Awesome Letter

[fourwindsboy]

Agreed that this is one of the absolute worst PR blunders that the tribes could possibly make. To people like RHHT, David Gipp, BRIDGES etc., it's not about what is rational or good long-term for the tribe. They are not interested in constructing bridges, working to end racism, etc. They are for simply striking back in this fashion.

How in the hell are Native Americans supposed to end racism when we're the victims? PR blunders my a$$. So if by some miracle the nickname stays, NA's are going to be embraced by the dominant culture and racism ends and we all sing Kumbaya by the campfire? Wake up and smell the coffee people! NA's have always gotten the shaft from the man and always will. I'm bein real and you know it. If we have a chance to win a small skirmish, after gettin kicked for hundreds of years, then I'm all for it.

[Darth412000]

How in the hell are Native Americans supposed to end racism when we're the victims? PR blunders my a$$. So if by some miracle the nickname stays, NA's are going to be embraced by the dominant culture and racism ends and we all sing Kumbaya by the campfire? Wake up and smell the coffee people! NA's have always gotten the shaft from the man and always will. I'm bein real and you know it. If we have a chance to win a small skirmish, after gettin kicked for hundreds of years, then I'm all for it.

I have to admit that I don't think racism will ever end no matter what happens in the world. It's an ignorant belief that some people have and there will always be ignorant people. I just don't know that I agree that the Fighting Sioux name and logo breed racism, endorse it or encourage it. It's terrible how this government has treated Native Americans in the past and even today, at times. I don't think that is something that anyone tries to deny. I still fail to see how any of that is directly related to the name and logo of a university.

Maybe I'm the ignorant one, but I don't think the Fighting Sioux name and logo have been the cause of "NA's [always getting] the shaft from the man..." Like I said though, maybe I'm the one that's ignorant in all of this.

I'd like second a few others' in their comments earlier as well. I think that if terrible, racist or hateful incidents have been directed at you (fourwindsboy), or anyone for that matter, on the UND campus those instances need to be reported and addressed immediately. It is a frustrating argument when there are no tangible examples or reports of these incidents that supposedly happen so often to Native American students, other than the generic claims of being treated poorly because of race. I believe that if people are harassing and threatening, they don't belong on this campus. Unfortunately, they cannot be dealt with and removed unless they are reported. I don't know if that occurs, but I really hope it does.

[Goon]

I'd like second a few others' in their comments earlier as well. I think that if terrible, racist or hateful incidents have been directed at you (fourwindsboy), or anyone for that matter, on the UND campus those instances need to be reported and addressed immediately. It is a frustrating argument when there are no tangible examples or reports of these incidents that supposedly happen so often to Native American students, other than the generic claims of being treated poorly because of race.

I have seen nor read no HARD evidence of these horrible things that are supposed to be happening on campus and here in Grand Forks (police reports, examples or specific incidents), all I have seen is the stuff from the 1990's, many people have we have asked for specific examples, NO ONE can give us one except the tasteless stuff from the 1990's. I am not saying there isn't racist thought or actions in the world they exist everywhere, however, this is not a result of a sport team moniker or logo, its a mind set. Does it happen in Grand Forks, ND yep but it also happens in Mpls, Fargo, Detroit every where.

[Chewey]

How in the hell are Native Americans supposed to end racism when we're the victims? PR blunders my a$$. So if by some miracle the nickname stays, NA's are going to be embraced by the dominant culture and racism ends and we all sing Kumbaya by the campfire? Wake up and smell the coffee people! NA's have always gotten the shaft from the man and always will. I'm bein real and you know it. If we have a chance to win a small skirmish, after gettin kicked for hundreds of years, then I'm all for it.

Ah, more victim fixating. That's it. NA's such as RHHT and David Gipp and their white enablers are perpetuating racism with their "we can use the name but white people can't" argument and with their "you're all racists if you support UND using the nickname" position. There are racist NAs, there are lots of racist blacks, there are lots of racist hispanics, etc. Just because you're not in the so-called "dominant culture" (another racist term thrown around by sociologists, racist administrators/educators, etc.), does not mean that you can never be a racist. Racism is not something exclusively reserved for white people. Besides, what the fools who use the term "dominant culture" do not realize are the implications that go along with it. What are other cultures? Are they the weak cultures? Are they the subservient cultures? Are they the inferior cultures? These are the implications that go along with the disgusting "dominant culture" term. One would think that the use of this term would be taboo in PC land but nothing else in PC land makes sense or is consistent. I guess the fact that nothing in the PC mindset makes logical sense and everything is inconsistent are the only consistent things in PC land.

[Herd]

In a workplace harassment situation (which I believe that some liken this situation to . . . NCAA, some native americans), when someone is offended by a Action, a Joke, a Comment, a picture in the wall, etc, etc . . . you don't bring the entire office into a meeting and ask them to vote if the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall is offensive.

If the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall, etc . . . is offensive to one person while files a claim to the human resource organization, that's all it takes. If 9 out of 10 people don't think that the situation was harassment, but 1 person does, that's all it takes. In a workplace situation that's how it works, no questions aksed. Decisive action is taken to support the view of the 1 person . . . in a workpalce situation.

I believe that's how the NCAA and the Indian leader view this situation. For Ron His Horse, the logic of putting this situation to a vote does not apply. I believe that this is how the situation is viewed by some. I am not saying that I agree with this logic with regard to the nickname, but I liken their viewpoint to a workplace harassment sitation. To them the logic of . . . "let's see what the majority thinks", does not apply as it is offensive to some.

Unless people understand this viewpoint, right or wrong, I don't think that they understand where these groups are coming from. They do not view this as "Let's see what the majority thinks". Again, these are observations of the position that I believe these groups are coming from.

[fourwindsboy]

In a workplace harassment situation (which I believe that some liken this situation to . . . NCAA, some native americans), when someone is offended by a Action, a Joke, a Comment, a picture in the wall, etc, etc . . . you don't bring the entire office into a meeting and ask them to vote if the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall is offensive.

If the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall, etc . . . is offensive to one person while files a claim to the human resource organization, that's all it takes. If 9 out of 10 people don't think that the situation was harassment, but 1 person does, that's all it takes. In a workplace situation that's how it works, no questions aksed. Decisive action is taken to support the view of the 1 person . . . in a workpalce situation.

I believe that's how the NCAA and the Indian leader view this situation. For Ron His Horse, the logic of putting this situation to a vote does not apply. I believe that this is how the situation is viewed by some. I am not saying that I agree with this logic with regard to the nickname, but I liken their viewpoint to a workplace harassment sitation. To them the logic of . . . "let's see what the majority thinks", does not apply as it is offensive to some.

Unless people understand this viewpoint, right or wrong, I don't think that they understand where these groups are coming from. They do not view this as "Let's see what the majority thinks". Again, these are observations of the position that I believe these groups are coming from.

Believe me, on the SLN it isn't one person. It's a significant amount of people. Alot of these people, including myself, are educated. More importantly, most of the elders are opposed to the name. On any rez, the opinion of the elders is held in the highest regard.

[petey23]

Believe me, on the SLN it isn't one person. It's a significant amount of people. Alot of these people, including myself, are educated. More importantly, most of the elders are opposed to the name. On any rez, the opinion of the elders is held in the highest regard.

Well, then you certainly wouldn't mind if the issue was put to a vote of the people on the reservation then? I have friends there who tell me that a vote would come out at about 75-25 in favor so why don't we find out how people really feel about it?

[Chewey]

In a workplace harassment situation (which I believe that some liken this situation to . . . NCAA, some native americans), when someone is offended by a Action, a Joke, a Comment, a picture in the wall, etc, etc . . . you don't bring the entire office into a meeting and ask them to vote if the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall is offensive.

If the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall, etc . . . is offensive to one person while files a claim to the human resource organization, that's all it takes. If 9 out of 10 people don't think that the situation was harassment, but 1 person does, that's all it takes. In a workplace situation that's how it works, no questions aksed. Decisive action is taken to support the view of the 1 person . . . in a workpalce situation.

I believe that's how the NCAA and the Indian leader view this situation. For Ron His Horse, the logic of putting this situation to a vote does not apply. I believe that this is how the situation is viewed by some. I am not saying that I agree with this logic with regard to the nickname, but I liken their viewpoint to a workplace harassment sitation. To them the logic of . . . "let's see what the majority thinks", does not apply as it is offensive to some.

Unless people understand this viewpoint, right or wrong, I don't think that they understand where these groups are coming from. They do not view this as "Let's see what the majority thinks". Again, these are observations of the position that I believe these groups are coming from.

That kind of hyper-sensitive mindset is what is the problem in the workplace, for sure. I understand the comparison but it is not totally valid. The agreement is if we can get approval from the tribes we keep the name. If an employment contract had something about the fact that the use of terms offensive to some would be permitted as long as most of that "some" agree to it, I think your comparison would have more validity. Besides, the tribes gave the name. In a work place one does not say "I give you permission" to use this term and that term and then go complaining that the term is offensive. Do not even start with me about the work place business. People need to shut up and work and get thicker skins. They should be thankful that their jobs are not over in China or India.....yet. Do any of us think that the Chinese and Indians do this crap and make their people go to sensitivity training so that they know that the use of "black" rather than "african american" is wrong or the use of "man" as opposed to "humans" is wrong? It's one thing to prevent the use of obvious name calling and sexual harassment. It's quite another to have that noblest of good intentions to morph into what it is today.

[The Sicatoka]

The "workplace" notion is a nice try until you remember the "FSU" exemption.

And "gettin' back at the man" is so clich

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

In a workplace harassment situation (which I believe that some liken this situation to . . . NCAA, some native americans), when someone is offended by a Action, a Joke, a Comment, a picture in the wall, etc, etc . . . you don't bring the entire office into a meeting and ask them to vote if the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall is offensive.

If the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall, etc . . . is offensive to one person while files a claim to the human resource organization, that's all it takes. If 9 out of 10 people don't think that the situation was harassment, but 1 person does, that's all it takes. In a workplace situation that's how it works, no questions aksed. Decisive action is taken to support the view of the 1 person . . . in a workpalce situation.

I believe that's how the NCAA and the Indian leader view this situation. For Ron His Horse, the logic of putting this situation to a vote does not apply. I believe that this is how the situation is viewed by some. I am not saying that I agree with this logic with regard to the nickname, but I liken their viewpoint to a workplace harassment sitation. To them the logic of . . . "let's see what the majority thinks", does not apply as it is offensive to some.

Unless people understand this viewpoint, right or wrong, I don't think that they understand where these groups are coming from. They do not view this as "Let's see what the majority thinks". Again, these are observations of the position that I believe these groups are coming from.

In any given workplace, a certain employee may harass someone and get away with it for a long time because said harassed person does NOT find it offensive and ultimately doesn't report it. However, that same situation may occur with the same harassing employee and a different employee who might find it offensive and would then report it.

Not saying that you believe in your example, but I can spin like a top as well.

[SiouxMeNow]

How in the hell are Native Americans supposed to end racism when we're the victims? PR blunders my a$$. So if by some miracle the nickname stays, NA's are going to be embraced by the dominant culture and racism ends and we all sing Kumbaya by the campfire? Wake up and smell the coffee people! NA's have always gotten the shaft from the man and always will. I'm bein real and you know it. If we have a chance to win a small skirmish, after gettin kicked for hundreds of years, then I'm all for it.

Dude - this is AMERICA! You can be anything you want to be if you work hard enough but it's ultimately up to you. If you want to play the "victim" card - go ahead! If you consider forcing UND to drop the Fighting Sioux nickname a "victory" - try to cash that check at a bank...it's worth nothing but if it makes you feel better - then fine! 10 years from now...you can say "I'm a Lakota/Dakota/Nakota Sioux!" and everyone will say "you're a what-now? who gives a sh*t!" -- just "bein real" right back at ya!

[redwing77]

Dude - this is AMERICA! You can be anything you want to be if you work hard enough but it's ultimately up to you. If you want to play the "victim" card - go ahead! If you consider forcing UND to drop the Fighting Sioux nickname a "victory" - try to cash that check at a bank...it's worth nothing but if it makes you feel better - then fine! 10 years from now...you can say "I'm a Lakota/Dakota/Nakota Sioux!" and everyone will say "you're a what-now? who gives a sh*t!" -- just "bein real" right back at ya!

The victim card is as much a part of the NA culture as the race card is a part of the African American culture.

The rez stands for more than a NA-dominant residential area. It stands for the man. The NA people can end this by simply moving or relocating or overhauling the place or getting rid of all things that the man of old did to them. They are no longer confined to the rez. They can go and do whatever they want.

They can't and won't because to go out and get what you deserve without it being handed to you removes the title of "victim" from you and therefore, if failure occurs, it's their own responsibility. The absence of someone other than themselves to blame is terrifying.

I'm happily still kicking after my people (6 million of them) were wiped out. Funny.... I don't have a vendetta against the Germans. Countless other Jews were killed by the Russians... Funny.... I don't have a vendetta against the Russians either. I guess I don't play the role of the victim pretty well.

Then again... I haven't had 100 years go by to let the victim card burn its ugly self into my society. I'm not helpless and I don't want other people to think I am. That's not the attitude the NA want us to believe. Their mantra seems to be "We're helpless because you made us. You must give us everything because we're too oppressed to save ourselves." It's blatantly untrue, but whatever makes them motivated to get out of bed in the morning....

Yeah, I'm racist. Whatever. People in the United States are only oppressed if they truly allow themselves to be. Hate your job? Get a new one. No jobs you like? Get an education and get a better one! See a problem? FIX IT to the best your abilities! Take responsibility for yourself including your successes and failures! If you get fired, it's probably something you did or did not do. If not, then get an explanation!

I'm so damn tired of this victim mentality. It's ruining their entire society and they're clinging to it like a stubborn toddler who doesn't want to give up his bottle for solid food.

[Chewey]

The victim card is as much a part of the NA culture as the race card is a part of the African American culture.

The rez stands for more than a NA-dominant residential area. It stands for the man. The NA people can end this by simply moving or relocating or overhauling the place or getting rid of all things that the man of old did to them. They are no longer confined to the rez. They can go and do whatever they want.

They can't and won't because to go out and get what you deserve without it being handed to you removes the title of "victim" from you and therefore, if failure occurs, it's their own responsibility. The absence of someone other than themselves to blame is terrifying.

I'm happily still kicking after my people (6 million of them) were wiped out. Funny.... I don't have a vendetta against the Germans. Countless other Jews were killed by the Russians... Funny.... I don't have a vendetta against the Russians either. I guess I don't play the role of the victim pretty well.

Then again... I haven't had 100 years go by to let the victim card burn its ugly self into my society. I'm not helpless and I don't want other people to think I am. That's not the attitude the NA want us to believe. Their mantra seems to be "We're helpless because you made us. You must give us everything because we're too oppressed to save ourselves." It's blatantly untrue, but whatever makes them motivated to get out of bed in the morning....

Yeah, I'm racist. Whatever. People in the United States are only oppressed if they truly allow themselves to be. Hate your job? Get a new one. No jobs you like? Get an education and get a better one! See a problem? FIX IT to the best your abilities! Take responsibility for yourself including your successes and failures! If you get fired, it's probably something you did or did not do. If not, then get an explanation!

I'm so damn tired of this victim mentality. It's ruining their entire society and they're clinging to it like a stubborn toddler who doesn't want to give up his bottle for solid food.

You're absolutely right. If any group would have a reason to gripe, it's Jewish people. They don't and they've been persecuted for thousands (not hundreds) of years and they've been highly successful for thousands of years.

[fourwindsboy]

You're absolutely right. If any group would have a reason to gripe, it's Jewish people. They don't and they've been persecuted for thousands (not hundreds) of years and they've been highly successful for thousands of years.

Ok, what do you think they would do if a school changed their name to the Fighting Jews or the Raging Hasidics? The jews would be makin some noise then. Course if that happened then you'd say they were complainin for nothing, they're bein crybabies, etc, etc......

[dead_rabbit]

Ok, what do you think they would do if a school changed their name to the Fighting Jews or the Raging Hasidics? The jews would be makin some noise then. Course if that happened then you'd say they were complainin for nothing, they're bein crybabies, etc, etc......

I'm not Jewish, and I certainly don't speak for them, but I'd be all for the Fighting Germans.

Another thing I'm for: If the Sioux Nation doesn't want UND to use the Fighting Sioux name (I do think it should be put to a vote, but I think the Sioux people will get effed by their own tribal elders, and no vote will be made), I hope that another NA tribe will step forward, and offer up the use of their name.

[Herd]

The "workplace" notion is a nice try until you remember the "FSU" exemption.

And "gettin' back at the man" is so clich

[The Sicatoka]

No one in the FSU "workplace" is claiming harassent, ...

Wrong.

First, the "workplace" is by definition an NCAA championship event, not a campus, or so sayeth the NCAA.

Next, certain members of the (albeit Oklahoma) Seminole Nation declared an issue with FSU. By your own words:

If the Action, the Joke, the Picture on the wall, etc . . . is offensive to one person ... that's all it takes. If 9 out of 10 people don't think that the situation was harassment, but 1 person does, that's all it takes.

We had that one person from the Seminole Nation just as we have that one from the Sioux Nation.

We have one person with a problem with it in the "workplace".

Yet, FSU got off.

[siouxprideforever]

My grandmother was a full blooded Lakota from Standing Rock. Not once did I ever hear her complain about her life or about life on the reservation. Please do not assume that we all see ourselves as victims. We were the Fighting Sioux! It is hard listening to those espouse that we are victims of the dominant society and that we must strike back to level the playing field. I do not believe that we were ever conquered, nor did we surrender. I was taught that we fought until there was no more fight, then if their was no other way we negotiated. It is also my understanding that it was that tenacity, that approach to adversity, as the reason the University chose to call its athletic teams the Fighting Sioux. I don't believe that there is any greater sense of flattery than to have an adversary adopt your identity. I would be offended if a school adopted the name of Custer or the 7th Calvary. Now those were some folks that didn't like Indians! Given the struggles back home, I find it hard to believe that this is an issue that the elders or the masses for that matter are overly concerned about. Unfortunately, taking it to a vote immediately makes it a political issue. Especially, since it wasn't that long ago that our Tribe supported the name. One of the bits of wisdom that my grandmother shared before her passing was to remind me that only a fool with argue with a fool. I choose not to argue but moreover hope that the parties involved can come to the table and discuss the issue free of political baggage with the purpose of leaving the table with a win/win proposition!

[Sioux-cia]

The work place harassment issues are fairly uniform as it is considered discrimination by the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other federal authority. There is a system in place to investigate allegations of work place harassment, i.e. EEO.

The mere fact that the NC$$ has allowed some schools such as FSU to keep their names, logos and mascots is evidence that Native American names, logos and mascots do not violate anyone's Civil rights. If Native American names and logos are hostile and abusive for one then they are for all; not just those that don't have tribal approval. Not all Seminole tribes approve of FSU's name, logo and mascot but because the Florida Seminoles are ok with it so is the NC$$.

The hyprocrisy of the NC$$ having a large corporate sponsor with a Native American name and logo is also very telling. As long as there is BIG money for the NC$$, it's ok.

Our logo is beautiful, designed by a Native American with symbolism within the colors of the feathers. The name Sioux is not derogatory as Native Americans refer to themselves as Sioux. We don't have a cartoon mascot or any mascot for that matter.

Those who believe that the Sioux name and logo are disrespectful don't see beyond the name and logo. The student athletes and students who wear the Sioux crest, do so proudly, respectfully and honorably.

[Riverman]

People in the United States are only oppressed if they truly allow themselves to be. Hate your job? Get a new one. No jobs you like? Get an education and get a better one! See a problem? FIX IT to the best your abilities! Take responsibility for yourself including your successes and failures! If you get fired, it's probably something you did or did not do. If not, then get an explanation!

This speaks volumes. And it's a formula that works!!!

[redwing77]

Ok, what do you think they would do if a school changed their name to the Fighting Jews or the Raging Hasidics? The jews would be makin some noise then. Course if that happened then you'd say they were complainin for nothing, they're bein crybabies, etc, etc......

I am Jewish and I think it would be hilarious.

Actually, I'm more for the Litigating Levites actually.

Perhaps the Marauding Maccabees?

The Rebellious Rabbis?

Then we can yell phrases like "Knock them on their tuchis!" And "Beat the goys!"

God forbid any Gentile player cheap shots a Fighting Jew! OY VEY! Such litigation!

[Sioux-cia]

I am Jewish and I think it would be hilarious.

Actually, I'm more for the Litigating Levites actually.

Perhaps the Marauding Maccabees?

The Rebellious Rabbis?

Then we can yell phrases like "Knock them on their tuchis!" And "Beat the goys!"

God forbid any Gentile player cheap shots a Fighting Jew! OY VEY! Such litigation!

You crack me up!!

[dagies]

It is also my understanding that it was that tenacity, that approach to adversity, as the reason the University chose to call its athletic teams the Fighting Sioux. I don't believe that there is any greater sense of flattery than to have an adversary adopt your identity.

This has always been the way I've looked at it except I wouldn't say that UND has "adopted the identity" so much as it has tried to associate with the identity. Let's face it, no one, including UND and those associated with the institution, is going to mistake UND sports teams as actual "Fighting Sioux". But like you said, to use the name in the context of sports is certainly meant to be flattering.

[Chewey]

Ok, what do you think they would do if a school changed their name to the Fighting Jews or the Raging Hasidics? The jews would be makin some noise then. Course if that happened then you'd say they were complainin for nothing, they're bein crybabies, etc, etc......

I seriously doubt that Jewish people would care at all. After all, the state of Israel is full of modern day warriors in that everyone must do 2 years in the military. I like the idea. The other teams could be Assyrians or Egyptians something attempting to stomp on our team and our team could open a whole lot of Old Testament whoop-ass on them just like Saul, David and Solomon. Of course, academia and the NC00 would not even care if Jewish people were offended. I can not think of a more anti-Jewish group than American academia, including the NC00.

[DamStrait]

Ok, what do you think they would do if a school changed their name to the Fighting Jews or the Raging Hasidics? The jews would be makin some noise then. Course if that happened then you'd say they were complainin for nothing, they're bein crybabies, etc, etc......

Yes, that makes sense, since North Dakota in the ancestoral homeland of the Jewish people...oh, wait...never mind. Hate to break it to you, Skippy, but you lost all credibility when you admitted that the real reason you want the name changed is to stick it to "the majority". It's also instructive to note that none of the anti-nicknamers have since posted trying to refute this as a reason to discontinue the name. If this were my website I'd ban a user that posts such racist garbage.