volleyball and skiiing - sports not widely sponsored by D2 schools. This year's DI men's volleyball champ was a D2 school. There are also several D2 schools who are DI in wrestling, and I believe their DI results are counted.

[jimdahl]

Thanks for the clarification. Indeed, I wouldn't want the evidence of UND's athletic superiority to be tainted by my footnotes containing an incorrect assumption about Directors Cup scoring

[nodakvindy]

Didn't mean to come off as snarky in my last post, and for what it's worth, even removing UND's hockey points, it would still have almost certainly finished higher than SDSU each year. The only year it was close, 2001-02, the hockey gave UND a goose egg for Director's Cup points.

Another thing is that the Director's Cup is OK as a reference between teams in the same conference or generally geographic region, but due to the number of sports it heavily favors Sun Belt and West Coast teams. There are a high number of warm weather sports (like water polo), or outdoor sports where a longer season is beneficial to southern teams (like baseball). Conversely skiing and hockey are the only sports where Northern climates are at any real advantage. For this reason, high finishes by schools from the Big Ten and Big East (other than Miami) in the overall standings are all the more impressive.

So UND has shown in recent years that it could certainly be competitive, and the only real barrier to being DI is historic and geographic.

[CoteauRinkRat]

CoteauRinkRat,

Are you a Sioux fan and a Bison fan?

[CRH]

Which Sports does UND not compete within the NCC that the Jacks do. I don't recall hearing anything about the Sioux in Wrestling? I still stand by the fact that the Jacks have won 6 of 8 All Sports Trophy regardless of who decides to participate. No,I have not started down

the road of throwing around our women's records. However, we did win the Womens Basketball National Championship this year and recently were second in the nation in volleyball.

[BisonMav]

CoteauRinkRat Posted: Aug 22 2003, 12:50 PM 

.....Will someone please explain to me how NDSU expects to be competitive in baseball or golf? Two sports where weather is an issue.

When was the last time NDSU won a National Championship in Division II in these sports? Northern teams traditionally do not to well in these sports. Minnesota did win a recent golf championship. Since the NCAA changed the regional format for the baseball playoffs, very few northern teams make the College World Series.

Such a great move for NDSU to make that jump, just so they can play D-1AA football. What am I talking about, they might make the field of 64 in basketball in 25 years and lose in the first round to Kansas or Duke. Then they will probably wait another 25 to make it again. Well worth the time, effort, money, and sacrifices to see NDSU play in the big dance maybe once or twice in my lifetime, NOT!!!! 

Same here, when was the last time NDSU won a Divison II title in men's basketball. Not in my lifetime. That first trip to the NCAA's would be better than the Division II history at NDSU.

If in the future the NCAA told UND it had to move all sports to Division I, or move hockey down, we know what the decision would be.

[CoteauRinkRat]

BisonMav,

I definitely hear and understand your points. I am just frustrated with some of the NDSU administration and some of my Bison alumni who refuse to admit that there are some huge downsides with going D 1. I don't need a lecture on all of the good points and why they are going, just some people think all sports are going to compete at a high level.

[UND92,96]

Which Sports does UND not compete within the NCC that the Jacks do. I don't recall hearing anything about the Sioux in Wrestling?

SDSU has mens tennis and wrestling, and UND does not.

[Charger]

[UND92,96]

I think UND could move as well, but they would be at a slight disadvantage since hockey uses so much of the budget.  Hockey has done a lot for your university in terms of prestige, but it's also the reason you're not going DI.

Yes, hockey uses a rather large percentage of the budget, but it also produces a rather large percentage of the revenue (250,000 plus tickets sold per year plus huge concession sales). It could just as easily be said that UND's hockey program makes a move to division I overall less attractive at this time for UND than for some other schools because right now UND has the best of both worlds in terms of revenue--a huge money-maker at the division I level and football and basketball attendance that is better than many division I schools, but without the division I expenses.

[star2city]

It appears SDSU

[tony]

It

[ScottM]

With SDSU's jump seeming a bit more uncertain and its travel partner status possibly gone, I wonder if Chaps will spend any sleepless nights standing along University Avenue shaking his fist towards the north while holding a bottle of paint thinner in the other hand as he rages against Fate, or perhaps just figuring out if his frequent flyer miles transfer over to Greyhound.

BTW: If the Fool'em ever hosts an 'SU Cheerleading board, I don't want to see pictures. Ever.