[TRex]

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Dec 19 2007, 06:52 PM, said:

ScottM, on Dec 19 2007, 09:12 AM, said:

Sure, Dana.

No, no, no. Not a writer. Still in school at some level. Don't forget, this poster informed us over the summer that he and his classmates had already discussed this (presumbably, that was so the rest of us would be spared the heavy lifting of actually thinking for ourselves); and they concluded that Sioux had to go and something "nice and neutral" should be adopted instead.

You know, like "Pork Chop". Something everybody can get behind. Non-controversial. A name nobody can say is demeaning....



BTW, you can read this week's Sports Illustrated for some absolutely priceless rationalization about Pork Chop. Apparently the minor league team thinks its absolutely okay to just rename their mascot at any time. So their new nickname will be rotated out any day now I guess.

While you weren't specific, I'm assuming that this little outburst is somehow directed at me. I will inform you that I am no longer in school, and have graduated for some time now. Well employed using my Poli Sci degree, I might add. I just love how anyone who supports the Native Americans in there quest to rid UND of a racist logo will be ridiculed. I said a long time back that the Sioux name would be retired and I was right What I can't figure out is why we seemingly have refocused our attention from finding a new name that conveys what we are at UND to bickering over keeping the old name. BTW, since you aren't even a UND grad, I don't see where you even have a horse to race in this event.

[Oxbow6]

TRex, on Dec 19 2007, 11:22 PM, said:

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Dec 19 2007, 06:52 PM, said:

ScottM, on Dec 19 2007, 09:12 AM, said:

Sure, Dana.

No, no, no. Not a writer. Still in school at some level. Don't forget, this poster informed us over the summer that he and his classmates had already discussed this (presumbably, that was so the rest of us would be spared the heavy lifting of actually thinking for ourselves); and they concluded that Sioux had to go and something "nice and neutral" should be adopted instead.

You know, like "Pork Chop". Something everybody can get behind. Non-controversial. A name nobody can say is demeaning....



BTW, you can read this week's Sports Illustrated for some absolutely priceless rationalization about Pork Chop. Apparently the minor league team thinks its absolutely okay to just rename their mascot at any time. So their new nickname will be rotated out any day now I guess.

While you weren't specific, I'm assuming that this little outburst is somehow directed at me. I will inform you that I am no longer in school, and have graduated for some time now. Well employed using my Poli Sci degree, I might add. I just love how anyone who supports the Native Americans in there quest to rid UND of a racist logo will be ridiculed. I said a long time back that the Sioux name would be retired and I was right What I can't figure out is why we seemingly have refocused our attention from finding a new name that conveys what we are at UND to bickering over keeping the old name. BTW, since you aren't even a UND grad, I don't see where you even have a horse to race in this event.

We are the FIGHTING SIOUX!! That conveys what WE are at UND. The general public thinks so, the majority of those on the reservations thinks so, but a few PC (Poli-Sci educated??) objectioners are once again trying to ram down the throats of the majority an "I'll show you" agenda. Read thru the many threads on this topic, read the many articles sited that show that the real issues of those involved, i.e. NAs, are once again being glossed over so a few who feel they have been "abused" can become powerful. Racist logo is an OPINION by some. You really should be a little more objective from a societial value standpoint when trying to argue your case. When those who are claiming racist logo are the same ones that are basically leading their own people down the same road of unchangable dispair and hopelessness, I will voice my opinion, as will others, on how obsurd we feel this nickname/logo argument has become when you look at the totality of what NAs are dealing with. Come to me with some quote or study on how His Horse Is Thunder is going to provide food for undernurished children, or proper heat for the elderly on the reservation without saying "we need more money" and I'll listen to you, but in the mean time you come across as some arrogant, look at my degree, pinhead PC liberal.

[Diggler]

TRex, on Dec 19 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

While you weren't specific, I'm assuming that this little outburst is somehow directed at me. I will inform you that I am no longer in school, and have graduated for some time now. Well employed using my Poli Sci degree, I might add. I just love how anyone who supports the Native Americans in there quest to rid UND of a racist logo will be ridiculed. I said a long time back that the Sioux name would be retired and I was right What I can't figure out is why we seemingly have refocused our attention from finding a new name that conveys what we are at UND to bickering over keeping the old name. BTW, since you aren't even a UND grad, I don't see where you even have a horse to race in this event.

It's a racist logo? Really? I can't only assume this logo is also racist. The guy has grey skin! No white guy has grey skin unless he's dead. That's a gross misrepresentation of your average Minuteman and UMass should be forced to get rid of that logo.
The Sioux name has been retired? Really? I must have missed that. Do you have a link? Thanks!
If you want the bickering to end, why don't you should stop arguing with us? Problem solved.

[Goon]

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Dec 19 2007, 09:06 PM, said:

Goon, on Dec 14 2007, 09:38 PM, said:

Quote

...Williams, whose undergraduate degree was in computer science, began studying sociology in graduate school, and his interests naturally led him to American Indian sports nicknames...

Wait a minute. His interests NATURALLY led him to nicknames?

Which part is natural? An undergrad in Computer Science? (The fact that he took that undergrad and went on to grad school for sociology is interesting in and of itself.) The grad work in Sociology?

Are we to assume that everyone with a BS from North Dakota in Computer Science who go on for a Masters or doctorate in Sociology should study "American Indian sports nicknames"??

That one is a head shaker, Computer science to Sociology. What it should say is his personal bias lead him to the American Indian Sports Names. Also, his studies in Computer Science lead him to studies in anarchy?

[LeftyZL]

Just found this article, not relating to the Sioux Name Issue, but relating to the Sioux People instead. Apparently, Lakota people are no longer U.S. Citizens: Lakota Indians Withdraw U.S. Treaties

[Oxbow6]

LeftyZL, on Dec 20 2007, 09:08 AM, said:

Just found this article, not relating to the Sioux Name Issue, but relating to the Sioux People instead. Apparently, Lakota people are no longer U.S. Citizens: Lakota Indians Withdraw U.S. Treaties

Interesting, but don't think for a second those NAs that want their independence from the US will cut off their cash flow from the government they are supposedly wanting independence from.

But I am sure TRex will have some scientific study as to why this is a legitimate right by those sited in the article?

[The Sicatoka]

LeftyZL, on Dec 20 2007, 07:08 AM, said:

Just found this article, not relating to the Sioux Name Issue, but relating to the Sioux People instead. Apparently, Lakota people are no longer U.S. Citizens: Lakota Indians Withdraw U.S. Treaties

With no treaty:

.... Doesn't that mean the US State Department would have to negotiate the Sioux nickname*?
and more importantly
.... Doesn't that mean we're still at war?


Where's William T. Sherman when you need him ....

The bad news for Ron McNeil (aka His Horse is Thunder): Today's 7th Cavalry has armor.



* states can't negotiate with foreign entities

[Chewey]

The Sicatoka, on Dec 20 2007, 11:47 AM, said:

LeftyZL, on Dec 20 2007, 07:08 AM, said:

Just found this article, not relating to the Sioux Name Issue, but relating to the Sioux People instead. Apparently, Lakota people are no longer U.S. Citizens: Lakota Indians Withdraw U.S. Treaties

With no treaty:

.... Doesn't that mean the US State Department would have to negotiate the Sioux nickname*?
and more importantly
.... Doesn't that mean we're still at war?


Where's William T. Sherman when you need him ....

The bad news for Ron McNeil (aka His Horse is Thunder): Today's 7th Cavalry has armor.



* states can't negotiate with foreign entities

While I agree that the U S, in many respects, did not stick to the treaties with the Indians and while I understand that indians have suffered through the decades, it is thinking like this that only perpetuates the suffering of the indian people. I don't see how parting from the U.S. helps indians at all. Without federal money and with the political corruption that pervades many reservations, the indian people would only be worse off. Time to move through the anger and work within what you've got now even though you would rather things be different.

[The Sicatoka]

Chewey, on Dec 20 2007, 10:20 AM, said:

... it is delusional thinking like this that only perpetuates the suffering of the indian people.

You missed a word in there.

[ScottM]

Quote

The group also visited the Bolivian, Chilean, South African and Venezuelan embassies, and would continue on their diplomatic mission and take it overseas in the coming weeks and months.

I take it the Iranians and Sudanese were busy?

[The Sicatoka]

ScottM, on Dec 20 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

Quote

The group also visited the Bolivian, Chilean, South African and Venezuelan embassies, and would continue on their diplomatic mission and take it overseas in the coming weeks and months.

I take it the Iranians and Sudanese were busy?

They're hoping to get on Kim Jong-Il's calendar in North Korea before the year ends.

[dagies]

I don't blame the Native Americans for this action considering the atrocious treatment they received from the hands of the US government after signing the treaties.

That said, I think it should have happened a long time ago. I fail to see the benefit at this time. Maybe in the end, however this situation is resolved, it will be better for the Native Americans. That much I hope.

[The Sicatoka]

LeftyZL, on Dec 20 2007, 07:08 AM, said:

Just found this article, not relating to the Sioux Name Issue, but relating to the Sioux People instead. Apparently, Lakota people are no longer U.S. Citizens: Lakota Indians Withdraw U.S. Treaties

That "Cavalry" moniker just ratcheted up a notch or two on my list ....

[The Sicatoka]

http://www.grandfork...ex.cfm?id=61157

Quote

North Dakota's Board of Higher Education today voted to authorize university system chancellor Bill Goetz to visit chairpeople at North Dakota's two Sioux reservations to discuss UND's Fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

Goetz said he plans to meet personally with Standing Rock Chairman Ron His Horse Is Thunder and Spirit Lake Chairwoman Myra Pearson before the state board meets in February and report back at that meeting.
....

Board President John Paulsen floated the idea of retiring the nickname without visiting the tribes, but that plan met strong opposition from other board members and some state leaders.

A primary message at today's state board meeting was that there was no need to rush the negotiating process.

Oh yeah, John Q. "I'm Chapman's sock puppet" Paulsen is looking out for UND's interests .....

[Goon]

The Sicatoka, on Dec 20 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

LeftyZL, on Dec 20 2007, 07:08 AM, said:

Just found this article, not relating to the Sioux Name Issue, but relating to the Sioux People instead. Apparently, Lakota people are no longer U.S. Citizens: Lakota Indians Withdraw U.S. Treaties

That "Cavalry" moniker just ratcheted up a notch or two on my list ....

Ah yes I should have know Russel Means was involved in this. So does that mean that all funding by the US government is now gone? Does that mean their student will have to get Visa to go to college?

[Diggler]

What exactly is Paulsen's problem? Good God. Someone needs to float the idea of his fat ass leaving the board.

[PCM]

Goon, on Dec 20 2007, 05:59 PM, said:

Ah yes I should have know Russel Means was involved in this. So does that mean that all funding by the US government is now gone? Does that mean their student will have to get Visa to go to college?

All it means is that Means is shooting his mouth off for a meanignless publicity stunt.

[Goon]

PCM, on Dec 20 2007, 08:29 PM, said:

Goon, on Dec 20 2007, 05:59 PM, said:

Ah yes I should have know Russel Means was involved in this. So does that mean that all funding by the US government is now gone? Does that mean their student will have to get Visa to go to college?

All it means is that Means is shooting his mouth off for a meanignless publicity stunt.

Too bad he isn't any good at acting either.

[PCM]

Indian Country Today columnist Susan Harjo has announced her annual "Mantle of Shame" awards.

Quote

Uncle Tomahawk Chops - for their unusual focus on and attachment to ''Indian'' sports references and their singular disregard of the views or situations of living Native Americans. The hands-down winner in this category this year is the University of North Dakota, whose fans would rather spend tens of millions of dollars in court to keep their team name and images than pay attention to the actual Sioux peoples who are telling them to retire ''Fighting Sioux.'' Dishonorable mentions go to the Indian hustler who cut a deal with UND to convince the Sioux nations to change their minds and the non-Indian hustler who made up the T-shirts with this: ''No Sioux Logo / No Sioux Casinos.''

Facts? Ms. Harjo don't need no stinkin' facts!

At least UND is in good company. Russell Means got an award, too!

Quote

Russell Means - for his mid-December announcement in D.C. that he is unilaterally withdrawing the Lakota Sioux from treaties with the United States. News flash to Means: treaties are made between nations; you are a person and not a nation; you are not empowered to speak for the Great Sioux Nation; as an individual, you can only withdraw yourself from coverage of your nation's treaties. (Means is the same Oglala Sioux actor who tried to beat domestic violence charges by challenging the sovereign authority of the Navajo Nation to prosecute him - he took it all the way to the Supreme Court and lost.)

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

This one will be a bit out of order compared to the original, but I'm sure everyone will be able to follow along.

TRex, on Dec 19 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

I will inform you that I am no longer in school, and have graduated for some time now.

I did find the place where I came to the conclusion you were a student. It was a bit earlier than this summer, but still-I think its reasonable to say that someone who claims to have "classmates" in the spring is still a student in the fall. http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?sho...8082&st=101

Quote

I've talked to several of my classmates who feel the same as I do. This issue needs to go away, and the only way to do it change the name. Something nice and neutral.

So, now we all know-yes, you are a graduate.

TRex, on Dec 19 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

Well employed using my Poli Sci degree...

Can I ask if you are either teaching or involved in politics? I'll be honest, so far just about everyone I've ever run across in politics is either a lawyer or a marketing person of some sort. I've yet to find either an elected/appointed official or even someone who runs a campaign who has a PoliSci degree.

TRex, on Dec 19 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

I said a long time back that the Sioux name would be retired and I was right

Two can play that game. Here it is, mark it down-on Christmas Day, the sun will rise in the east.

I'll be back on the 26th to accept congratulations from all.

(BTW, here's a long-term outlook one for free-we'll elect a new president in 2008.)

TRex, on Dec 19 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

BTW, since you aren't even a UND grad, I don't see where you even have a horse to race in this event.

Ah, this old chestnut. Lemme guess at the next one: if you haven't directed a movie then you can't be a movie critic-right?

Okay, everyone who isn't a UND grad get out of the pool.

-Except for the Sioux themselves. The can stay in the debate.
-And the AD at the University of Minnesota, he stays too. We like him.
-Oh, and whoever writes a newspaper editorial I agree with.
-Hmmm, one more, sympathetic professors and Native American "activists": they can stay too.
-Wait, student protestors at Dartmouth are okay: its good to have their voices heard.
-And....

TRex, on Dec 19 2007, 09:22 PM, said:

I just love how anyone who supports the Native Americans in there quest to rid UND of a racist logo will be ridiculed.

I saved the best one for last. The claim of VICTIM status. "Oh, look everyone (hey, is this bullhorn on? Testing....) I'm being persecuted for my beliefs." Simple answer-no, there's no attacks on people just because they say something. I can't claim to have read all the posts, but most of the time people here seem to be talking about ideas rather than personalites. And that's the key. When YOU spout astoundingly simplistic, moronic ideas that are simply breathtaking in their incredible failure to even come close to having a tenuous grasp on reality, those posts are going to be shot down. You need to separate the ideas from the person.

One thought from the other thread-if someone is consistently being accused of being a flamer/troll, and they aren't trying to do that: its time that they leave the forum. And trust me, its not because he's the smartest guy in the room and the rest need a little time to catch up with his intellect. When you keep on insisting that you (and you alone) have the correct interpretation of the First Amendment-and its one that the Supreme Court hasn't quite gotten around to issuing yet-well, people tend to ignore the rest of your ideas.