NCAA Wants Documents Sealed

[Sioux-cia]

"those transgender students among us are faced with a great degree of discomfort when deciding which restroom is appropriate for their use and they should not be forced into such uncomfortable choices."

What's so difficult? You still have a penis,you go to the men's bathroon. No penis, go to the women's BR. Not completely through the transgender program? Pee at home. Duh!!!

[Hawkster]

In a nutshell, this kind of thinking is what is wrong with contemporary society. I don't even know where to begin with such an ignorant statement. If everyone was obligated to be offended by the same things, there could be no meaningful democracy.

It's that very attitude that got us into trouble with the NCAA. It's only offensive if you don't like it, RIGHT?

While the "Sioux" name isn't offensive to me personally, it is offensive to many of the Lakota Sioux tribes, and for that reason, I too find it offensive and feel it has to go.

I've talked to several of my classmates who feel the same as I do. This issue needs to go away, and the only way to do it change the name. Something nice and neutral. Then we can get back to the business of supporting a team with everything we've got.

[Chewey]

This lawsuit IS important because somewhere, somehow, someone has to put the brakes on this PC train that is out of control. As a further illustration I offer the University of Manitoba who have a Bridges-like PC group on campus who have convinced the UM administration that restrooms on campus should be "gender-neutral" because (and I am not kidding here) "those transgender students among us are faced with a great degree of discomfort when deciding which restroom is appropriate for their use and they should not be forced into such uncomfortable choices."

Asinine. Absolutely ridiculous!

[Sioux-cia]

It's that very attitude that got us into trouble with the NCAA. It's only offensive if you don't like it, RIGHT?

While the "Sioux" name isn't offensive to me personally, it is offensive to many of the Lakota Sioux tribes, and for that reason, I too find it offensive and feel it has to go.

I've talked to several of my classmates who feel the same as I do. This issue needs to go away, and the only way to do it change the name. Something nice and neutral. Then we can get back to the business of supporting a team with everything we've got.

I'm offended by many things and some people. My options are 1) avoid them, 2) accept them, 3) kill them or 4) share my opinion with them and. maybe, they'll see it my way and change, knowing I can't force my opinion on them. Oh wait, not 3, that would be against the law unless, of course I'm the NC$$. And not 4 unless I'm the NC$$, and then, of course, I could force my opinion upon them.

The NC$$ dictating their opinion on what is offensive and what is not, restricts my civil rights and my right to freedom of speech. You and your friends have the option to avoid all the is Fighting Sioux athletics including the name and logo and you can agree to disagree. BUT, you and your friends do not have the right to shove your opinion down my throat whether I want it or not!! AND NEITHER DOES THE NC$$!!!

[HockeyMom]

It's that very attitude that got us into trouble with the NCAA. It's only offensive if you don't like it, RIGHT?

While the "Sioux" name isn't offensive to me personally, it is offensive to many of the Lakota Sioux tribes, and for that reason, I too find it offensive and feel it has to go.

I've talked to several of my classmates who feel the same as I do. This issue needs to go away, and the only way to do it change the name. Something nice and neutral. Then we can get back to the business of supporting a team with everything we've got.

Sorry, you should have joined this discussion a lot earlier it's been beaten to death on here. If you you want to know everyone's opinion go back to the nickname discusions that went on here a year or so ago. The only thing that we do know is that neither side of the issue is going to give into the other side.

Simply changing a nickname will not make the issue go away. Dartmouth has lead by example on that one. (Don't get me wrong, Dartmouth has much stronger problems 20 years later than North Dakota has now.) Suicide, unemployment rates, alcoholism and the problems that affect our Native Americans are more important and will not miraculously be gone if North Dakota is no longer known as The Fighting Sioux.

As far as "getting us in trouble with the NCAA" The NCAA has violated the First Amendment of the United States, and we shouldn't just sit back and take it. It should read "the NCAA getting in trouble with UND"

[The Sicatoka]

I don't even know where to begin with such an ignorant statement.

I do.

The statement by "TRex" offends me. It should offend everyone.

But the last thing that should happen is that my claimed offense, or anyone else's claimed offense, should prevent the idea from being aired.

(Now read my signature.)

[ScottM]

What's so difficult? You still have a penis,you go to the men's bathroon. No penis, go to the women's BR. Not completely through the transgender program? Pee at home. Duh!!!

I think it's a natural extension, no pun intended, of the "confusion" these people face: Whether it's better to pee standing up or sitting down.

[Chewey]

I think it's a natural extension, no pun intended, of the "confusion" these people face: Whether it's better to pee standing up or sitting down.

Wierd. Tax dollars should be spent for new "gender neutral" bathrooms because .000002% of the population feels self-conscious about how to pee? Makes complete sense to me and it should to you too, otherwise I'll be offended.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I have said this before, the name should be changed because it's offensive to some, so it should be offensive to all. I just want this thing put to bed and it's not going to happen until it's changed. Why fight the same battles for the next 20 years?

I was so glad to see this posted here. I really thought this sort of attitude was only prevalent among those who visited Illinois message boards.

Here's an open challenge for ANYONE, doesn't even have to be the original poster: give us your proposed new nickname since you think "Sioux" is so bad. Please, let us know what moniker you think won't be "offensive to some". Here's a blank to fill in for your convenience:

----------------------------

I'll guarantee you that within twenty-four hours of your posting, someone will find it offensive. And then you will need to try again. And your next suggestion will suffer the same fate. And over and over and over.

Does this remind anyone of the myth of Sisyphus?

Sorry, I should have read the entire thread. There's another repeat from our discussion boards:

While the "Sioux" name isn't offensive to me personally, it is offensive to many of the Lakota Sioux tribes, and for that reason, I too find it offensive and feel it has to go.

The idea that certain groups (but certainly not ALL groups) somehow own a portion of history is something that I'll never understand. Who has to approve "Dances with Wolves" before its released? Or "Cheyenne Autumn"? Did Scorcese run the script for "The Departed" past anyone in Boston's Irish-American community before he made it?

Something nice and neutral.

I'll wait for your suggestion. I mean, everyone gets to judge what is neutral, correct? Its not just you and your classmates. I'm sure you and yours will agree that we're all equally capable of being judges here. Bill of Rights and all that....

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Returning to the original purpose of this thread: I can't understand the judge's ruling here. He has to know that if he ultimately rules against North Dakota in the court case, the role and contents of the "secret documents" will be the source of speculation for years to come. That would only undermine the confidence the people place in the judicial system. This one is a real head-scratcher IMHO.

[mksioux]

Returning to the original purpose of this thread: I can't understand the judge's ruling here. He has to know that if he ultimately rules against North Dakota in the court case, the role and contents of the "secret documents" will be the source of speculation for years to come. That would only undermine the confidence the people place in the judicial system. This one is a real head-scratcher IMHO.

On the other hand, I've always found that if Judges are inclined to rule in favor of one party on the merits, they tend to bend over backwards to the other party on procedural matters and discovery disputes. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it could be.

My take is that this was the easy the decision for the Judge. The Judge really can't issue a blanket ruling on the documents without looking at them. Some are probably entitled to being kept confidential, while some probably aren't. This way, the Judge doesn't have to examine all of them now. UND will get the requested documents in a timely manner, UND can still use whatever documents it wants, and the Judge can revisit the confidentiality status of individual documents when they are being submitted into evidence (he will have to decide whether to lift the confidential status or admit it into evidence under seal). The Judge only has to review and make a decision on the documents that UND intends to use and doesn't need to sift through, think about, or issue a rulling on all the rest.

[7NationalTitles]

While the "Sioux" name isn't offensive to me personally, it is offensive to many of the Lakota Sioux tribes, and for that reason, I too find it offensive and feel it has to go.

I'm sorry but this statement is one of the most insanely, idiotic statements I have heard. I'm more dumb for having read it.

To me it sounds like circa John Kerry 2004, "I didn't vote for it, but I voted for it." (or however his statement went back then). It's a lot like your statement, "It's not offensive to me personally... I too find it offensive."

You just can't make this stuff up.

[sioux7>5]

It's that very attitude that got us into trouble with the NCAA. It's only offensive if you don't like it, RIGHT?

While the "Sioux" name isn't offensive to me personally, it is offensive to many of the Lakota Sioux tribes, and for that reason, I too find it offensive and feel it has to go.

I've talked to several of my classmates who feel the same as I do. This issue needs to go away, and the only way to do it change the name. Something nice and neutral. Then we can get back to the business of supporting a team with everything we've got.

So if I as a Norwegian am offended by any team named Vikings or Norse, should they all have to change theri name, because I am offended. My wife is Irish, should Notre Dame change their name. According to you, Yes! I do think if UND has to then Notre Dame should be next. Just my opinion.

[Hawkster]

I'm more interested in getting this behind us rather then fighting about it. Even if we win the lawsuit, there is nothing to keep other AD's from refusing to play UND. And, as I said earlier, we don't have the Native Americans solidly behind us. I feel it is time to focus on the D1 move up. The money going to fight the name change might just come in handy when we have to pony up $250,000 for an initiation fee. I know,it's a "separate" fund drive, but lets face it, money is money. I say finding a meaningful conference (or two) is more important.

[The Sicatoka]

There are things more important in life than games.

Contracts and enforcing them is one.

Constitutional law is another.

[PCM]

I'm more interested in getting this behind us rather then fighting about it. Even if we win the lawsuit, there is nothing to keep other AD's from refusing to play UND. And, as I said earlier, we don't have the Native Americans solidly behind us. I feel it is time to focus on the D1 move up. The money going to fight the name change might just come in handy when we have to pony up $250,000 for an initiation fee. I know,it's a "separate" fund drive, but lets face it, money is money. I say finding a meaningful conference (or two) is more important.

This has all been argued here before. Go back and read the threads. I'm not going to argue it again.

[Diggler]

I've talked to several of my classmates who feel the same as I do. This issue needs to go away, and the only way to do it change the name. Something nice and neutral. Then we can get back to the business of supporting a team with everything we've got.

How about the Neutrals? Or Fuzzy Bunnies? Or best yet, TRex's. You could be the logo!

[GeauxSioux]

I'm more interested in getting this behind us rather then fighting about it. Even if we win the lawsuit, there is nothing to keep other AD's from refusing to play UND. And, as I said earlier, we don't have the Native Americans solidly behind us. I feel it is time to focus on the D1 move up. The money going to fight the name change might just come in handy when we have to pony up $250,000 for an initiation fee. I know,it's a "separate" fund drive, but lets face it, money is money. I say finding a meaningful conference (or two) is more important.

In review of your posts to date, it is difficult to see you as a UND supporter. Your posts have included "change the name", "pathetic" in your description of MBB and seeing "disaster ahead" in your view of the move to Division I. I know that we don't all have to be rah-rah people, but either you are a closet NDSU supporter or one of the biggest negative nellies around. I don't find too many Sioux fans who would say

it's offensive to some, so it should be offensive to all.

[Chewey]

I'm more interested in getting this behind us rather then fighting about it. Even if we win the lawsuit, there is nothing to keep other AD's from refusing to play UND. And, as I said earlier, we don't have the Native Americans solidly behind us. I feel it is time to focus on the D1 move up. The money going to fight the name change might just come in handy when we have to pony up $250,000 for an initiation fee. I know,it's a "separate" fund drive, but lets face it, money is money. I say finding a meaningful conference (or two) is more important.

While I understand your points, I couldn't disagree more. If we just give up, I can guarantee you that the matter would not simply be "behind us." As one poster (I think Chief Illiniwek Supporter) correctly points out, the PC idiot brigade will not stop with the name change. There will only be preparation on how to deal with the next whimsical "outrage" tendered by the PC'ers and their allies. This matter should never have been started by the NC00 and the PC'ers conveniently and purposefully forget that they, a minority of a minority, and the NC00 started the whole process to begin with. It is the height of irony and hypocrisy for them to say that we the persecuted should simply put the matter "behind us" by caving in to their ridiculous and baseless claims. The NC00 and the PC brigade can put the matter behind them by dropping an idiotic policy and by actually allowing a member vote on it. At the heart of all of it is control and an animus of inflicting "payback" for "wrongs" committed centuries ago and for which no one during the last 90 to 100 years has been responsible. It's simple low-core aggressive behavior. The PC clowns bring up "progressive" insights, accuse everyone who disagrees with them "racists," pay a few people or give a few students extra credit to "protest" and they get what they want. It's pretty simple really. UND and its alumni and the State of ND do not wish to be subjected to such control tactics.

The PC brigade is not used to being opposed which is why we are seeing the even more shrill hue and cry of rapant "racism" and "injury to institutional reputation." Opposing this madness is absolutely necessary and the more the PCers cry about these things the more firm everyone's resolve should become. If other schools refuse to play UND (and such schools are a distinct minority), so be it; you simply schedule schools (in the sizeable majority) who will. Money dictates even the PC loons so U of M may not be too quick to enforce their noble, cogent and well-discerned policy once the multitude of Minnesota UND alumni voice their displeasure. We are already seeing this.

As far as NA support, the only scientific poll shows that a very sizeable majority either don't care or support the use of indian imagery. In the end, NA support is nice but the schools that use imagery have legal rights to the same. NA support is not necessary at all. The lunacy of the NC00 and its PC allies is nothing more than the twisted manifestation of collective boredom of a bunch of creatively-atrophied, intellectually numbed and emotionally half-baked hippies.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

As HockeyMom and others have pointed out, you guys have been there and done that. I found it highly amusing to see the same "gee, if only the other side caves, then everything will be hunky-dory because they'll just have to give up; meanwhile, we'll NEVER give up" types of arguments from people who want you to think that they're being reasonable (as long as you give them their way, of course) that I saw on so many other boards.

I came to the conclusion long ago that posters like this are usually trolls, disguising themselves as "can't we all get along" types but eventually coming out as the most strident of anti-Chief protestors. Every once in a while you get the honestly naive person who simply thinks that the other side will cave in once this "divisive" symbol is eliminated-the code words like "put this behind us" are usually parroted by this crew. But IMHO, those people are very very few and far between.

The waste of money issue is almost always thrown in: its as if Newton's laws have suddenly been repealed, and dropping a long-held, revered symbol isn't going to cause a loss of revenue. Sure, I don't think there's any reason at all for you to eliminate Chief Illiniwek and I don't believe you're thinking rationally: but if you do go ahead and get rid of something I hold dear, with the short time I have here on earth I'll continue to work to give YOU money to waste. Yeah, that's going to happen.

twisted manifestation of collective boredom

I laughed, but its quite true. These professional protestors and their tenured, out-of-touch enablers will simply move on to the next "fight" like saving the snail darter, why can't we have electric cars in Chicago in January (if we all shouldn't be riding bikes instead) or something. They'll certainly find a new outrage du jour once this one fades.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

On the other hand, I've always found that if Judges are inclined to rule in favor of one party on the merits, they tend to bend over backwards to the other party on procedural matters and discovery disputes. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it could be.

My take is that this was the easy the decision for the Judge. The Judge really can't issue a blanket ruling on the documents without looking at them. Some are probably entitled to being kept confidential, while some probably aren't. This way, the Judge doesn't have to examine all of them now. UND will get the requested documents in a timely manner, UND can still use whatever documents it wants, and the Judge can revisit the confidentiality status of individual documents when they are being submitted into evidence (he will have to decide whether to lift the confidential status or admit it into evidence under seal). The Judge only has to review and make a decision on the documents that UND intends to use and doesn't need to sift through, think about, or issue a rulling on all the rest.

Thanks for reminding me that the judge did indicate that he'll release those docs he feels are needed for the case. I hope that your opinion about the procedural matters, etc that you give in the first paragraph does pan out; but if not, those "secret docs" will be haunting this case for years to come IMHO.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

This lawsuit IS important because somewhere, somehow, someone has to put the brakes on this PC train that is out of control. As a further illustration I offer the University of Manitoba who have a Bridges-like PC group on campus who have convinced the UM administration that restrooms on campus should be "gender-neutral" because (and I am not kidding here) "those transgender students among us are faced with a great degree of discomfort when deciding which restroom is appropriate for their use and they should not be forced into such uncomfortable choices."

Out of curiosity, I have to wonder what happens when their sports teams go into the locker room to change? Does everyone get to go to the locker room of their own choice?

Because sometimes, well, I kind of think about my own identity. And I might become confused if I know that someone like Anna Kornukova or Maria Sharapova are around, and wander into the women's room. Or maybe Natalie Gublis-yeah, right about then I'm thinking that I'll just try it out. You know, just to make sure that I'm not more comfortable changing next to her instead of next to someone like, Tony Siragusa for instance.

[LB#11]

I'm more interested in getting this behind us rather then fighting about it. Even if we win the lawsuit, there is nothing to keep other AD's from refusing to play UND. And, as I said earlier, we don't have the Native Americans solidly behind us. I feel it is time to focus on the D1 move up. The money going to fight the name change might just come in handy when we have to pony up $250,000 for an initiation fee. I know,it's a "separate" fund drive, but lets face it, money is money. I say finding a meaningful conference (or two) is more important.

Yea I agree with you Trex...let's just give up. Why fight for something that's right. Let's just throw in the towel. I'm sure glad we have fighters around here...you Trex are not. I don't know what else to say to a person with your stance...unless you have other motives.

[Northcountry]

I don't know exactly how or where this fits (I just know that it does). On the issue of political correctness, a friend offered this definition: Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional and illogical minority, and promoted by an unscrupulous media that sincerely believes in the proposition that it is possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

[Chewey]

I don't know exactly how or where this fits (I just know that it does). On the issue of political correctness, a friend offered this definition: Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional and illogical minority, and promoted by an unscrupulous media that sincerely believes in the proposition that it is possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

I like that. It certainly is apropos.