MinnesotaNorthStar Posted April 23, 2003 Author Share Posted April 23, 2003 Now I want to make a point to the Avs fans on this board (leif, elmdf (sp), etc...). I do not include you guys with the majority of Avs fans, I want to make that very clear. I forgot which one of you said that Kiszla is not a very good commentator, and that is good to hear. My roommate is an Avs fan too, and he agrees that Kiszla was out of line with the article. How soon we forget.....I didn't like the Avs before Kiszla's article, it just gave me more of a reason. I realize that it is probably a little unfair to lump all Avs fans together like that, but that has been my experience with them. Maybe I'm just meeting the wrong people. But, it was said earlier in the thread, by an Avs fan, that he may be writing to the public I'm sure it must be a little overwhelming for you and the other Avs fans on this board since you are obviously a minority. To address some of your other points...I am aware that every player does what they need to do to win. My point was that Forsberg is among the worst offenders in the league. I also saw Forsberg get "punched," if you can call it that, but trust me when I tell you that that was through the normal course of playing the game, and he more than likely deserved it for reasons stated previously. If you watch closely most of the time Forsberg gets punched or pushed, it's in retaliation for something HE did. However, I'm not saying that when the Wild players would get punched, they didn't do something to deserve it, either. Both teams got away with their share of penalties. Maybe I was unclear, as I meant to say that Forsberg was the dirty one, not the team(like Toronto ). IMO Foote, and Blake are just gritty defensemen protecting their goaltender, the same way every defenseman in the league does it. As far as the talking crap about the other team...I agree it is acceptable between rivals, but the Wild have been in the league for 3 years, they don't have any rivals yet. I also don't see how the Avs are the same way as Sioux in the late 90's. The Sioux had been around for years and have had bad teams, the Avs have yet to have one. As far as fairweatherism...It wouldn't be booing the team when they perform poorly, I've done this myself (Michigan Tech this year). My intent wasn't even to suggest fairweatherism would exist, rather a bad season would maybe humble some of the fans, and get rid of the "invincible" cocky attitude that exists. (Refer to my first paragraph about lumping fans together) BTW....I agree with your assesment on the Dallas Stars, as if it wasn't obvious...Go Ducks!! Anyways...my prediction for the Vancouver series (as you'll recall, I got this one right)...Wild in 6, but still a great series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPoS Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 how will he spin this tothe people of Denver?!?? WILD WIN!?!?!? MinnesotaNorthStar, we could all start an e-mail campaign and drown him in his own drivel! This guy can now go start to cover golf or midget wrestling for the rest of the hockey season, the lowly Wild beat his precious Avs! WPoS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Here's DummyBoy's latest spin on the Avs' loss. Link Okay, generally I like Forsberg, but whenever anybody got near him his head snapped back and he wilted like a little girl. Great talent, but also a great whiner. Glad the Wild, whatever that is , proved me wrong. Nice, hard driving win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I honestly think the Avs take tonight seriously for a change and come out fired up with revenge on their minds. Avs win 4-1. Not the outcome I want, but I just don't see the Wild holding up to take 3 in a row from one of the best teams in the NHL (prove me wrong boys!!) Sometimes its great to be wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatspin7 Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Reading that latest article Kiszla actually suggested that Forsberg might leave to go play in Sweeden? This guy is trully DUMB. I do agree with the fact that this upset could haunt the AVS for years to come. Lets see how much the Denver fans support thier team when they dont have a good year. Its about time that they have to deal with that. If they still sell out the Pepsi center when that happends Ill be shocked!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Reading that latest article Kiszla actually suggested that Forsberg might leave to go play in Sweeden? This guy is trully DUMB. Golf, not hockey: "Center Peter Forsberg must wonder why he continues to take the physical beating allowed in the NHL, when he could return to Sweden and play golf in the midnight sun." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmduf Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Hey, what say we make it best out of 9 games? okay? The Wild played gritty hockey last night, even though I didn't like the outcome it was fun to watch. I'm pulling for a Stars/Wild conference final. Maybe Minnesota can take out revenge on the old North Stars! I like Forsberg, he does play rough and sometimes tries to get the penalty call by exaggerating the hit he took. Not unlike a lot of players in the NHL. I've been hearing that he's just tired of playing and wants to retire and go back to Sweden. I have also heard that Roy might consider leaving, but I think he'll stay and collect the big $$$ on his contract extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streakygopher Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I was watching the Avalanche news conference. They had a look of shock on their faces. Apparently, this Kizla joker had the look of Shock and Awe himself...and what might he possibly right in response to it? Just that the Avs must have choked...couldn't be that at least for this 7-game series, the Wild was the better team! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streakygopher Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Sch...dog... What do you think of that?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmidtdoggydog Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Sch...dog... What do you think of that?! Very, very impressive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPoS Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 a few of the Gopher fans who happen to be Wild fans, imagine that, sent him the Simplson's Nelson sound bite: HA-ha! As to the Av's fans I saw on TV last night, while I don't know any personally, they seem to like one chant and one chant only: Let's go Av's. Every time a Av's player get touched it deserved to be a penalty, but any hit on a Wild player was completely legal and called for. I have NEVER, and I have seen a lot (especially in the mirror), seen such a homeristic fan base. DO they understand hockey at all or are they just there to see "their" team win without understanding you CAN get hit while in control of the puck? I said ove ron POI, revenge is a dish best served cold, this collumist got his ICE cold, the way he deserved. WPoS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 As to the Av's fans I saw on TV last night, while I don't know any personally, they seem to like one chant and one chant only: Let's go Av's. Every time a Av's player get touched it deserved to be a penalty, but any hit on a Wild player was completely legal and called for. I have NEVER, and I have seen a lot (especially in the mirror), seen such a homeristic fan base. DO they understand hockey at all or are they just there to see "their" team win without understanding you CAN get hit while in control of the puck? Thought you'd be well familiar with this. I will say this. After the winning goal, they showed a shot of the huddle of Wild players on the ice. There is a fan standing right over the team and clapping. I thought it must have been a Wild fan until about the 3rd replay, then I see the guy has an Avs jacket on. Pretty cool, I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leifolson Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Reading that latest article Kiszla actually suggested that Forsberg might leave to go play in Sweeden? This guy is trully DUMB. Actually , I guess, Forsberg has been talking all year (probably not too loudly) that he'd like to finish his hockey career playing for his father in Sweden, and contemplated leaving the US after this season wehn he becomes a free agent. Hopefully, he'll decide against it and return for a few more years. Roy is also once again talking retirement and claims to have his mind 90% made up in one direction or the other, but hasnt made any remarks pointing for or against. I don't think that Aebischer is really ready to take over as the fulltime goalie so they'll probably have to hope there is a big boy somewhere ready to leave his current team to join the Avs. Could be a bit of a different team next year, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaNorthStar Posted April 24, 2003 Author Share Posted April 24, 2003 Did anyone catch Around the Horn...2nd topic of the day!!! That's a record for a hockey subject I believe Woody Page of the Denver Post said that the Wild deserved to win the series, while Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe said it was bad for hockey. Ryan was pissed that no original six teams were left in the post season (one of which being his Bruins). According to Ryan, if New Jersey wins the Cup...it will be the end of hockey (or something like that). Well, the Wild will have to do something about that . Nice to hear about the classy fan in Denver...I knew they couldn't all be bad (my guess is he knew something about hockey ). Here's what I think will happen in the next round: Wild over Vancouver in 6 Dallas over Anaheim in 7 (though I hope I'm wrong) Ottawa over Philadelphia in 5 New Jersey over Tampa Bay in 6 First round I was 3 of 4 in the East...I thought Toronto would pull it out, and 2 of 4 in the West, nobody outside of Anaheim fans themselves had them, and I was thinking St. Louis over Vancouver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmerduf Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Woody doesn't know hockey. But he's not much of a homer, and will give the other team credit if they win. Although, he does hate the Oakland Raiders. As well he should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaNorthStar Posted April 24, 2003 Author Share Posted April 24, 2003 Reading Woody's column in the Post...He seems to be more of comic relief in this one. "You can't blame the Avs downfall on a blonde. Brunette did them in." Also, refering to the Pepsi Center as The Crushed Can and The Can...comedy It was also nice to see him give credit where credit is due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Ryan's just ticked that the Bruins have sucked for years, and that Borque had to go to the Avs to win a Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaNorthStar Posted April 24, 2003 Author Share Posted April 24, 2003 Ryan's just ticked that the Bruins have sucked for years, and that Borque had to go to the Avs to win a Cup. That's the first thought that crossed my mind too when he said it I also want to say, since I've been pretty adament about my opinion of the Avs in this thread, is that while I do hate them (with a passion....obviously), I still do respect the program and their players (for the most part). I don't believe I could call myself a hockey fan if I did not. That said I'm glad that the Wild knocked them off and made Kiszla, and I'm sure at least a few fans, eat their words and garauntees about this series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commodore Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 This post is going to be lengthy, but I've got to show you this letter. It was written by a coworker of mine (also a high school hockey coach and Wild season ticket holder) to Kiszla in response to his articles which berate Granato and the Wild. Personally, I think it's great and maybe it will stir up some good discussion. Disclaimer-- he does take one pot-shot at Belfour which, as a die-hard Sioux fan, I wish he hadn't made... but it's there as an aside to make a larger (and more valid) point. Don't flame this letter just to defend Eddie: "Mr. Kiszla, and others who detract from the Wild: I first took notice of Jacques Lemaire in 1995 when he coached an enthusiastic Devils club to an upset Cup sweep over Bowman's Red Wings. In four games, you saw mastery at work. Unfortunately for him and for the game itself, many who don't understand hockey took the concept of the "neutral zone trap" and carried it off to their uninformed newspaper articles, where they berated the slow clogging style of play, and railed against the defensive brilliance - to the point where even the NHL called for rule changes. Despite the fact that every single team in the NHL adopted some sort of "trapping", and despite the fact that commentators and journalists love to cling to the term "trap" and make all sorts of complicated and other times oversimplified explanations for what really amounts to a combination of the pro forecheck, backchecking in general, and an overall commitment to team defense; despite all of this Jacques has been maligned by many as someone who slowed the game down, brought boredom and empty seats to arenas, and ruined any chance of the 100 point season. Take heed, take notice, listen to your eyes and ears, watch the Wild... Watch, wake up, and try to learn despite your disadvantage at not living in the state of hockey where you would never grow up with such misconceptions. I have watched an overpaid Avalanche team clutch, grab, and hold young stars like Marion Gaborik at least as much as Willie Mitchell and Wes Walz were sent out on the ice with the mission of stopping Peter Forsberg, who I must say deserves an A-plus for his acting ability and uncanny knack of having Kerry Fraser in his back pocket most of the time. I have listened to Adam Foote whine about the boring style, but have noted that he is amongst the first to use interference and holding tactics to cover up for his skating shortcomings in his own end. I have read and heard things from outside the State of Hockey about the Wild's inactivity at the trade deadline for not picking up such superstars as the aged Phil Housley or the wunderkind Steve Thomas... And while nobody outside of Minnesota seems to understand the team philosophy that the Wild were built on, it bears repeating. To bring someone in, you have to scratch someone. Yes, there were some mid-level talented players available, but who on the Wild hasn't earned the right to wear his sweater in the playoffs? Name one. I challenge anyone to find a player on that roster that hasn't committed himself 100% heart and soul to this season. I challenge because I know the answer. There isn't a man amongst them that doesn't belong there. This point bears merit because it is the essence of the difference between the Avalanche and the Wild. While Forsberg, Roy, and Blake skip their optional practices, leaving underpaid teammates like Hejduk and Tanguay wondering why they are there working their tails off, the Wild shows up in unison, not a man knows what an "optional" skate is, because there aren't any. Why? Is Lemaire a dictator? No, far from it. Because the Wild is a team and they all want to be there. Doug Risebrough has brought in players over the past few years and he has always stated the number one priority whether it's a draft or a trade or a call-up. Does this player fit in our locker room? If not, no amount of talent will get you an ugly green sweater. Doug knows the concept of team. Jacques knows the concept of team. I wonder how many other organizations out there now are scrutinizing this thing they call the "Wild" and wondering 'how can we build something like that?' Ask yourself this before you criticize so freely with your tongue and your pen. Listen to Lemaire... Believe only what your eyes see before you. Is Marion Gaborik a superstar in the making? After scoring a scant handful of goals after the allstar break, many outside of MN were ready to say he is years away from being a top contributor. Fans with a knowledge and sense of the game know that he has started to draw an awful lot of defensive attention; and well he should, for he is truly a top player in the league right now. Mario Lemieux himself said he is one of the top five players in the world right now. But, the critics always say, show it in playoffs, and I agree. Well, in 7 games, he has 4 goals and 2 assists. Six points isn't bad, isn't at the top of the league, but when you look at the timing of his efforts and how he factored on all three goals in the OT victory in game 6, you'd have to be a moron not to realize his impact and potential. Interestingly, Jacques has handled coaching this young phenom with a master's touch. Beethoven and Mozart would be proud of how he has finely crafted this symphony on ice. By teaching Marion defensive responsibility first, slowly working his game into a complete one, we have a young star who can kill penalties, and regularly play at the end of periods and in critical situations that go beyond his obvious skill-driven talent. Can you say the same for Kovalchuk? By the way, who is Rick DiPietro? Defensively his game is worth noting - of the 12 players ahead of him in playoff scoring, 5 are now on the golf course. How did they help their clubs? Was that really Mogilny shooting into his own net last night? Yes, I think it was, the same regular season, third period hero who Lamoriello and anyone who watched him disappear in the Devils' Cup defense knew was no longer a playoff asset. Yes, the same Mogilny whose five goals lit the hearts of the Leafs faithful, but whose sixth went in the wrong net. Yes, that Mogilny, the type of big name, big money player, who the lowly Wild would never have the courage or savvy to sign. Well, Alex, enjoy your vodka with Eddie the Eagle, because you two will make one hell of a tandem on the golf course. The Wild at 20 million dollars, dead last in the league, are playing deeper than the Colorado Avalanche, the Detroit Red Wings, and the Toronto Maple Leafs, who combine for team payrolls of about 183 million dollars US. It isn't worth much discussion but the Rangers, Montreal, and LA combine for about 163 million dollars, and none of them made the playoffs with two of the three playing in the weaker eastern conference where you have the privilege of seeing the likes of Florida, Carolina, and Washington on your schedule on a routine basis. Interestingly, 15 out of the top 20 paid players in the league are no longer playing after one round of playoffs. Will the league wake up and build teams instead of hiring superstars who won't pay the price? I doubt it, but I'm glad my team did. Officiating. Before anyone says anyting about officiating let's get this clear. The Avs go ahead goal on their power play with Hendrickson in the box has got to go down as the worst playoff call in modern history. Anyone disputing that needs their head checked. If anyone got breaks, throughout the series, it was the Avalanche. And, with their multiple power plays, they didn't convert often enough against the only team in the league using a goaltending tandem. But, keep complaining about the trap, even when Lemaire's boys flourished under the crackdown on interference this year and the emphasis on the skating game. Just because the Wild don't score much doesn't mean they trap all the time. What it means is they have a lot of young hard working players and a mix of guys who just dont' have a lot of scoring ability. And, we are glad they haven't jacked the fans in the stands to pay for prima donnas who bow out early. Will this be the case every year, this miracle defeat of Goliath? Of course not. Lastly - I will not even discuss other coaches or management in the league much here. We know in Minnesota that we have the best coach in the league bar none. Frankly with Bowman out of the game, nobody else even comes close. But I will not even get into the mismatch that creates versus other clubs, because I think guys like Tony Granato are good natured, hard working fellas who get fired all the time because of the shortcomings of their players. Frankly, doing a rip job on your coach who was your hero a few weeks ago for getting your team their ninth bought and paid for division title is a little bit shabby. Maybe that's just the Minnesota nice in me, but I doubt it, because we are pretty hard on people here if they are idiots. Idiots like Pleau who doesn't get a goalie the past five years then thinks Osgood is the answer, and idiots like Quinn who can't fill out a lineup card and hasn't addressed a pathetic defense, who admittedly cannot be faulted for being surprised at their own 5.5 million dollar superstar shooting pucks into their seemingly soccer-sized net. I close by repeating an earlier question: Will this be the case every year, this miracle defeat of Goliath? Of course not. But, to all detractors, all season long, I suggest one thing. Watch the Wild and try to learn something about hockey, and enjoy it for what it is, the greatest sport on earth. Because if you live in Toronto, New York (either sub-par club), Detroit, or Denver, you sure as hell won't be watching your team." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmduf Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 because I think guys like Tony Granato are good natured, hard working fellas who get fired all the time because of the shortcomings of their players. There was a news conference with Avs GM Pierre Lacroix yesterday. He said that Granato's job is safe and also said that he was happy with the performance of his team. He also said he was disappointed in the outcome of the series, but doesn't really have any regrets. Pierre is pretty good about publicly backing his coaches and players, but it will be interesting to see what is the final outcome of the Avs early ejection from the playoffs. Will Forsberg and Roy come back? Will Pierre be given the green light to spend more $$$ to sign some big name free agents? It's like a soap opera here in Colorado! I agree with the statements made about the "neutral zone trap". There's nothing illegal about it, and if it works you would be an idiot not to do it. I also agree that Jacques Lemaire could be the best coach left in the playoffs. He has the experience, which could make the Wild run pretty interesting. I'm pulling for them now. I'd love to see a Wild/Stars conference final! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffj Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Has a good rant going there. Who has time to write something that long? Good read though. Agree it is unfair to be knocking Granato. I am live near his home town, so have followed him a bit. I think his progression is based on merit and achievement. It has always been a mystery to me how coaches (with no general manager type responsibilities) can get multi-million $$ players to play together well and totally sacrifice themselves to win. In reality, they have no real leverage over the players. One of the problems with pro-sports today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Disclaimer-- he does take one pot-shot at Belfour which, as a die-hard Sioux fan, I wish he hadn't made... but it's there as an aside to make a larger (and more valid) point. He takes potshots at a lot of people (far more than the original column that so upset everyone). He insults by name: players -- Belfour, Forsberg, Foote, Housley, Kovalchuk, Mogilny, Osgood teams -- Avs, Leafs, Wings, Rangers, Canadiens, Kings, Caps, Canes, Panthers, Islanders conferences -- the entire Eastern Conference I think this letter writer is just as much a homer as the original columnist. Rather than just putting down the Wild's opponent, he wildly and ramblingly derided everyone who happens not to have made it this far in the playoffs this year, including a lot of players and teams with a lot more success and history than the Wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 I think the Commodore did a really good job of saying what a lot of us probably thought. Spending big money doesn't alway mean your going to win a cup, perfect example is the New York Rangers. They spent a lot of money and did not even make the playoffs. Its all about team... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leifolson Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 I think this letter writer is just as much a homer as the original columnist. Rather than just putting down the Wild's opponent, he wildly and ramblingly derided everyone who happens not to have made it this far in the playoffs this year, including a lot of players and teams with a lot more success and history than the Wild. I'm afraid I have to agree, Jim. This letter writer goes a lot further than Kiszla actually goes.. Why not stay on topic and purely point out the faults in in Kiszla's column...that would have been quite a bit more effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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