Jackrabbits aren't leaving just yet

[ScottM]

I'm not worried about UND's eventual move to D1. We have the facilities, or will have soon, the money, the support and the network to play other sports through a number of D1 hockey schools.

In the interim, it will be nice to watch the Stream Yellow crowd complain because they have to play the majority of games on the road, see if FedEx or Greyhound will ship them to some god-awful part of Utah or California, beg the state for money, jack their students with higher fees and generally watch a "0" gather dust in the W column for years. Best of all, UND didn't have to pay for consultants who were conveniently ignored when their reports didn't mesh with the MJ haze wafting across University Avenue N. Fun times, indeed.

[tony]

CoteauRinkRat, I can't help what emotion you read into my posts. Don't use your "hostility voice" when you're reading them and see if that helps.

I'm not sure I understand the rest of your points. I can only speak for myself, certainly not for SDSU. I've never seen any indication that SDSU has had much interest in what UND thinks about their move after UND helped nix having a DI NCC. I listed the obvious problems with DII so that you could see what it is like to have UND's decision to stay in DII critiqued by an outsider. Now imagine that about 100 times over, and you'll have a good idea what people like me put up with.

BTW, I was trying to be offensive, not defensive so you could see how how I view UND's concern over NDSU/SDSU moving up.

To me the watering down of DII goes hand in hand with any criticism of them because obsessing about SDSU's methods ignores the larger picture - the decline of DII. And if you think DII was better 5-10 years ago, 10-20 years ago DII was better still. This coming year will probably see the fourth scholarship cut in that time period.

This is total hyperbole (so dial it down), but a UND fan criticizing SDSU for the way they've handled their move to DI is kind of like a passenger on the Titanic scuttling the best and most seaworthy lifeboat (a DI NCC) and then criticizing a fellow passenger for getting into the next best lifeboat too quickly.

[The Sicatoka]

... and then criticizing a fellow passenger for getting into the next best lifeboat too quickly.

Too bad the wealthy ladies in their large, feathered hats (the superconferences) already in that boat see those making the mad dash to "their boat" as 'riff-raff' and may just shove-off without them (and toss those already in overboard).

[PCM]

I've never seen any indication that SDSU has had much interest in what UND thinks about their move after UND helped nix having a DI NCC.

Refresh my memory, Tony. When was this DI NCC concept seriously discussed and what did UND do to torpedo it?

I'm an alumnus of SDSU. I give money to SDSU. Maybe SDSU should care what I think, regardless of where I live or what college teams I cheer for.

Maybe it should care about what my relatives in South Dakota think. Many of them are also SDSU grads. Maybe it should care about what editors of South Dakota newspapers think. Many of them are SDSU journalism school grads.

SDSU has already sent the message that it doesn't care what members of the State Board of Regents think. But what the heck. The Board of Regents is only the constitutional governing board for South Dakota's state universities. When the Board says SDSU must find a conference before moving to D-IAA, why should SDSU care?

I can guarantee one thing. If state legislators begin to believe that they've been lied to and that SDSU need not concern itself with what elected officials think or what the voters and taxpayers of the state think, then the legislature will take action to remind SDSU that it is not an entity unto itself. And if you don't think they have the power, try them. I've seen it happen before. It ain't pretty.

[tony]

PCM, ask around. The NCC voted on whether to go DI or not. USD, NDSU, SDSU, and UNC were for it. Augie, St. Cloud, Mankato, and presumably UN-O were against. UND lobbied against and voted against it. UND's vote was crucial. IMO, UND would have been better off taking a realistic look at where DII was going and bit the bullet. They didn't. That's all water under the bridge now.

The Sicatoka, not to be obtuse, but suppose the superconferences break off, does this mean that NDSU or SDSU would want to go back to DII and try to outbid UND for the Crookston game? Besides, if I were you, I'd be more worried about how this affects hockey. If the super-duper-wonder-conferences break off, I doubt the remaining NCAA members are going to look kindly on letting them into the NCAA just for hockey or any other Olympic sports.

IMO, NDSU and SDSU belong in the same division as Montana, Montana State, Maine, and Georgia Southern.

IYO, UND belongs in the same conference as Newberry, Mesa State, and Crookston.

Maybe we're both right

[DamStrait]

PCM, ask around. The NCC voted on whether to go DI or not. USD, NDSU, SDSU, and UNC were for it. Augie, St. Cloud, Mankato, and presumably UN-O were against. UND lobbied against and voted against it. UND's vote was crucial. IMO, UND would have been better off taking a realistic look at where DII was going and bit the bullet. They didn't. That's all water under the bridge now.

The Sicatoka, not to be obtuse, but suppose the superconferences break off, does this mean that NDSU or SDSU would want to go back to DII and try to outbid UND for the Crookston game? Besides, if I were you, I'd be more worried about how this affects hockey. If the super-duper-wonder-conferences break off, I doubt the remaining NCAA members are going to look kindly on letting them into the NCAA just for hockey or any other Olympic sports.

IMO, NDSU and SDSU belong in the same division as Montana, Montana State, Maine, and Georgia Southern.

IYO, UND belongs in the same conference as Newberry, Mesa State, and Crookston.

Maybe we're both right

Regarding your first paragraph: Reveal your sources. I honestly want to know the skinny on this. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Regarding your second paragraph: The UND-Crookston arrangement no longer exists, so it's time to quit beating that dead horse. UND is not a threat to the "superconferences" in hockey revenue because as a DII institution, they do not share in NCAA tourney revenues even should they win the crown. Basketball and baseball are also Olympic sports, as is wrestling etc. Football is the only non-Olympic sport of any consequence that is typically sponsored by US colleges and universities. So your "Olympic" reference is not accurate (or cute or funny or relevant, for that matter).

Regarding your fourth paragraph: I believe the Sicatoka has gone on record (as have a large number, maybe even a majority, of UND fans frequenting this site, myself included) as saying he thinks UND ought to go DI.

Try coming back when you are in a better mood.

[The Sicatoka]

Now, tony, you're trying to speak for me.

From the beginning of this (way back when) I said there was a "missing level." The NCAA acknowledges this with "IAA" in football.

And, way back, I also pointed out that the NCC split right along the hockey line. Obviously Augie would be against it. They're cash-strapped.

With Augie and the four schools with DI experience (hockey) the NCC went against the idea 5-4. Forgive me for believing the opinion of the schools with experience in DI competition.

And you missed something: UND will be playing Boston College, Yale, and Minnesota before the calendar says "2004."

As far as superconferences, their concern is revenue from TV from football and basketball. Who knows who and how they'd invite to play beyond that. But a team that fills an 11,406 seat hockey arena 23 nights a season has to be interesting to them. (It goes back to that "carry the load" and "money sharing" concept.)

[tony]

Hey, I'm in a good mood. I kind of like yanking your chains, you griping about SDSU gave me an excuse.

If you can't take it, you should lay off SDSU and NDSU for doing what (apparently) many UND folks think UND should do.

Sicatoka, speak for yourself, if you don't want me to do it. When should UND go DI? In your prior post you said UND made the right decision shooting down a DI NCC. Are you saying UND should go DI but the NCC shouldn't? Forgive me for being confused...

[The Sicatoka]

Let's run "what if."

Let's say UND sided with the "go DIAA" crowd at that NCC meeting. What would be the expected results?

I'd postulate:

SCSU and MSU-Mankato would jump to the NSIC.*

UM-Duluth would stay in the NSIC.*

UN-Omaha stated they'd join the MIAA (with NW Missouri, et al).

Augustana most likely would join the NSIC as well.

So what would have been left?

UNC, NDSU, SDSU, USD, and UND.

That is not even enough for a conference.

Add to that that now there's even fewer regional "comparables" to select from to add a sixth, seventh, and eighth team for a workable number.

This scenario would be any better for any concerned? If so, show me how.

A more temperate approach by all (fewer precipitous moves, fewer positioning statements) would have allowed for more study (and possibly preparation) for a move as a unified group.

I'd say UND should move, but only after following the advice given by Carr Sports Associates to both NDSU and SDSU: Campus concensus, fiscal resources in place, strategic plan for people and facilities engaged, "Secure an acceptable conference membership before making the decision to reclassify to I-AA" (note the quote marks), move.

* I base that on the state of the State of Minnesota budget.

[CRH]

PCM-In response to your statement that SDSUFan and CRH are the same person your inacurate along with about 90% of the rest of your dialogue. I really could care less what UND does or does not do in the future as it relates to which division you participate in. Are you not already a division I institution anyway because of revered hockey program you have.

PCM- If your so disgusted with the fact that SDSU is making this move than keep your money and allegiances with UND. I think will get by. SDSU went to great measures to insure they were making the right move beyond the Carr report. Fred Oien and Co. held forums all over the state to answer questions and explain the rational behind the move. The forum I went to in Sioux Falls was packed and the majority were in favor. Many of those who were against spoke their peace. The SDSU student congress came out in favor of the move and so did the Alumni Assn. Every entity that wanted to give their two cents had the opportunity. SDSU did not have to get the approval of the Board of Regents but I thought it was very prudent we did so. The conference membership was not mandated by the BOR, but rather self imposed by SDSU officials. The bottom line is in their quest to seek conference membership along with NDSU they were finding no interest because no conference would take an institution seriously until they officially declared their intention to move up. SDSU essentially had to announce and put their money where there mouth was or this was a futile attempt. The NCC deciding to increase the timeline and penalty for notification of departing the league was a direct shot at SDSU that backfired and also played a role in pushing SDSU to make the move sooner than later. Would the SDSU officials liked to have secured a conference before announcing? absolutely. Has finding a conference been more difficult than anticipated (absolutely). Would SDSU have preferred to have the entire NCC Conference move up (You bet) they lobbied heavilly on this issue. Most of the NCC with the exception of Augie already operate like a D1 institution. The Argus Leader has been very vocal against this move and they certainly have that right. Those views do not represent the majority of people I have spoke to. I attended the annual Stan Marshall Golf event this year and they had to create two shotguns and had more participation than ever before. I attended the pregame party and game at the Jacks only home game so far this year and people commented that there was a buzz and excitement level like never before. President Elliott got a rousing applause. This move is not about a few vocal people and media outlets that are intimidated with change. This is about taking an institution of 10,000 that is D1 academically to the next level in athletics. This move will also help recruit new students (last time I checked North Dakota was losing population and South Dakota had slight growth and the number of kids in High Schools in the two states is projected to decline. Many think this will help us recruit students outside the State. This move is already paying dividends with alumni that are getting reconnected with the school. Maybe there is hope for PCM. Do we care what UND fans think about our move and the tactics? NO Do we care what PCM and his relatives think about the move? Not anymore as we are just looking forward to the opportunity to compete against that more resemble SDSU. It seems UND is comfortable competing D1 Hockey and playing the Crookstons and Newberry's of the world in everything else(have fun). Winning championships against the watered down DII will mean nothing in the future. Go ahead and continue to speculate what the Jacks may do next. Look forward to seeing you in Brookings for the October game. In the meantime, on the hockey front I do admit I've become a bit of a fan and look forward to watching my adopted team the Gophers win a 3rd championship in a row!

[The Sicatoka]

This is about taking an institution of 10,000 that is D1 academically to the next level in athletics.

First, (sorry for barging into a good spat) DI is a National Collegiate Athletics Association measure. It has nothing to do with academics. For that, reference something like Princeton Review please.

Secondly, ten thousand, eh? Just 30% behind.

[CRH]

Were happy you for you! Will see if you maintain that kind of enrollment with the kind excitement that will be generated in Fargo.

[CRH]

I was not referencing any D1 kind of accreditation for academics, but rather an analogy that SDSU has recieved grants and research accolades comparable to institutions that happen to be large D1 Universities who have recieved similar designations.

[DamStrait]

Hey, I'm in a good mood. I kind of like yanking your chains, you griping about SDSU gave me an excuse.

If you can't take it, you should lay off SDSU and NDSU for doing what (apparently) many UND folks think UND should do.

Sicatoka, speak for yourself, if you don't want me to do it. When should UND go DI? In your prior post you said UND made the right decision shooting down a DI NCC. Are you saying UND should go DI but the NCC shouldn't? Forgive me for being confused...

I don't think I've said anything about SDSU moving other than I wished that they and the rest of the NCC would look at moving up together one more time.

The gist of what I've had to say about NDSU going up is that it was the building of REA and UND winning the football title that precipitated their move. That and Clear Channel Comm. broadcasting UND football and hockey across the state. And I said that, what, like a year or more ago?

If you can't take what UND fans say about UND's rivals, maybe you should refuse to visit this site.

Sometimes you have something worth saying. Most of the time and more and more you a just a knee-jerk paranoid UND hating troll. We are all aware that you consider NDSU to be the most perfect institution of higher learning in the history of mankind, and that you also consider UND to be the most vile institution of any kind ever to exist. Come back when you have something new to say.

[tony]

HAHAHAHAhA! Where to begin?

Sicatoka, was that a yes or a no? In my book, you are saying, "No, UND shouldn't move up." It's like me saying I'll buy a Manhattan townhouse when somebody comes along and writes me an unsolicited check for $10 million dollars for just being charming old me. You have a good imagination, write me a scenario in which UND gets an invite from a conference that NDSU and SDSU aren't already a member of and give me a time frame that you are thinking of.

You know what would have made your scenario work? A DI NCC. Bingo. UND would have had a conference, solving the major obstacle that UND faces in going DI... I mean besides having a President who is dead set against it, that is. I looked back at my source, and even Mankato's administration was open to the idea of a DI NCC. For inexplicable reasons, you think that this UND made a smart play nipping that in the bud.

Now DamStrait, is that a dis-invitation? Oh no! Have Jim ban me but before start calling me a troll, why not do a search on all my posts. It's pretty easy:

1. Click Search.

2. Leave the keywords text box empty

3. In the Filter by Member Name text box enter 'tony'

4. Under "Search Where" click the Forum you want (football and DI-AA are where I post).

5. In the "Result Type", click the radio button by Show Results By Posts (that way you don't have to wade through the whole thread).

What's the most egregious example of UND bashing you can find in the last, oh let's say 60 days?

There are UND fans running down SDSU in a public, worldwide forum. Sure, I could let you do it without pointing out that it's a spiteful thing to do and turning the tables on you... but I'm not going to do so voluntarily.

[UND92,96]

There are UND fans running down SDSU in a public, worldwide forum. Sure, I could let you do it without pointing out that it's a spiteful thing to do and turning the tables on you... but I'm not going to do so voluntarily.

Running down SDSU? At most, I would say that some of us are critical of Miller and Oien, but certainly no more so than are some columnists for the largest newspaper, by far, in South Dakota, namely the Argus Leader. Furthermore, being critical of two individuals is not exactly the same as criticizing an entire institution. I'm curious, have you been writing letters to the editor to the Argus Leader expressing your disapproval of what has been written there? I suspect that if you're really that concerned about SDSU's public image, that may be a better forum in which to affect public opinion of the people of SD. At least it would be a far better forum than this since other than CRH, few if any SDSU fans seem to even know this message board exists.

[PCM]

I looked back at my source, and even Mankato's administration was open to the idea of a DI NCC. For inexplicable reasons, you think that this UND made a smart play nipping that in the bud.

You seem to be under the illusion that UND is somehow responsible for sabatoging a proposed Divsion I NCC. Let's put that theory to the test.

Assuming that you are correct, SDSU, NDSU, USD and UNC voted for a switch to DI. UND, Mankato, St. Cloud, Augustana and UNO voted against the move. This vote, which I'm guessing was unofficial and non-binding, went 5-4 against the conference going NCAA DI.

But what are the facts?

The fact is, UNC was gone no matter what the NCC did. Their vote doesn't matter and shouldn't even be counted. And last September, USD announced that it would not switch to D-IAA for a variety of reasons. USD's earlier vote in favor has been rendered irrelevant.

Therefore, in reality, it's only NDSU and SDSU that favor a D-IAA NCC. UND, USD, Mankato, St. Cloud, Augustana and UNO are against it. That makes today's vote 6-2, not 5-4.

Edited September 26, 2003 by PCM

[DamStrait]

I looked back at my source, and even Mankato's administration was open to the idea of a DI NCC. For inexplicable reasons, you think that this UND made a smart play nipping that in the bud.

Yeah, that's revealing your source, alright. Troll

[PCM]

PCM-In response to your statement that SDSUFan and CRH are the same person your inacurate along with about 90% of the rest of your dialogue.

Whatever you say, Clair.

I really could care less what UND does or does not do in the future as it relates to which division you participate in.

If you care so little about UND, why do you spend so much time here?

Are you not already a division I institution anyway because of revered hockey program you have.

Thanks for noticing.

PCM- If your so disgusted with the fact that SDSU is making this move than keep your money and allegiances with UND.

I am not disgusted by the move. I am disgusted with the manner in which the idea is being sold and the way in which the plan (if you can call it that) is being executed.

SDSU went to great measures to insure they were making the right move beyond the Carr report.

Perhaps if SDSU's administration had shown any inclination to follow the recommendations of the Carr Report, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Fred Oien and Co. held forums all over the state to answer questions and explain the rational behind the move.

What SDSU's administration did to sell the idea and what it has done to implement it are two separate matters.

The conference membership was not mandated by the BOR, but rather self imposed by SDSU officials.

Really? So why did the Board of Regents issue this news release titled "Regents Adopt Division I Athletics Policy" which says:

The South Dakota Board of Regents Thursday adopted a new athletic policy that establishes specific financial and policy requirements for any of its institutions that participate at the NCAA Division I level.

The Board also voted 6-2 to support South Dakota State University's application for Division 1-AA status, if SDSU can find an appropriate athletic conference to join.

I see nothing about this policy being self-imposed by SDSU or being made optional by the BoR. The language is quite clear.

In the meantime, on the hockey front I do admit I've become a bit of a fan and look forward to watching my adopted team the Gophers win a 3rd championship in a row!

So go hang out on the Pride On Ice Web site. I'm sure Gopher fans will be thrilled to hear about SDSU's big plans and major accomplishments.

[BisonMav]

Todays Forum: Tough sell: SDSU move to D-1 has support, but not on Main Avenue

This is the best statement I have read so far about SDSU's move:

That

[The Sicatoka]

What did I say?

A more temperate approach by all (fewer precipitous moves, fewer positioning statements) would have allowed for more study (and possibly preparation) for a move as a unified group.

There was a group aimed at DI.

There was a group less in favor of it.

Rather than taking a "let's look at this together" approach and taking a little more time to study the issues as a group, with strength in numbers, one subset, when they didn't get the answer they desired, moved. Now everyone is left in the lurch.

A DI NCC may have been a solution. However, go back and look at the situation objectively.

Under this DIAA NCC scenario:

UN-Omaha has said they'd go to the MIAA.

Augustana has hinted at going to the NSIC rather than go DIAA.

At best what's left is UND, NDSU, SDSU, UNC, USD, SCSU, and MSUM, and maybe UM-Duluth. However, would all the Minnesota schools have stayed or would they have gone with the lower-cost DII solution of the NSIC as well?

In light of the current situation it appears that rather than moving as a group it is everyone for themselves. Each appears to be taking a different approach.

Personally, I'd say the wise ones are following the reports of professional consultants (whether theirs or someone else's) on the issue. They say to establish (in order):

Campus Consensus

Finances and Revenue Streams

Strategic Plan (for people and facilities)

Conference Affiliation,

Then Move to DIAA.

[BisonMav]

The Sicatoka Posted on Sep 26 2003, 07:56 AM

Personally, I'd say the wise ones are following the reports of professional consultants (whether theirs or someone else's) on the issue. They say to establish (in order):

There is nothing wrong with your stance, Sicatoka. It's just different from the stance of the schools making the move to I-AA. I personally think if we waited for the NCC to decide on the move, it would take a very long time, if ever. Kind of like the USA waiting for France and Germany and the UN to support the War in Iraq. Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with remaining in Division II. "Wise" is a relative term, depending on which side of the debate you are coming from. The NCAA rules for a division I move are pretty strict right now, 5 year waiting period for most sports, 13 for basketball. They may get worse in 5-10 years, and make it almost impossible to move from Division II to Divison I.

[ScottM]

There are UND fans running down SDSU in a public, worldwide forum. Sure, I could let you do it without pointing out that it's a spiteful thing to do and turning the tables on you... but I'm not going to do so voluntarily.

Unless you've missed the patently obvious, this is a UND forum. There are no requirements that we have to be nice to other schools or their fans. I'm sure if all three SDSU backers of a D1 move were upset like dear Clair, they could log in and post rambling illucid rants in their own defense too. However, I'm sure the SDSU fans appreciate the largess of the Stream Yellow rabble in coming to their defense with their own myopic "logic".

[BisonMav]

ScottM Posted on Sep 26 2003, 09:00 AM

Unless you've missed the patently obvious, this is a UND forum. There are no requirements that we have to be nice to other schools or their fans.

You are correct, you do not have to be nice to other schools or their fans.

[tony]

Yeah, that's revealing your source, alright. Troll

DamStrait, I am not your momma. If you want me to do what any educated person should be able to do for themselves quite easily, then ask nicely

If you live in Grand Forks, trot down to the library and look through May issues of the Forum and Herald. The dates of any articles would be right around May 20, 2002. I'm not sure whether reference librarians do this kind of thing, but this might be the kind of question they handle. Call 'em up and find out.