iramurphy

Continued: I believe UND alumni, most GF community and business leaders, most athletes and coaches (past and present) no longer support keeping the name at all costs. .I believe the majority of Native Americans at Spirit Lake and possibly still at Standing Rock do support keeping the name but not so many if it means harm to UND and UND athletics. Too many of the zealots lost your credibility when you weren't willing to lose a hockey game over the issue. It means you don't want UND and the athletes to pay the price for something out of their control and I agree. Chewey is the exception. He would take the loss. I disagree, but at least he is a man of his convictions. I have gotten to the point of lets win the hockey game. This competition is the purpose of intercollegiate athletics. Yababy you haven't offered any solutions. IF you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Shawn O, let me know what you supposedly are going to refuse to donate each year and I will verify it with UND and then find someone to help me cover it. IF people aren't smart enough to see this is not the doing of UND or UND athletics then they just aren't very smart. If you want to punish UND athletes and coaches for things they have no control over then good riddance. Really what is so important about this particular name. It isn't about the Native Americans, they didn't step up when one tribe could have resolved this in 2005. It isn't Kelly, Faison Thomas or Kupchella. They are a cowards target. The enemy is still the NCAA, They are a private organization that voted over 400 to 6 to support this policy, YA baby go negotiate with them, but you maybe haven't noticed some pretty talented people and about $1,000,000 have failed to convince the NCAA, What makes you think more legislation (already tried and failed) or a lawsuit (courts have previously ruled in the favor of NCAA having the right to make their own rules and if you don't like them leave). This is a waste of time, resources and emotional energy. Lets go cheer on our hockey team. Go Sioux!

We no longer have "overwhelming support" for the name. I believe

Not sure what the announcement will be. Kelly promised some of the FB recruits we would be breaking ground on the practice facility this year. Altru is supposedly finalizing some sort of donation but I don't know what it is for. That is long past due and in my opinion anything less than $10,000,000 isn't enough. They apparently raised enough fuss to convince Kelly and Wynne to decline the $10,000,000 Sanford donation which would have gotten phase started.

In 2005 FSU had the same requirements UND did. Get one tribe to support you. FSU, Utah and Central Michigan all got a representative tribe to support them. We didn't I am not sure why you think they needed help from their legislators unless there is evidence that is how they got the tribal support.

No they couldn't. Not sure what the NCAA would do, but I would not let anyone associated with UND officials, the team, cheerleaders or band have anything with Native American imagery. Not worth the chance and it would accomplish nothing. The team should not give any of this a thought, They need to focus on the games at hand. This is no longer a hockey team issue. Their job is to play hockey and they need to stay focused on that. The fans may do whatever we like. I am pretty sure Hakstol and the coaches are focused on winning and won't waste their time with the logo issue.

I would hope we have more intelligence than to have to rely on the "F bomb" to make our point. It lacks class and would be evidence we are a bunch of buffoons.

You are correct (thus more evidence that the name and logo are irrelevant to winning games). As Al Davis said "just win baby". These kids will play in practice jerseys, I don't think they really care, they need to be focused on the game and playing their best hockey of the season.

So should I say "baa baa baa" ? Are we dedicated to keeping the name or not ? If this is about standing up to the NCAA and fighting for the rights of Native Americans then lets stand up and take a bullet for the cause. Otherwise, I don't think you or I should be telling the athletes and the school how much or how little they are going to be hurt. The sanctions as they stand will indeed hurt. Potential loss of playoff games is a big deal. Our MBB team beat two teams in the tournament this year. Our womens team was pretty darn good. Our FB team was 8-3 and will be a better team against better competition next fall. The battle should continue but not at the expense of what the sanctions do to UND athletics and UND. The thought of forfeiting a hockey playoff game is no more ridiculous than giving up home FB sites. Will the NCAA screw with us when it comes to pairings and selection for different sports? Not sure how they can, but do you trust them and is it worth the risk? Name is not more important to hockey fans than other fans. The name has been part of UND FB before the hockey team existed. Errol Mann the former UND kicker who played in the NFL for a number of years was irate when he read Dale Lennon's letter recommending we drop the name. This is not and has never been a hockey issue. My goofy idea of wearing logo jerseys and taking the hit was to show some of you the sanctions are real and they will hurt. If the sanctions were that we can't wear the logo for playoffs I would say keep the name. Because it involves giving up home playoff advantage for FB or other sports and Women's hockey, that in and by itself makes it unacceptable. The damage is too much. Let SL take the NCAA to court but keep the friggin politicians and mandates out of the equation. Once you mandate keeping the name through legislation, then we don't have the flexibility to fix things if we need to.

We always need those guys who will do anything for the team. Dirty job but someones got to do it.

Standing up to the NCAA and accepting a forfeit would destroy UND hockey. If UND would be crazy enough to wear the logo jerseys and accept the forfeit, we would have kids jump ship off this present team and we would lose committed recruits. We would have trouble ever returning to the quality of team we have been. You would really see UND hockey tradition destroyed by this issue. The name and logo are clearly not UND hockey nor UND athletics but only a very small part of the tradition of UND athletics. It is the players, the coaches, the fans, the University and the Alumni and communities that support us that make up the tradition. Having said that, I will wear my logo gear just like I always do.

I have no doubt in my mind those jerks would require UND to forfeit the Saturday game and I wouldn't take a chance. It isn't that easy to get this far. As you noted new jerseys without the logo will likely create some discussion.

Well then Chewey, I respect your opinion. I disagree cuz I was an athlete and I would want to compete and win a National title and I would rather wear no logo than lose a game forfeiting the game rather than making a team earn it. I would rather have someone else fight with the politicians and the NCAA because we aren't on a level playing field, but good for you. Your points are well taken. The NCAA does little for the multiple violations we see in D1 athletics but punishes a school for trying to honor citizens of the state in a respectful manner. Load of crap, but thus far the courts seem to agree they have the power. Go Sioux!

After all of the accusations from Frank Burgraff, Fetch, Dave K. and friends I would like to pose a question. Is this really about the downtrodden Native Americans and their rights? Are we really going to stand up to the NCAA? Those of us who have been called cowards or sheep because we see the bigger picture and the importance of putting UND and UND athletics in a better postion to succeed have decided no matter how we feel about the name, the risk is too real. Will those of you who claim this is more important than UND athletics, demand UND wear the logo jerseys for the upcoming NCAA playoffs and then accept the NCAA penalty of forfeiting the game? If UND would wear the logo jerseys it would do more than anything thus far, to bring this to a national level and expose the NCAA hypocrisy. Can you imagine the media madness if a University made such a stand against the biased policies of the NCAA and was willing to risk a National Championship in order to make our point and stand up for the rights of the Sioux nation? If you would do that , then I may disagree, but I respect your opinion no matter how misguided and you have the courage of your convictions. I would like Frank Burgraff to publically demand UND wear the jerseys if he really believes in this cause. Otherwise he is just a mouthy 4th line aggitator and loses his credibility. Are you folks dedicated to this issue or not? If so, you should be calling for UND to wear the logo jerseys as a matter of principle. If not, then you are not committed to the cause and just making noise. To be willing to let the punishments hurt others and not you or your favorite team, would be cowardice in my book . Otherwise, it is clearly time to drop the name and move on and I am not sure I know of a better example to try and get some of you to see what is at stake. On a personal note Fetch, if you are going to the regionals and still want that beer, I buy you that beer and a few more as long as you don't drive me nuts. I'll be at Embassy Suites

It seems the idea has the AC pissants excited and they are calling some guy named Ira names (go figure). UND doesn't blame the issue on the AC. UND and the SBoHE wants to move on. We didn't get the required approval from the tribes and have been trying to retire the name. The legislature and some of our citizens are trying mandate UND keep the name. It isn't right for the NCAA to sanction UND for things out of their control. What the NCAA did in the southern states, whose legislators mandated continued use of the rebel flag, was to sanction the state . Some AC fans consider similar action against the state of N. Dak. preposterous and think it is a good idea to support the petitioners and the referendum. They may wish to rethink that one. I doubt the NCAA would go that far, but if the NCAA wants to put the issue to rest once and for all that is likely all it would take on their part. Fans of both schools and U of Mary and Minot would vote against it. The AC folks may consider that trying to screw UND athletics may not be worth all the fun they are having. The NCAA is private organization run by University presidents. I wouldn't bet on anything it may or may not do.

The petition to change the constitution is the dangerous one. That would give the legislature the legal authority they don't ha Sorry I was referring to two posts from yesterday but most of you shoudl get my point.

These last two posts hit the nail on he head. The NCAA will penalize UND and should be penalizing the State of N. Dak. I would recommend a letter writing campaign to the NCAA leadership asking them to come out publically stating the sanctions will be against all NCAA schools in the state of N. Dak. similar to the southern states with the rebel flags. That should get our pals from the AC to re-think what a dumb move it is to vote to support or sign these petitions. That should also garner help from the Bismarck area because U of Mary would be penalized as well. UND has done everthing it was supposed to do. Time to get political with the politicians.

Load of crap Dave. Lets make an appointment with Mussman and if he states you are correct, then I will donate $1,000 to the program on the spot. If he doesn't then you agree to leave Siouxsports.com and work to retire the name. As a former UND athlete and coach we do not want people associated with the program that would mistate the facts like you did. If you are so sure of your "inside sources" then PC me and I will make the arrangements. otherwise quit the crap. Being dishonest only hurts your cause. If you would rather, we can make the same appointment with Hakstol after the season. He has more important priorities right now than to meet with a couple of rubes like us til after the season.

Ok Fetch,I'll buy. Would be worth the price of a few of your favorite cold ones to see if you really exist. (don't bring your guns though).

Don't tell me someone has let you have guns, Fetch!!!!

Dog crap and the name are not related. My point is that the host doesn't want us coming in to their house with something they don't wish to clean up, but having said that, I stand corrected I could have used a better analogy. Thanks for the heads up.

So I get what the name has done for Native Americans. (Programming, marketing value, etc.). What has the name done for UND??? Over the years unless someone has tried to take it away no one has really paid much attention to the name. We use it as a logo and name. It has cost us a lot of money, heartache and criticism. We have put up with that over the last 45 years. It isn't that those from the outside don't understand, they don't believe us and they don't care. In their world, they don't wish to associate with this particular ethnic group and have the legal authority to dictate that we can't either. I believe that is a biased policy but they don't care about my opinion anymore than you do. Those who could have helped us were too late. Now they are willing to hurt UND athletics to try and recapture what they didn't care enough about to act on when it would have made a difference. You aren't going to be part of the conference the athletes, coaches and UND is. That conference wants us to get our act together before we come on board and that isn't asking too much. Fetch if you have been walikng around in dog !@#$, it isn't unreasonable for your host to expect you to take your shoes off or clean them before you enter their house.

Dave, What they do is not illegal. There is no law preventing them from doing what they do. Their authority has been challenged in courts before and the courts decided in their favor. The NCAA is not a government entity. It is a private organization that makes their own rules. We don't like the rules and I understand that you think this is so important to some that we should drop athletics rather than play by their rules, but stick to the facts. What they do is not illegal.

Not sure how you can even have an opinion when you are so misinformed. The Great West is disbanding. Who is the dumbass who tells you stupid stuff like the sanctions are temporary? Anyone who is smart enough to use a computer should be smarter than that. The only people I can say "OK I disagree but you are entitiled to that opinion", are those who have a clear understanding of the facts and that UND would need to move to the NAIA to have any intercollegiate athletics and still think calling our athletic teams the Fighting Sioux is more important.They don't care if our hockey team sinks to a level of those teams who make the playoffs every 25 years and our other athletic teams play Dickinson State, Minot State, or Jamestown College. If you don't get that, then you shouldn't have forged an opinion quite yet. Get the facts first. Losing Track Meets, Home hockey playoffs for women or losing recruits in all sports are not small. Ask any coach across the country if they can afford to have a couple of down recruiting years and everyone of them will tell you they can't. Don't be so goofy!

Where will they find you to tell you?? (I doubt that would even make a difference). The people who matter most with regards to the NCAA sanctions are the UND athletes, coaches, students, boosters, fans, University employees, Alumni and the Grand Forks and N.Dak. communities. Taht does include our reservations, but they don't have the biggest stake in this issue and they didn't care enough about it to speak out when in 2005 they could have stated their support and we would not be sanctioned. There was nothing you or I could have done because the NCAA makes the rules.This issue is about the name for the athletic teams. No more and no less. Why would you conclude someone would be spineless because they don't wish to spend time and resources screwing a dead horse (or pissing into the wind if you prefer)? Give us an opponent and something on the line and most of us will fight. Who do you wish to fight? The NCAA says they are not going to fight, they are going to declare themselves rulers and make the rules. No one to fight! (Not sure most of us care to be called spineless by people who probably have never had to lay it on the line when it counted).

No, the name doesn't stay. We are talking about athletic teams, not the rights of the oppressed around the world. If UND is to remain one of the finest institutions of higher education in the upper midwest, we also benefit from quality atheltic and music programs. If we don't have a conference for virtually all sports and we handicap hockey, then we are placing barriers to the success of the programs. The name is irrelevant to that success and always has been. It has been a big part of what we as athletes and fans identify with but the traditions and the energy from the fans is about the teams, players and our ability as fans to identify with their successes or even failures. we will still be able to do that after the name is gone. We will still wear whatever jersey or logo we wish. The enemy is not UND, the SBoHE, or for that matter even most of those who prefer to keep the name. It is the NCAA and we are in their yard playing with their ball and we play by their rules. The vast majority of UND fans and alumni when they are given the facts, see this and are concerned that too many well meaning people, led by those who have strong but misguided convictions will lead to a disaster. With regards to the rights of our Native American friends, they didnt' move on the issue when it would have taken only one tribe, nor in the three years they had after the NCAA gave us a temporary reprieve. They have sat on the sidelines until their only recourse is litigation. They need to leave UND uot of it. I hope they succeed agaisnt the NCAA but the courts have ruled over the years that the NCAA is a private club and you don't ahve to belong. Play by thier rules or join the NAIA. Anyone who thinks hockey as we know it will survive NCAA sanctions is fooling themselves. That is OK just don't try and fool others with unfounded statements. Go Sioux! Easy to still say, the NCAA can't stop any of us from our right to free speech. I will wear my Sioux logos this weekend at the hockey games. Won't matter to our team or the NCAA. Just isn't a priority to our teams. It is more so an issue with our hockey franternity because of the gratitude we all have for the Englestad family and their gifts to UND. The arena next door for BB and VB is also a gift from the Englestad family.