[GeauxSioux]

There is light surrounding the Fighting Sioux logo issue - and it might come sooner than originally expected.

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Kelley said that it has become clear that continued meetings with tribal leaders will not gain their approval. He added that out of respect, the state and university will eventually need to accept their decision.

"I think at some point you have to recognize that you've had an answer," he said. "You don't keep going back saying let's keep talking about this until I get the answer that I think I want."

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Kelley said that he was interested in the idea of involving North Dakota high school students in the resolution process since they will be impacted by the changes as well.

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Kelley added that his role in the transition will be to ensure that everything goes smoothly in the midst of changes.

"I feel like my job depending on what the state board does is to provide leadership for the university so that all of us can move forward together, so that we come out of this strong together as a university community," he said.

Can you read these statements and others from the article and come away with anything, but the name and logo are gone?

[Goon]

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Kelley said that he was interested in the idea of involving North Dakota high school students in the resolution process since they will be impacted by the changes as well.

That is a bad idea, the people that should decide this is the Alumni, present students... I don't think kids that may never go to UND should have a say in the matter. In fact it will trivialize the Fighting Sioux name. This is a horrible idea. This isn't some goofy contest this is our university replacement for a historic name and logo.

[darell1976]

Goon, on Sep 19 2008, 11:33 PM, said:

That is a bad idea, the people that should decide this is the Alumni, present students... I don't think kids that may never go to UND should have a say in the matter. In fact it will trivialize the Fighting Sioux name. This is a horrible idea. This isn't some goofy contest this is our university replacement for a historic name and logo.

I agree it should be only UND alumni and students only. In 1994 we the students of GFC high school voted on a new nickname to replace Maroon and Grey and only students could vote, no outside help. So the process went like this you submitted what nickname you want then they took the list and chopped it down to the top 3 at that time it was Pride, Knights and something else i cannot remember, well Knights won overwhelmingly I thought Pride was stupid so i voted for Knights. So thats what UND has to do come up with a list then take the top 3 or 5 and vote from that. They better do it soon Sept 30, 2010 is only about 740 days away.

[dakotadan]

darell1976, on Sep 20 2008, 04:23 PM, said:

I agree it should be only UND alumni and students only. In 1994 we the students of GFC high school voted on a new nickname to replace Maroon and Grey and only students could vote, no outside help. So the process went like this you submitted what nickname you want then they took the list and chopped it down to the top 3 at that time it was Pride, Knights and something else i cannot remember, well Knights won overwhelmingly I thought Pride was stupid so i voted for Knights. So thats what UND has to do come up with a list then take the top 3 or 5 and vote from that. They better do it soon Sept 30, 2010 is only about 740 days away.

I disagree. The worst thing the administration could do is rush this. They need to take their time and make sure that everyone that is a stakeholder in UND feels that they had a reasonable say. While I agree that students should have a big say, you can't risk upsetting supporters($$$) of UND.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Only students, University Employees (faculty, staff, etc.) and Alumni should have a say in the nickname. In other words, only people directly connected to UND should have a say.

[Riverman]

Did anyone else see the article on the back page of the Herald Section B pg 8 from Friday 9-19-08?

IMHO, still holding out hope that an agreement is going to be made.

The byline read,
"UND, REA officials hear Dakota Sioux culture presentaion"

Quote from Mr. Chaske an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe.

" What I'd like to see is a class for all freshmen and staff members "Chaske said.
"That logo and and the name would be more meaningful to them"

Makes me go hmmm.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Riverman, on Sep 20 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

Did anyone else see the article on the back page of the Herald Section B pg 8 from Friday 9-19-08?

IMHO, still holding out hope that an agreement is going to be made.

The byline read,
"UND, REA officials hear Dakota Sioux culture presentaion"

Quote from Mr. Chaske an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe.

" What I'd like to see is a class for all freshmen and staff members "Chaske said.
"That logo and and the name would be more meaningful to them"

Makes me go hmmm.

It sure does. It also is yet another conflicting message... We seem to get a story that basically says the nickname is gone, and then the next day, we get a story that indicates there is still hope.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Riverman, on Sep 20 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

Did anyone else see the article on the back page of the Herald Section B pg 8 from Friday 9-19-08?

IMHO, still holding out hope that an agreement is going to be made.

The byline read,
"UND, REA officials hear Dakota Sioux culture presentaion"

Quote from Mr. Chaske an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe.

" What I'd like to see is a class for all freshmen and staff members "Chaske said.
"That logo and and the name would be more meaningful to them"

First, remember that I can’t access the local newspaper so all of this is being drawn from the quotes in the post right here.

Second: I don’t necessarily disagree with the sentiments, and IMHO this idea has been proposed before. I find it a reasonable solution to an unreasonable problem that was created by some imbeciles in the NCAA, not by anyone in North Dakota. Obviously the idea of a payment in exchange for an endorsement (a la Florida State) has been floating around for a while. I’m sure that members of the tribes mentioned by the NCAA would teach this class or seminar, and other tribal members would speak-and your University would pick up the tab. Okay, fine by me. As an aside, I would like to start this off by seeing some of the more even-minded people in the tribes come up with a few ideas that they think all should know about their history, culture, etc. (Mind you, not the bomb-throwers and radicals on the tribal boards: we need some people who come to the table without an agenda.) And once that body of knowledge has been agreed to, we need to develop a test based upon it. And the very FIRST people who should have to take this test (and have the results made public) are the group of crazy profs, professional victims, etc. who have been screaming the loudest. (Also, the test ought to be given on the reservation to people of college freshman age. These people have lived the life: just how aware are they of the important ideas as defined by their own leaders?)

Next, I will warn you that this will go off the path: while I can see the value of defusing the situation, I would like for the people like Mr. Chaske to sit back and reflect upon why this needs to be tied SOLELY to the University of North Dakota and its nickname & logo. Why doesn’t everyone in the state, at any University (or even in high school or elementary school) need this seminar? If this is an important idea (and its not being studied now) then it’s important for all-whether they go to college or not. For that matter, isn’t there a school in Minnesota that constantly complains about your nickname? Why shouldn’t they learn too?

Finally, I’d like to disagree with this:

Quote

"What I'd like to see is a class for all freshmen and staff members "Chaske said. "That logo and and the name would be more meaningful to them"

No; quite frankly, given the depth of emotions brought out by the idiots trying to make you change your nickname I’d say the “Fighting Sioux” has proven to be very meaningful to many people. If it were meaningless, you’d have apathy.

Goon, on Sep 19 2008, 11:33 PM, said:

That is a bad idea, the people that should decide this is the Alumni, present students... I don't think kids that may never go to UND should have a say in the matter. In fact it will trivialize the Fighting Sioux name. This is a horrible idea. This isn't some goofy contest this is our university replacement for a historic name and logo.

Absolutely: please don’t let high school students choose any potential new nickname. IMHO, this is what leads to Banana Slugs, Wind Breakers, and the current popular dinosaur name. You need look no further than the NBA and NHL for unfortunate examples of a once popular trend being followed, getting great mileage for a few years and then looking utterly silly. (One day, someone is going to look around minor league baseball and say “what were we thinking substituting by ‘z’ for ‘s’ at every opportunity; and exactly who thought appending ‘dawgz’ onto every local landmark possible was a great idea?”)

[Goon]

I think the Logo is gone based on all the talk as of late; even if there has been a lot of dobule talk. I think there is no reason to rush this change.

[Sioux-cia]

andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!, on Sep 20 2008, 03:02 PM, said:

Only students, University Employees (faculty, staff, etc.) and Alumni should have a say in the nickname. In other words, only people directly connected to UND should have a say.

Yep!! Just because you live in the community/state doesn't mean you have the same love and desire for the best for the U.

[Bignellyxx]

This topic absolutely makes my blood boil. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to give high school students a say in this. Go Tigers, Falcons, Bears, Wind, Rain. It's obvious enough why. If it needed to come down to a vote alumni and current students should have a say. I think everyone knows which side a vote like this would favor. That is why they want high school student input.

I just graduated in 2007 and I can count on one hand the people I encountered that are against the name. Those people were from my Freshman English class (From this post you can probably tell I didn’t pay enough attention). They were not the type of people who would attend sporting events even after a name change.

I am absolutely outraged that Kelly claims to be neutral. If you want to move on I don’t think that is neutral. I just hope that we don’t give too much power in this decision to people who are not directly affected. I think we should push on with the name. Who cares we can’t host playoff games. Not a big deal as posted earlier. The NCAA keeps on selecting larger NHL and neutral venues for hockey. Probably wouldn’t see one at the Ralph anytime in the next decade anyways. Football well let’s not get ahead of ourselves. What other sports have that large of home field advantage? If it were decided later on to get ride of the name I want a significant period with no official name. Just the University of North Dakota sounds damn fine to me. No use trying to push a name that’s unpopular and force new tradition. If the old traditions die find a unique name that represents the school and not forced by one sided politics

[Bignellyxx]

On a side note i just wish everyone that is against the name at the school was present last year in Denver at that bar before the FF game. Nothing like it!

Just about everyday that i wear a Sioux shirt or Jacket no matter where i am at it sparks up conversation. Just last year i met an alum in Hawaii while looking at the ocean off a cliff.

Went to a Capitals game last year (Wearing the Sioux Jersey) and met the GM of the team before the game during some promotion deal. Had a very good conversation with him about Finley. I just can't believe some politically correct bastards want to take these experiences from me. These are just a few stories of many.

[GeauxSioux]

andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!, on Sep 20 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

Only students, University Employees (faculty, staff, etc.) and Alumni should have a say in the nickname. In other words, only people directly connected to UND should have a say.

I hope your including one large group of stakeholders that may not fall in your categories listed above, Major Donors. Sure most of the major donations come from alumni, but I'm sure there are or will be some that come from non alumni.

[Goon]

Bignellyxx, on Sep 21 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

I am absolutely outraged that Kelly claims to be neutral. If you want to move on I don’t think that is neutral. I just hope that we don’t give too much power in this decision to people who are not directly affected. I think we should push on with the name. Who cares we can’t host playoff games. Not a big deal as posted earlier. The NCAA keeps on selecting larger NHL and neutral venues for hockey.

It appears that the NCAA is moving towards Neutral sites so why even bother with changing the name why not just leave it then and get a North Dakota third jersey for NCAA games? What happens if REA says go pound sand up your @$$ we aren't paying for the changes. I would say lets take up a collection from the Pro-name change people starting with Myles Brand...

I am not sure that Kelly has thought all of the issues through? Seem he is just not up to date on the logo issue, and I am going to be willing to be he has been worked over already by the pro-change people... Also, Kelly is powerless in the name change anyways. That being said it appears that Kelly is ignorant to the historical significance when it comes to the Fighting Sioux name. What happens next when the NCAA decided that the name Cowboys is insensitive. It could happen. I am sure eventually they can find someone is offended by most mascots, team names and logos...

[Bignellyxx]

Goon, on Sep 21 2008, 03:40 PM, said:

It appears that the NCAA is moving towards Neutral sites so why even bother with changing the name why not just leave it then and get a North Dakota third jersey for NCAA games? What happens if REA says go pound sand up your @$$ we aren't paying for the changes.

Yeah i couldn't agree with you more. I was trying to get at that. I hope the REA says go pound pound sand up your @$$ to the school. I think that may be what some people need to realize it's not worth spending a million dollar just to save a handful of peoples feeling.

[Goon]

Bignellyxx, on Sep 21 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

Yeah i couldn't agree with you more. I was trying to get at that. I hope the REA says go pound pound sand up your @$$ to the school. I think that may be what some people need to realize it's not worth spending a million dollar just to save a handful of peoples feeling.

Yeah if you really think about it REA would be doing it for a small number of people...
I wonder if they would like to donate the money to make the changes.

[siouxjoy]

Goon, on Sep 21 2008, 03:40 PM, said:

It appears that the NCAA is moving towards Neutral sites so why even bother with changing the name why not just leave it then and get a North Dakota third jersey for NCAA games?

That works for hockey, but not for the other sports that will hopefully someday contend for a championship. The football team has an amazing record in the Alerus. I don't want to give that advantage up.

[fightingsioux4life]

Goon, on Sep 21 2008, 03:40 PM, said:

It appears that the NCAA is moving towards Neutral sites so why even bother with changing the name why not just leave it then and get a North Dakota third jersey for NCAA games? What happens if REA says go pound sand up your @$$ we aren't paying for the changes. I would say lets take up a collection from the Pro-name change people starting with Myles Brand...

We cannot afford to handcuff the football program with those sanctions; football is one of the main reasons we moved up to D-I in all sports in the first place. Football will have a legitimate opportunity to win national titles and to have a legitimate chance of making a run, you have to be able to host playoff games. Home field is more important in football than in any other sport. If we do what you're suggesting, we might as well move to non-scholarship DI FCS football and join Valpo's conference, because we won't get the blue chip FCS recruits anymore.

As for REA refusing to cooperate with a possible name change, I am not a legal expert (nor do I have any desire to become one), but aren't the Fighting Sioux name and logo the legal property of the University of North Dakota? That is, anyone who wants to use the name and logo has to have the permission of UND or else UND can take action against said person or entity. So if the State Board decided to change the name and UND told REA to stop using the name and logo, REA would have a legal obligation to comply or face certain legal consequences.

This would be an excellent acid test to find out if REA really exists to serve UND's interests and promote it's general welfare or if it's really the other way around. Somehow, I think the potential long-term benefits of being able to host future regionals and other tournaments (and the profit potential of those tournaments) would outweigh the short-term costs of removing the logos. But I'm not in the minds of REA management, so I can't be sure about that.

Some people would take the position that "we just can't sue REA over this". Well, I think we can and we should if it comes down to the scenario I described above. REA just relishes the fact that they are a private entity; then they should be treated like one. Being a "business" and a "private entity" is a double-edged sword, like a lot of other things in this world.

Just my 2 cents.

[Goon]

siouxjoy, on Sep 21 2008, 05:56 PM, said:

That works for hockey, but not for the other sports that will hopefully someday contend for a championship. The football team has an amazing record in the Alerus. I don't want to give that advantage up.

Isn't it three and a half years before we can host a NCAA tourney game for the other sports?

[Bignellyxx]

fightingsioux4life, on Sep 21 2008, 07:52 PM, said:

As for REA refusing to cooperate with a possible name change, I am not a legal expert (nor do I have any desire to become one), but aren't the Fighting Sioux name and logo the legal property of the University of North Dakota? That is, anyone who wants to use the name and logo has to have the permission of UND or else UND can take action against said person or entity. So if the State Board decided to change the name and UND told REA to stop using the name and logo, REA would have a legal obligation to comply or face certain legal consequences.

This would be an excellent acid test to find out if REA really exists to serve UND's interests and promote it's general welfare or if it's really the other way around. Somehow, I think the potential long-term benefits of being able to host future regionals and other tournaments (and the profit potential of those tournaments) would outweigh the short-term costs of removing the logos. But I'm not in the minds of REA management, so I can't be sure about that.

Some people would take the position that "we just can't sue REA over this". Well, I think we can and we should if it comes down to the scenario I described above. REA just relishes the fact that they are a private entity; then they should be treated like one. Being a "business" and a "private entity" is a double-edged sword, like a lot of other things in this world.

Just my 2 cents.

You are correct that the REA can't use the logo without consent to use it. However if the University does decide to change the logo i highly doubt that would require the REA to essentially remodel the arena. That is just crazy. I think the school would have to play in an arena with and old logo unless they could find a way to pay for the change. I think thats fair and am pretty sure Ralph had the upper hand when the contracts were written. If anyone at the school suggests to raise ticket prices to change the logo or any other way to pass the buck off to sioux fans they have some huge cajones. That is a horrible move that proves why they are in education and not business. I think we have a couple years to worry about football playoffs. I'm sorry if i pissed off people on this forum as it appears i may have earlier. I am a huge supporter and rarely feel like posting. I had a couple beers since the vikings game and felt so inclined to post. Please don't blast me i am on the same team.