SIOUX vs BEAVERS

[brianvf]

I've personally been giving Lee the benefit of the doubt for three years now.

While he was still with Moorhead?

[Supertrex]

I agree that Brian Lee has not played up to his expectations this year, particularly lately. However, he is not close to being the worst defenseman. For all of the Finley apologists out there, he is by far the worst defenseman on the team. I don't care what his plus/minus is, he would not be playing if he were not 6'7". He reacts slowly, gets beat easily and often, and often throws the puck along the boards without looking, creating numerous turnovers and constantly feeding the point. I realize that he's a work in progress and has a lot of potential, but he scares me every time he's on the ice. Jones has also taken a lot of untimely penalties that have cost the Sioux, and as much as I like Genoway, he is not physical enough on D. I would much rather see him at forward and Radke back on D. Chorney and Bina have really been the only consistent defensemen, and both have been very good. Chorney is the most underrated defenseman in the league.

First of all - Good post Goon. I agree that we should be able to ask "What's up with Lee?". It's part of being a fan(atic)...

As for whether Finley is good or bad, all I can say is that over the past five or six games, I have seen alot of improvement. He is making real "Sioux Hockey"-type hits and playing with more edge. And he has a blistering shot from the point, as he demonstrated on Saturday night. So I see him on the upswing. As for Lee, I think I originally stated that he must have something going on personally that is distracting him. I recall him being a better player last year...Hopefully he'll regain his confidence soon. We need his presence.

[jk]

Since we're on the topic of Lee, am I correct that Hakstol sent Bina out in his place on the late 5-on-3? Considering that Bina scored on that PP, I guess you could call that a good move by the coaching staff. I wonder if Bina will be elevated to the top PP unit this weekend.

[roper1313]

Since we're on the topic of Lee, am I correct that Hakstol sent Bina out in his place on the late 5-on-3? Considering that Bina scored on that PP, I guess you could call that a good move by the coaching staff. I wonder if Bina will be elevated to the top PP unit this weekend.

I noticed that too. Bina's play has been spectacular.

On the topic of Lee, Has he been given the benefit of the doubt during HS? I'm only commenting on the State Tourney games his senior year. He didn't impress me the whole tourney. The way people talked, I thought he was going to be able to take over a game, and I didn't see it.

IMO, Finley has been the Sioux's third best defenseman over the past two weeks. We'll see if he can sustain this level of play. This has been the time in past season's when our "big" d-men have figured it out. I.E. Smaby and Greene

[Goon]

My opinion on Lee is that Hak should switch him and Radke. Lee obviously has some offensive skills and maybe getting his butt kicked in the corners and in front of the net will turn the light bulb on for him.

Lee won't go into the corners, not very often. If your questioning this go look at the tape from this weekend. On Friday and Saturday he had the man coverage where his guy went into the corner and he looked over to his defense partner for him to go into the corners. Robbie Bina will go into the corner and get the puck.

One more question. Why can't we try Lee at forward and put Radke back where he belongs. I can't believe that Hak has thrown Kyle under the bus after watching some of the plays that Finley and Lee have made, I believe Radke is better than both of the formentioned players. Kind of a shame to watch what has happened to Radke this season... One thing I like about Radke is his slapper from the point. I am kind of wondering if Radke is going to be the odd man out next year and his demotion to the fourth line is the writing on the wall?

[Sioux_Hab-it]

I think we can all agree that the expectations of what we thought Lee would bring to this team were far different from the expectations for Finley. Given the upcoming weekend I say let's kill this thread and the player bashing. Save all that bashing for the dirty Gophers.

[Goon]

I think we can all agree that the expectations of what we thought Lee would bring to this team were far different from the expectations for Finley. Given the upcoming weekend I say let's kill this thread and the player bashing. Save all that bashing for the dirty Gophers.

With all due respect; I think what Schmidt-Doggy-Dog was talking about, and I what I have brought up was the fact that there are some people who are wearing these feel good green colored goggles, and they think that there is some unwritten rule that you can't critque a player and its construed as bashing a player. Stating the obvious isn't player bashing, come on really if you witnessed a bad play bring it up. If I was player bashing it would have read something like this player______ is worthless piece of camel dung. I don't think anyone has said anything like that. The problem I have with the media and other around this town is the excuse making I have seen this season. Its intolerable.

If you want to read bashing read what ever I have to say about the officials or the Gophers that bashing. Oh yeah the goofer and Briggs suck, is that better. Notice that the old Briggs is coming back game by game.

[Sioux_Hab-it]

With all due respect; I think what Schmidt-Doggy-Dog was talking about, and I what I have brought up was the fact that there are some people who are wearing these feel good green colored goggles, and they think that there is some unwritten rule that you can't critque a player and its construed as bashing a player. Stating the obvious isn't player bashing, come on really if you witnessed a bad play bring it up. If I was player bashing it would have read something like this player______ is worthless piece of camel dung. I don't think anyone has said anything like that. The problem I have with the media and other around this town is the excuse making I have seen this season. Its intolerable.

If you want to read bashing read what ever I have to say about the officials or the Gophers that bashing. Oh yeah the goofer and Briggs suck, is that better. Notice that the old Briggs is coming back game by game.

If you read furhter back in this thread, when Lee got walked by a "PLUG", you will see that I totally agree with you. My message was aimed at the fans who chose to bring Finley into your exchange of viewpoints. My message to them is that the expectations of the two players in question were quite different.

[Goon]

If you read back to the Saturday game thread when Lee got walked by a "PLUG", you will see that I totally agree with you. My message was aimed at the fans who chose to bring Finley into your exchange of viewpoints. My message to them is that the expectations of the two players in question were quite different.

Saturday night, I could barely see

[Vegas_Sioux]

Some Highlights from Saturday enjoy--Something to get you through the afternoon

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tGb0vIujIIU

[HockeyMom]

Some Highlights from Saturday enjoy--Something to get you through the afternoon

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tGb0vIujIIU

Thanks for that! It was great to see the gianormous grin on Oshie's face.

[dagies]

Thanks a ton for the highlights! Looks like Chorney's first goal was a woops.

[skateshattrick]

If you read back to the Saturday game thread when Lee got walked by a "PLUG", you will see that I totally agree with you. My message was aimed at the fans who chose to bring Finley into your exchange of viewpoints. My message to them is that the expectations of the two players in question were quite different.

That's exactly my point. Brian Lee may have had higher expectations, but it is totally unfair to single him out or to constantly rip him when he clearly is better than Finley even on his worst day. Besides, Finley was also a first round draft choice, so he's not entitled to a free pass. I'm trying my hardest to refrain from ripping Finley, but suffice it to say that he's not close in ability to Brian Lee.

[Sioux_Hab-it]

That's exactly my point. Brian Lee may have had higher expectations, but it is totally unfair to single him out or to constantly rip him when he clearly is better than Finley even on his worst day. Besides, Finley was also a first round draft choice, so he's not entitled to a free pass. I'm trying my hardest to refrain from ripping Finley, but suffice it to say that he's not close in ability to Brian Lee.

Okay then, all of our expectations were too high.

[siouxnami]

Finley had an incredible weekend, he was rock solid in both games. He made great decisions, including when to hit and when to maintain his position. I had to listen to a couple of village idiots on Friday at BSU, blast his play including blaming him for things that happened 30 seconds after he left the ice. When you 6'7" Playing in transition can't be your strength, further, you can hit someone, but if you take yourself out of the play, maybe a poke check would have been a better choice. There is a reason why he has led the Sioux in +/- all season. It is because he is far and away the BEST defensive defensman. I think he is ahead of where Greene and Smaby were at this point.

Would the fools that continue to blast Finley answer this one question. Since Finley is not an offensive defensman, how can he lead a team in +/- if he is a defensive liability?

[rochsioux]

That's exactly my point. Brian Lee may have had higher expectations, but it is totally unfair to single him out or to constantly rip him when he clearly is better than Finley even on his worst day. Besides, Finley was also a first round draft choice, so he's not entitled to a free pass. I'm trying my hardest to refrain from ripping Finley, but suffice it to say that he's not close in ability to Brian Lee.

Personally, right now I would much prefer to have Finley on the ice over Lee in a defensive situation. Lee may have more ability when you factor in the offensive side of it but he is not living up to at this time. Currently, Finley is at +10, the highest on the team, while Lee is at -1. Last year it was close (Finley +18, Lee +15) but not this year. When I look at Lee I see a guy who has a great amount of ability but seems to be stuggling in how to put it all together, hopefully the light bulb comes on soon. Defensively he seems to get beat rather easily at times and on offense he is too tentative. I would like to see Hakstol break up Lee and Chorney on the powerplay and drop Lee to the second unit, maybe it would take some pressure off. He basically looks like someone playing without any confidence, whereas a guy like Bina seems to be growing in confidence with each game, and is learning how and when to step up as an offensive threat. The number one powerplay defensive pair right now should be Chorney and Bina, the second unit would Lee and Genoway/Finley. I like Genoway for his stick handling and Finley seems to have a good hard shot from the point, something I would like to see a little more of.

[skateshattrick]

Finley had an incredible weekend, he was rock solid in both games. He made great decisions, including when to hit and when to maintain his position. I had to listen to a couple of village idiots on Friday at BSU, blast his play including blaming him for things that happened 30 seconds after he left the ice. When you 6'7" Playing in transition can't be your strength, further, you can hit someone, but if you take yourself out of the play, maybe a poke check would have been a better choice. There is a reason why he has led the Sioux in +/- all season. It is because he is far and away the BEST defensive defensman. I think he is ahead of where Greene and Smaby were at this point.

Would the fools that continue to blast Finley answer this one question. Since Finley is not an offensive defensman, how can he lead a team in +/- if he is a defensive liability?

What a joke! He is by far the worst defensive defenseman.

To answer your question, there are at least three obvious reasons. First, because he is seldom on the ice when the other team's top line is on the ice. The coaches recognize that as well, so they put him out in situations where he does the least amount of harm. Second, there is often a faceoff in the defensive zone after he left the ice because he either iced the puck or could not get the puck out of the zone. Unfortunately, goals are often scored off of face-offs in the defensive zone. Finally, he is fortunate enough to be on the ice when the top players such as Duncan, Toews or Oshie scored, with very little to no contribution from him. That is why plus/minus is the most overrated statistic. If you happen to step onto the ice while a goal is being scored against, you have a minus and the converse is also true.

Rather than looking at stats, perhaps you should watch the games. I'm not going to debate you further, but I resent being called a "fool" by a person who has not demonstrated any knowledge of the game. Why don't you talk with some of the coaches in the area and ask them who the worst defensmen is for the Sioux. I'll be shocked if you hear any other name.

[siouxnami]

What a joke! He is by far the worst defensive defenseman.

To answer your question, there are at least three obvious reasons. First, because he is seldom on the ice when the other team's top line is on the ice. The coaches recognize that as well, so they put him out in situations where he does the least amount of harm. Second, there is often a faceoff in the defensive zone after he left the ice because he either iced the puck or could not get the puck out of the zone. Unfortunately, goals are often scored off of face-offs in the defensive zone. Finally, he is fortunate enough to be on the ice when the top players such as Duncan, Toews or Oshie scored, with very little to no contribution from him. That is why plus/minus is the most overrated statistic. If you happen to step onto the ice while a goal is being scored against, you have a minus and the converse is also true.

Rather than looking at stats, perhaps you should watch the games. I'm not going to debate you further, but I resent being called a "fool" by a person who has not demonstrated any knowledge of the game. Why don't you talk with some of the coaches in the area and ask them who the worst defensmen is for the Sioux. I'll be shocked if you hear any other name.

Holy free flowing paint thinner!!! +/- doesn't lie, the fact that he is relied upon on the PK doesn't lie. It's nice that he can just jump on the ice before a goal is scored, thats a hard skill to learn. Don't forget 1/2 the games are on the road and the Sioux don't get last change, therefore if all coaches agreed with you, he would always be out on the ice against the other teams top lines, of course they don't agree. The fact that Hak routinely changes his normal rotation for defensive face offs is news to me, and him too...

+/- is not valuable in comparing one team to the next, however is very important on any one team. AND FINLEY IS THE BEST!!! Your comment that he is lucky to be on the ice demonstrates a special kind of incompetence, luck evens out. Don't be a tool like the losers that were telling me how badly Lammy was playing on Friday night...

[Diggler]

So how many Sioux fan's wives have Finley, Lee and Lammy slept with? It can be the only explanation for the borderline hatred these three receive from many fans.

[skateshattrick]

Holy free flowing paint thinner!!! +/- doesn't lie, the fact that he is relied upon on the PK doesn't lie. It's nice that he can just jump on the ice before a goal is scored, thats a hard skill to learn. Don't forget 1/2 the games are on the road and the Sioux don't get last change, therefore if all coaches agreed with you, he would always be out on the ice against the other teams top lines, of course they don't agree. The fact that Hak routinely changes his normal rotation for defensive face offs is news to me, and him too...

+/- is not valuable in comparing one team to the next, however is very important on any one team. AND FINLEY IS THE BEST!!! Your comment that he is lucky to be on the ice demonstrates a special kind of incompetence, luck evens out. Don't be a tool like the losers that were telling me how badly Lammy was playing on Friday night...

By your logic, Taylor Chorney (-3) is the worst defensive defenseman. It would also tell you that TJ Oshie (+1) is a worse defensive forward than Jonathan Toews (+8). Why don't you set aside 20 seconds some time and tell me everything you know about hockey.

[choyt3]

Holy free flowing paint thinner!!! +/- doesn't lie, the fact that he is relied upon on the PK doesn't lie. It's nice that he can just jump on the ice before a goal is scored, thats a hard skill to learn. Don't forget 1/2 the games are on the road and the Sioux don't get last change, therefore if all coaches agreed with you, he would always be out on the ice against the other teams top lines, of course they don't agree. The fact that Hak routinely changes his normal rotation for defensive face offs is news to me, and him too...

+/- is not valuable in comparing one team to the next, however is very important on any one team. AND FINLEY IS THE BEST!!! Your comment that he is lucky to be on the ice demonstrates a special kind of incompetence, luck evens out. Don't be a tool like the losers that were telling me how badly Lammy was playing on Friday night...

Have you watched any games live this season? Or just watched TV; or just listened to the radio?

I'd like to know how many minutes per game JF is averaging. That would be pretty telling. +\- means very little. How many times have we iced the puck when not being pressured what-so-ever and then the opponent scored on the ensuing face-off? Who iced the puck? (or shot it into the crowd?)

[Goon]

Have you watched any games live this season? Or just watched TV; or just listened to the radio?

I'd like to know how many minutes per game JF is averaging. That would be pretty telling. +\- means very little. How many times have we iced the puck when not being pressured what-so-ever and then the opponent scored on the ensuing face-off? Who iced the puck? (or shot it into the crowd?)

That brings up a good point. That has happened a lot this season.

[Supertrex]

I think he is ahead of where Greene and Smaby were at this point.

While I think that Finley has played better the past few games (as I said above), he is nowhere near the same level that Matt Greene was at this point in his career. Matt Greene was one of the best defensemen to ever wear a Sioux jersey. Opposing players lived in fear of him. J Par felt sorry for the opposition that had to face him in front of the net. In addition, Matt Greene is currently way ahead of where Mike Commodore was at this point in his career and Commodore was one of the great Sioux players too. Really, there is no comparing Finley to either of these and I think it is a stretch to compare him to Smaby and until Finley starts playing with a more consistent edge, he will not be considered in that company...

[jk]

Boy is this week ever going to be ugly. When we're done with the defensemen, can we move on and discuss which forward is the worst?

[Goon]

Boy is this week ever going to be ugly. When we're done with the defensemen, can we move on and discuss which forward is the worst?

Did you have any one that you wanted to nominate?