Where do we draw the line?

[Csonked Out]

Over the past 4 years I have received a great education here at the University of North Dakota, participated in many extracuricular activities, volunteered in the community and held a full-time job, all of which have been beneficial to me, as well as to the community. After saying this, I am some what disturbed as to the current situation of UND students and the community.

No i'm not whining about standing at the hockey games, as this has nothing to do with athletics for me, the ralph is the communities not UND's, the students didn't pay for part of it, so that is why we lost some priveleges, and I am fine with that. Everyday I hear from people all over that they support UND students and athletics, but as the months go by, more and more people go against their word, whether it be directly or indirectly, and as I will point out, actions speak louder than words.

1) Casion Election

As a student I am appauled by the article written a couple weeks back about not letting students vote in this election, this is blatant discrimination to any student. The gentleman was quoted in the paper as saying that he knows how important UND is to the community, but at the same time feels that we don't have a long-term interest in grand forks. How is that so? I myself pay rent on an apartment, work full-time, give more time to volunteer in the community, but dont have a long-term interest here, it is because of people like this that more and more students leave not only North Dakota but grand forks year after year.

2) City Council Elections

Someone please tell me why the elections are in the summer. I have a feeling the members know that if they hold them in the fall most of them wouldn't be elected in again because there is no way students would vote some of them back. So how do we get around this? It's simple, hold elections in the summer when all the students leave, then they can't have a say. Just another example of how to not deal with student opinions.

3) Recent concessions

These last couple years students have been forced to make many concessions at the request of the community such as sitting at hockey games, changing springfest, and not being able to rent in particular parts of town. All of these concessions were made at the expense of us the students to please the town, in order to ease the tensions between the two groups which I understand. But after we the students did all this, the town says thats not good enough anymore and changes the noise ordinance to 24 hours a day, and tries to block us from voting. Well Grand Forks the question now becomes what have you done for UND students lately, and no i'm not talking about the athletes the town loves so much, and yes i do understand most businesses are in support of UND and its students. I am talking about the everyday citizens in Grand Forks, we have done a lot these past 2 years to please the community, but what have the citizens done to please the students?

This may all seem like a rant from a pissed off student, but its not. I will be graduating this december with a degree in management and economics, and am in the process of looking for jobs, as I am one of the few people that wish to stay within North Dakota upon graduation. This is a big problem because everytime something like this happens, it pushes more and more students away. Grand Forks has a huge advantage over many towns in ND and should be able to keep up growth wise, but is falling behind, as the other 3 major cities are growing faster, while Grand Forks is stable. An easy way to see this is looking at the sales tax increases from last year, keep in mind None of the towns I am mentioning raised their sales taxes, so these increase in numbers are purely an increase in economic growth within the cities.

1) Bismarck

-increased sales tax by 12.1% from 2004

2)Minot

- increased sales tax by 7% from 2004

3) Fargo

- increased sales tax by 6.1% from 2004

4) Grand Forks

- increased sales tax by 0.75% from 2004

Now my question is how is Grand Forks so far behind while having a university with over 12,000 students? This is a serious question that needs to be dealt with. Governor Hoven launched a campaign to keep its students in North Dakota, and in my opinion Grand Forks has a long way to go to gain back the respect of the students. The citizens of this town must realize that this is a University town, and because of this has many economic advantages, especially with UND hockey. But at the same time it must be realized that the community will not agree with everything the students do, so compromises must be made on BOTH sides to make it work. The students are doing their part, but the community wants to have its cake and eat it to. Meaning they want to take all the benefits of this great university, but don't want to have to deal with anything else, well it doesn't work that way.

I am not trying to say the whole town doesn't support us, because I know most employees of UND along with most people on this message bored want to have the University and community work together, but the time is now to deal with it, or more people like myself will keep getting pushed out of Grand Forks with the message saying, "thanks for your money, but we dont need you anymore."

P.S. please only post inciteful remarks as I don't want this to turn into a flamefest.

[star2city]

1) Casino Election

2) City Council Elections

3) Recent concessions

Absolutely agree with you on #1 and #2. Students should not be disenfranchised because they might leave in a few years. Even if they leave, they will be replaced with someone of similar voting interests. One could use the same argument to GF's senior citizens: they won't be around much longer and aren't concerned with the future, so why should senior citizens be allowed to vote? Neither students nor Seniors should be disenfranchised.

The issue people are probably the most concerned with is who the elected official is representing the University Ward. John Hoff hurt the credibility of students horribly among townspeople. What's interesting is that State District 42, the legislative district the includes UND, has elected numerous very capable people to the legislature (such as Wayne Stenehjem) with the students voting in November. District 42 voting results (like its current roster of Horter, Dietrich, & Hacker) should be used to counter the mindset that students will vote irresponsibly.

[Cratter]

I'm with ya fightingbooya.

[82SiouxGuy]

1) Casion Election

2) City Council Elections

I could go on a long time about several of your topics but for now I will address these 2. You are right about the Casino election and the group that is against the casino is wrong. They have a right to their opinion. State law and the majority of the people in town disagree with them so if there is an election students will be allowed to vote. But, the chances of the casino even getting to an election are pretty slim. You are wrong about the reasoning for the City Council elections. City elections are usually held at the same time as state primary elections to save money. It costs several thousand dollars to hold an election. Bismarck and Fargo also hold their city elections the same day so they are no more student friendly than Grand Forks. None of them are trying to limit the number of students voting. If students don't like it there are processes in place to change government.

As far as some of the other items you listed as anti-student, I think that if you look around at other college towns you will find that many of them have similar noise ordinances, similar liquor in the park ordinances, similar rental laws, similar issues with student behavior at sporting events (see "the Chant" topic on USCHO), etc, etc. In other words, Grand Forks is no more or less ant-student than most college towns. It is far from a perfect place. But it is a good place to live for students and non-students, they just need to figure out how to live with each other which means compromise and respect on both sides.

[The Sicatoka]

On:

1a) I doubt the Federal BIA will ever let a casino be built near GF. There won't be an election; however,

1b) The folks trying to disenfranchise anyone are wrong.

2) The council elections date is (de facto) set at state level (see "82SiouxGuy). Blame Bismarck.

3) How come Fargo never gets bashed as "anti-student"? Or Moorhead? Didn't the former Fargo chief of poh-leece there have something called "The Party Patrol" where he'd put cops on overtime on weekends just to bust up parties and roust houses around the NDSU campus and apartment neighborhoods? And Moorhead has doubled weekend patrols around MSU-Moorhead and Concordia campuses. They're crackin' down big-time.

[ScottM]

GF and UND have always had shaky "town and gown" relations. UND was orginally built away from GF to protect the locals from the "corrupting influences" of academia, let alone out-of-towners who might show the local ladies a "good time".

I never really cared about GF politics, as I never intended to stay there after I got my degree(s). If you're truly interested in GF politics, get involved with local issues, get a drivers' license or voter registration for a GF address, and don't act like GF or its residents owe you a damn thing.

[Rick]

protect the locals from the "corrupting influences" of academia

Ahh Scott....we were talking about the students here, not the professors.

[PCM]

On:

1b) The folks trying to disenfranchise anyone are wrong.

As I understand the definition of the word, nobody is being "disenfranchised" because nobody is being denied the right to vote. If you want to vote, establish your residency in Grand Forks and vote. That's what I had to do.

[Csonked Out]

I am a resident of Grand Forks so I will be voting. Not quite sure which way yet if their is a vote, but it was the principle of the matter that upset me. And no i'm not talking about loud parties or anything, i'm talkin about be threatened by the police at 2pm on a tuesday afternoon when me and 3 buddies were playin cards, but that isn't a big deal at all. The thing i disagree with is the statement saying don't act like Grand Forks owes me a damn thing. The town should feel thankful that the university is here because the town isn't growing that fast with a university, where would it be at without one? I'm not asking to receive special treatment, just to be treated fairly like anyone else and not feel disrespected because i go to college. Yes part of these are growing pains cause all of this is new within the last 2 years, and i'll be here 5 years this year, but these are ligitimate problems that need to be dealt with.

All this being said, I have recently been working with a professor at UND about a planned proposal I recently sent to Mayor Brown.

It is as follows:

1) Any graduating UND student wishing to seek full-time employment upon graduation will have the chance to receive up to $5,000 tuition reimbursment, if he/she stays within the community for a period of at least 5 years. If the student shall move away before the 5 years is up the free money turns into a low-interest loan that the student is required to pay back to the city.

- Why not offer an incentive to students to stay in town, with the rising property taxes, and the above average utility costs, this would be a great incentive for Grand Forks to grow. East Grand Forks is doing something very similar at the moment, and it is working out quite nicely. This would be payed with by the portion of the city budget, along with the selling of 30 year municple bonds.

2) Any graduating UND student wishing to purchase land/property within the city limits of Grand Forks will also be offered a set property tax lasting for a maximum period of 5 years in which they would pay a rate that will equal 3.5-4% This would also induce a student to be able to purchase a home instead of throwing away more money into an apartment. Just another way to spur growth with-in the city.

I've been workin on this proposal for a few weeks now, and any support shown by either emailing or writing a letter to Mayor Brown would be greatly appreciated. I know the chances of this getting past are probably slim at this point, but my goal here is to sent the message to people that we can change growth potential into actuall growth if the city and university can get students more involved, and give them the opportunity to speak their mind. So if nothing else, if the bill can at least get some exposure it would still be a success in my mind. Thanks very much

[airmail]

About students' voting priveleges, I respectfully disagree.

On the casino, for instance... if it passes a vote, it will be part of our community for years. I am simply of the opinion that the vote should be left to those who have a long term stake in the community. As recently as yesterday I had a conversation about this with a UND student interning with our firm this summer. He was of the same opinion as many stated, "If I buy a house, and make GF my residence, then yeah... I want a vote. Otherwise, what right do I have to make long term decisions for the community?"

Regarding the tuition reimbursement:

I took out student loans while I was attending UND. I got a job in the Grand Forks area and started paying them off. I could have went to MPLS and made a lot more money, but I wanted to be here. If we start "paying people" to be a part of our community, what kind of community will we have? In my opinion, one with a lot of 5 year turn over, and a city that will be weaker in the long run. High housing turn over will reduce property values, and in turn reduce industrial and commercial development... the big guns in community longevity.

Thank you for your post, and I respect your well-thought views and opinions. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on these subjects.

[Csonked Out]

There is a town in Michigan, I believe the name is Kalamazoo. The population of this town is roughly 77,000 people so it is bigger than Grand Forks. About 5 years ago this town passed a motion stating that anyone who attends public school in the town from kindergarten through 12th grade will be abe to attend any college in the state of michigan free of charge. This includes Michigan, Michigan State, and MTU. The first year after this was past the amount of kindergarteners in the town increased by rougly 35% in one school year! True this town did have people donate the money to pay for this, but the point of the story is that things like these do work, and can positively spur growth and economic prosperity for the town. Now this is an extreme example, and it is currently the only city in the nation offering such an incentive, but if Grand Forks could do something, even minimal, it is my opinion that it would have the same effects over a longer period of time, and by increasing the amount of educated within the community, it would eventually lead to better, higher paying jobs overall.

[The Sicatoka]

As I understand the definition of the word, nobody is being "disenfranchised" because nobody is being denied the right to vote. If you want to vote, establish your residency in Grand Forks and vote. That's what I had to do.

True.

The way that group put it out there in their statements gave the odor of an intented disenfrancisement by naming a group who should not be allowed to vote. I should have been more specific.

[dlsiouxfan]

Students should have a say in the casino election and every election in Grand Forks. We're one of the few growing segments of the city's population and we should have an even greater say in it's government. The decisions of the city council this past year hurt students and future students will pay the price for them. Costs on rental units are already through the roof in this city and there rising because of the zoning law and the loud party laws are being abused by law enforcement. For example, many student houses received loud party fines immediately after Springfest because they had violated the 24- hour noise ordinance since people were on their lawn during Springfest. Other homes owned by older individuals didn't receive citations, just students. Furthermore how could these students have prevented this since they in effect received citations for living next to an event that had loud music and was attended by thousands of people. GF is also a community where having a loud party is now the same level misdemeanor as a DUI, so that citation means something when we go out in the work force. It may not seem like a big deal to older citizens and you can call us whiny brats if you feel like it, but the majority of UND's advertising is word- of mouth from UND students and the words coming out of students mouths aren't too good right now.

[Goon]

About students' voting priveleges, I respectfully disagree.

On the casino, for instance... if it passes a vote, it will be part of our community for years. I am simply of the opinion that the vote should be left to those who have a long term stake in the community. As recently as yesterday I had a conversation about this with a UND student interning with our firm this summer. He was of the same opinion as many stated, "If I buy a house, and make GF my residence, then yeah... I want a vote. Otherwise, what right do I have to make long term decisions for the community?"

When I read that point of view from some that students shouldn't be able to vote on the casino because many of them will be gone and don't have a stake in the community. (per the Grand Forks Herald) I couldn't believe that I actually read that. Now I believe that opinion it is down right crazy. Some of the students do actually stay here after college, I didn't intend to and ended up staying. I don't think legally the city council could do that. Sounds closed minded to me.

[fightonsioux]

I believe that if you claimed North Dakota as your resident state for income tax purposes, then you should get to vote regardless of whether your were a student or not.