Official thread of D-I budgets / expenses

[jimdahl]

Due to popular demand, here is an official thread for SDSU/NDSU fans to congregate and discuss their mutual concerns over UND's future athletic budgets. Sioux fans' responses about the 'SUs secret deficits should also occur here. Spam other threads with it at your own peril.

[Riverman]

Thank you Jim!!

[GeauxSioux]

Honest questions to SDSU and NDSU fans, because I really don't know.

Was either school running a deficit prior to the move?

Did either school increase student fees to pay for the move to Division I?

How did each of the two schools fund their moves?

How did each school handle the Title IX issue? I know that SDSU was adding equestrian, was that enough to offset the difference in scholarships?

All of UND's athletic department meetings are available online. Is there anywhere where SDSU or NDSU has posted their meeting minutes?

[aff]

Honest questions to SDSU and NDSU fans, because I really don't know.

Was either school running a deficit prior to the move?

Did either school increase student fees to pay for the move to Division I?

How did each of the two schools fund their moves?

How did each school handle the Title IX issue? I know that SDSU was adding equestrian, was that enough to offset the difference in scholarships?

All of UND's athletic department meetings are available online. Is there anywhere where SDSU or NDSU has posted their meeting minutes?

For one of your questions, SDSU and now every SD public institution isn't allowed to increase student fees to pay for D-I because of a governing law passed by the SD board of regents when they were trying to transistion. This is one of the main reasons that a move to D-I by USD is so unrealistic right now.

I believe that NDSU has increased their student fees, but someone more in the know can confirm that.

Equestrian is more than enough to offset gender balances at any school, since it can involve upwards of 60 girls (not all on scholarship of course) from a numbers point of view. For scholarships, equestrian coupled with other womens sports with higher scholarship limits should also be enough for title IX, unless there are significantly more women than men at the school (USD again).

[IowaBison]

Honest questions to SDSU and NDSU fans, because I really don't know.

Was either school running a deficit prior to the move?

Did either school increase student fees to pay for the move to Division I?

How did each of the two schools fund their moves?

How did each school handle the Title IX issue? I know that SDSU was adding equestrian, was that enough to offset the difference in scholarships?

All of UND's athletic department meetings are available online. Is there anywhere where SDSU or NDSU has posted their meeting minutes?

1. NDSU had a relatively balanced budget.

2. NDSU has not seen an increase in student fees because of DI.

3. increased giving, operating reveune, and institutional support

4. NDSU has dealt with Title IX with increased giving by Team Makers members and benefits from the high male/female ratio and student interest in the sports it already offers

5. I haven't seen too much on SDSU or NDSU with respect to meeting minutes. If you dig you can find some documents that refer to NDSU's institutional funding.

[dlsiouxfan]

One thing I've noticed about the ndsu and sdsu fans in this thread. You continually attack UND based on concerns about their budget and how supposedly those two schools were better off financially when they made their move than UND is. BinCitySioux then produced a link to an impartial record keeping site that demonstrated that simply isn't the case (I know it's a year old but we don't have numbers for this year yet). You then proclaim that the site obviously uses dubious accounting to come up with their numbers when they used the same accounting basis to calculate all three schools revenue and expenditures. None of you have produced any such links to back up any of your claims and when we produce them to defend UND you say they aren't good enough. This sort of behavior leads many of us to question your motives. I firmly believe that most of you will not be content with any sort of answers to your questions other than us stating that UND will fail with this Division I move.

[aff]

One thing I've noticed about the ndsu and sdsu fans in this thread. You continually attack UND based on concerns about their budget and how supposedly those two schools were better off financially when they made their move than UND is. BinCitySioux then produced a link to an impartial record keeping site that demonstrated that simply isn't the case (I know it's a year old but we don't have numbers for this year yet). You then proclaim that the site obviously uses dubious accounting to come up with their numbers when they used the same accounting basis to calculate all three schools revenue and expenditures. None of you have produced any such links to back up any of your claims and when we produce them to defend UND you say they aren't good enough. This sort of behavior leads many of us to question your motives. I firmly believe that most of you will not be content with any sort of answers to your questions other than us stating that UND will fail with this Division I move.

I never said it was "dubious". The point of that site is to show the relationship between mens and womens sports at an individual school, and how they are in reference to title IX. The site accomplishes these goals very well. The site wasn't intended as an indicator of total athletic budgets to compare school to school, as many posters have done, and it doesn't show everything that is or isn't in a budget. Advertising for instance. This doesn't really have to do with men or women, and isn't a title IX issue, so is it included with that site? There are several anamolies like this when using it. The site asks questions in a way that ensures that questions are answered equally for males and females at a school, but not for each individual school. I believe this is a reason why I'm sure USD comes out looking great on there...because they have to because they have 60% girls and 40% boys.

If you want references for budgets heres a few I've used before.

SDSU:

SDSU Report

SDSU Report 2 Years ago

USD:

USD Volante Article- 2 years ago

UND:

I've been using your task force report saying you were going to run a deficit for claims about UND

NDSU:

I've never commented on their budget

Trash the USD article if you want, but thats straight from the horses mouth. Don't like it, fine, but don't tell me its not accurate. I will choose to believe USD budget from USD's AD.

[aff]

1. NDSU had a relatively balanced budget.

2. NDSU has not seen an increase in student fees because of DI.

3. increased giving, operating reveune, and institutional support

4. NDSU has dealt with Title IX with increased giving by Team Makers members and benefits from the high male/female ratio and student interest in the sports it already offers

5. I haven't seen too much on SDSU or NDSU with respect to meeting minutes. If you dig you can find some documents that refer to NDSU's institutional funding.

Sorry for saying that NDSU had raised fees, I thought I heard that, but I was incorrect. Thanks for the info.

[DamStrait]

I didn't say there wasn't a right to do that, but he also needs to decide if this board is only for posting positive information on UND, or if realistic questions can be asked about UND's plans. I don't think that asking a series of serious of questions about the financial situation of a school moving to D-I is that out of line to ask.

If nobody is allowed to question the monetary situation of UND thats fine, but don't pretend this board is being realistic about anything anymore. Its no better than propaganda in my view.

And in my view yours is nothing more than anti-UND propaganda. Contrary to your rants, hockey at UND brings money into the athletic department and pays for other non-revenue sports. That being the case, if the 'SUs are able to make the move, any reasonable person would expect that UND can too.

You are unreasonable in your demands from UND fans on this site to answer questions they cannot possibly be expected to answer. If you are really curious, find them for yourself and then share your findings with the rest of us. I suggest you start with AD Tom Buning and President Kupchella. Until then you have nothing new to add.

You should be very grateful that Jim is as patient as he is, letting you make your "points" ad nauseum. Were it up to me, your posterior would be gone.

[IowaBison]

Contrary to your rants, hockey at UND brings money into the athletic department and pays for other non-revenue sports.

I don't think that anyone debates that men's hockey is money maker. UND still projected a $700,000 budget deficit for '05-'06 with it.

That being the case, if the 'SUs are able to make the move, any reasonable person would expect that UND can too.

That's a pretty faulty parallelism.

[Shawn-O]

That's a pretty faulty parallelism.

How so?

[PCM]

You are unreasonable in your demands from UND fans on this site to answer questions they cannot possibly be expected to answer.

Right. And even if Kupchella himself posted answers these budgetary question, some here wouldn't believe him. So what's the point?

[GeauxSioux]

4. NDSU has dealt with Title IX with increased giving by Team Makers members and benefits from the high male/female ratio and student interest in the sports it already offers

I'm not sure that I follow this one. I understand that Team Makers had an increase in giving, but how does that equate to being in compliance with Title IX? If you're telling me that the scholarships that were funded by the increased giving is in compliance with Title IX, I would understand.

NDSU increased football scholarships from 36 to 63 in short order. In what sports did NDSU increase scholarships on the women's side to stay Title IX compliant? I understand that NDSU benefits from having more males than females, but to what extent?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Aff or DI or *Bison,

My comments relating to the Hockey team are based primarily on the posting stating that the Hockey program will be a detriment to UND's DI move...To the contrary, we have a hockey program that adds significant positive revenue to the university's budget and when combined with a 90 million dollar facility it brings additional respect and recognition to the university (Sorry, but its true and does need repeating). I am a solid Hockey fan and thus I have a keen sensitivity towards anyone outside of Grand Forks taking pot shots at the program.

To aff and other Bison posters, I too also have a big concern on the effects on the Hockey program's quality and the budget with UND's athletic program moving to DI. Honestly, ND can hoot and holler all it wants about its football and basketball, but the reality of low population density and the relative closeness of a Big Ten school does not lend itself to our programs ever becoming the Huskers in Football or the North Carolina's of Basketball. Therefore, that is why I concentrate on Hockey since it is a sport where UND regulary competes and succeeds at the highest level on a year on year basis. To that extent, NDSU and SDSU fans should not look at that simple fact as an insult to your programs current success, but it does require that all use some perspective when they start having dreams of DI championships in sports that have been so thoroughly dominated by colleges and states nowhere near ND or SD. Lastly, the NCAA's control of college sports has basically made it impossible, in my humble opinion, for an NDSU or SDSU or UND to compete in the sports of Basketball and Football at the level we would all hope it could be.

BobIwabuchiFan

[IowaBison]

I'm not sure that I follow this one. I understand that Team Makers had an increase in giving, but how does that equate to being in compliance with Title IX? If you're telling me that the scholarships that were funded by the increased giving is in compliance with Title IX, I would understand.

NDSU increased football scholarships from 36 to 63 in short order. In what sports did NDSU increase scholarships on the women's side to stay Title IX compliant? I understand that NDSU benefits from having more males than females, but to what extent?

I'll elaborate:

NDSU will only reach 63 this year. I'm pretty sure that this year Team Makers will nearly be at their long term goal-ie fully funded.

During the transition year '04-'05 almost all new $$$ went to football. Last year the increase went to primarily to women's sports. Where this is room to match the increase for football (about 5 for softball, basketball, and track and field; 4 for volleyball, 3 for soccer, 1 for golf ....22 almost matching the 27 for football).

[urlhttp://www.hsbaseballweb.com/scholarships_by_sport.htm]scholies

Also, Title IX guidelines may be satisfied by provided sports of interest to students (well, something like that) which is the path I'm pretty sure NDSU took, although I think they'd be okay with the relatively high ratio of male to female students. The interest of NDSU students' mapped well into the sports offered. If necessary another sport, ie equistrian, may be added later if student interests change.

[IowaBison]

Aff or DI or *Bison,

My comments relating to the Hockey team are based primarily on the posting stating that the Hockey program will be a detriment to UND's DI move...To the contrary, we have a hockey program that adds significant positive revenue to the university's budget and when combined with a 90 million dollar facility it brings additional respect and recognition to the university (Sorry, but its true and does need repeating). I am a solid Hockey fan and thus I have a keen sensitivity towards anyone outside of Grand Forks taking pot shots at the program.

To aff and other Bison posters, I too also have a big concern on the effects on the Hockey program's quality and the budget with UND's athletic program moving to DI. Honestly, ND can hoot and holler all it wants about its football and basketball, but the reality of low population density and the relative closeness of a Big Ten school does not lend itself to our programs ever becoming the Huskers in Football or the North Carolina's of Basketball. Therefore, that is why I concentrate on Hockey since it is a sport where UND regulary competes and succeeds at the highest level on a year on year basis. To that extent, NDSU and SDSU fans should not look at that simple fact as an insult to your programs current success, but it does require that all use some perspective when they start having dreams of DI championships in sports that have been so thoroughly dominated by colleges and states nowhere near ND or SD. Lastly, the NCAA's control of college sports has basically made it impossible, in my humble opinion, for an NDSU or SDSU or UND to compete in the sports of Basketball and Football at the level we would all hope it could be.

BobIwabuchiFan

And I disagree, I believe that hockey is a detriment to UND in their move to DI.

[aff]

And in my view yours is nothing more than anti-UND propaganda. Contrary to your rants, hockey at UND brings money into the athletic department and pays for other non-revenue sports. That being the case, if the 'SUs are able to make the move, any reasonable person would expect that UND can too.

You are unreasonable in your demands from UND fans on this site to answer questions they cannot possibly be expected to answer. If you are really curious, find them for yourself and then share your findings with the rest of us. I suggest you start with AD Tom Buning and President Kupchella. Until then you have nothing new to add.

You should be very grateful that Jim is as patient as he is, letting you make your "points" ad nauseum. Were it up to me, your posterior would be gone.

Of course you would kick me off, I said something against UND, God forbid anyone says something about the budget (even though your own president has voiced his concern about it). I mean, the president of UND can not be sure, but lord knows that anyone on this board that doesn't think it might work out should be booted.

Seriously, what you call "anti UND propaganda" in asking questions about a budget in D-II that needs tuition waivers to stay afloat, I call common sense. What do you expect? Your AD issues a report about a coming deficit in D-II. Your own president doesn't want to move because he doesnt think the money is there. You can't even get a womens hockey program funded with actual money in scholarships, and have to use tuition waivers. But then you call anyone who doubts that UND can make it financially in D-I as someone who spouts off propaganda? Its just common sense, you can't afford what you have now, your financial plan involves telling people that the move up costs $1 million, which is incorrect, your president has quotes such as "we may be forced to move, even though it makes little sense" etc. and you have the guts to tell people that they are talking about propaganda? I guess your definition of proganda is anything you don't want to hear. Go ahead, stick your head in the sand, see what happens.

And I'm unreasonable asking questions to UND fans that they can't possibly answer? Does that maybe ring a warning bell for anyone on here? That theres no plan for this move, so these questions can't be answered? You would think that maybe, just maybe, before announcing UND was going to go D-I, they might, I don't, HAVE A PLAN TO ACCOMPLISH IT. I'm sure this is just some more propaganda though. Why have a plan, when you can just declare your moving and hope it works, or not in kuppys case, when he leaves before the transition is even done, and UND is left holding the basket. God, I guess I just can't stop myself with the propaganda though.

I would like you to look through my posts and show me where I said hockey didn't generate money. I pointed out ways that hockey was going to hurt you in this move, probably more than the money you're making. Here were my points:

1. Hockey is at the same time as mens basketball. Only one can be a fans priority. Mens basketball conferences are going to assume its hockey, which it is.

2. Womens hockey is a huge drain on your budget, and requires scholarships to even get out of having tuition waivers.

3. Hockey is going to get scheduling priority over basketball, meaning that either the conference that UND could possibly join is going to have to schedule around UND hockey, or UND is only going to have approximately a 4000 seat basketball arena. Look at the arenas of schools being added to the midcon coming up (NDSU will soon upgrade their arena).

4. Conferences will assume that hockey will get funding priority over mens basketball. That doesn't speak well to a commitment to mens basketball.

[GeauxSioux]

I'll elaborate:

NDSU will only reach 63 this year. I'm pretty sure that this year Team Makers will nearly be at their long term goal-ie fully funded.

During the transition year '04-'05 almost all new $$$ went to football. Last year the increase went to primarily to women's sports. Where this is room to match the increase for football (about 5 for softball, basketball, and track and field; 4 for volleyball, 3 for soccer, 1 for golf ....22 almost matching the 27 for football).

[urlhttp://www.hsbaseballweb.com/scholarships_by_sport.htm]scholies

Also, Title IX guidelines may be satisfied by provided sports of interest to students (well, something like that) which is the path I'm pretty sure NDSU took, although I think they'd be okay with the relatively high ratio of male to female students. The interest of NDSU students' mapped well into the sports offered. If necessary another sport, ie equistrian, may be added later if student interests change.

Thanks, your explanation of the distribution of scholarships on the women's side is helpful. I had not previously heard that 22 scholarships had been added on the women's side.

[Riverman]

And I disagree, I believe that hockey is a detriment to UND in their move to DI.

Why?

Ok since we all seem thinking that bb is the sport of kings. Why wouldn't a school like Montana

not want to help another school with there schedule when revenue from said sporting date helps fill the leagues coffer in a trickle down way. This being done helps said school maintain a budget or even dare I say make money.

Is hockey really that evill and vile of a sport?

UND should drop said sport because the MidCon of the future doesn't offer hockey? And UND might miss out? I would not want to lose a date with Minnesota or Wisc in hockey for the revenue that it brings to UND and the Greater Grand Forks area.

So INMHO an Oral-bob of the Midcon might float SU's boat but, if a conference can't help work around a possible UND schedule would they really want UND??And would UND want to give up a hockey gate and ties with the WCHA for over 50 plus years to join a conference that is unwilling to help it's members??

I am using Montana and Oral Bob as an example this does not mean or am I saying UND is a shoe in to the BSC or Mid Con. (end disclaimer)

[IowaBison]

There are limited sports entertainment and scholarship dollars in any market. And based on comments out of Grand Forks it appears those dollars are reaching a plateau.

If UND didn't have hockey, which makes up about half of its athletic department's budget, with the same amount of funds they'd likely be able to afford the move.

[southpaw]

And I'm unreasonable asking questions to UND fans that they can't possibly answer? Does that maybe ring a warning bell for anyone on here? That theres no plan for this move, so these questions can't be answered? You would think that maybe, just maybe, before announcing UND was going to go D-I, they might, I don't, HAVE A PLAN TO ACCOMPLISH IT. I'm sure this is just some more propaganda though. Why have a plan, when you can just declare your moving and hope it works, or not in kuppys case, when he leaves before the transition is even done, and UND is left holding the basket. God, I guess I just can't stop myself with the propaganda though.

So none of the fans on here know the specifics of how UND is going to make the d1 transition... that must mean that the school has no plan. Obviously less than a month after announcing they will take a year to look at the move everyone and their mother should know what UND specificially is going to do. I can't believe that nobody on here has hacked into Kupchella's mind and gotten all of the details. Once someone does that, then we'll be able to answer the questions that you have that really should be aimed at the administration, which knows a heck of a lot more about this than fans on a message board. continue to throw out the same questions over and over and then complain that nobody is answering them. you won't get an answer from people that don't know. but just because us fans don't know doesn't mean the administration doesn't know.

[southpaw]

There are limited sports entertainment and scholarship dollars in any market. And based on comments out of Grand Forks it appears those dollars are reaching a plateau.

If UND didn't have hockey, which makes up about half of its athletic department's budget, with the same amount of funds they'd likely be able to afford the move.

you can say that UND hockey is a detriment to the school all you want... but it also could be the savior. i don't think anyone denies that men's hockey is a huge bread winner for UND and women's hockey takes a significant amount of that revenue away. but realize that by going d1, this small north dakota school will get 1/4 of a million dollars every time they make it to the frozen four. that's half a mil over the past 2 years that UND is missing out because of not being d1.

[IowaBison]

but realize that by going d1, this small north dakota school will get 1/4 of a million dollars every time they make it to the frozen four. that's half a mil over the past 2 years that UND is missing out because of not being d1.

yes, a quarter of a million dollars! that is less than 10% of the additional money UND will need to raise year in and year out, and I'd imagine that UND won't make the frozen four each year!

[IowaBison]

you can say that UND hockey is a detriment to the school all you want... but it also could be the savior. i don't think anyone denies that men's hockey is a huge bread winner for UND and women's hockey takes a significant amount of that revenue away.

I stated,

"I believe that hockey is a detriment to UND in their move to DI."

There is a difference.

[bincitysioux]

yes, a quarter of a million dollars! that is less than 10% of the additional money UND will need to raise year in and year out, and I'd imagine that UND won't make the frozen four each year!

Of course we won't make it to the Frozen Four every year, but it is another revenue stream that would be available to UND, that is not now.