Lacrosse at a "DI" UND?

[govikes27]

I agree with Sicatoka, lax might not pay for itself, but I bet it would do better than baseball and softball. It might not pay for itself, but I think it's realistic to think it might come reasonably close to breaking even. I like the idea of offering partial rides initially, that way the school still has some added tuition coming in. The crossover of hockey fans wanting to get their fix after hockey season is over is very realistic in my opinion. As far as the Average Joe, I think some might be intrigued by how physical the game is!

[star2city]

I have read with interest all the posts regarding lacrosse becoming a sport at UND. To be honest, I have little knowledge, appreciation or interest in the sport but that doesn't mean it is not a good idea. However, with most of North Dakota and NW Minnesota probably having the same attitude (partially because it is not played in HS in the area), do you really think this could become a sport that would pay for itself at UND?

In answering my question, please don't compare it to baseball, golf, hockey many years ago, etc. Just try to convince me that it could produce revenue - especially when you consider that all players would come from out of the area which means higher recruiting costs and higher tuition costs.

Don't take my post as negative, I just naive when it comes to lacrosse (I do know that it is a rough game and its participants are true athletes) and need more information to understand how it could possibly be a profitable venture.

A good comparison may be the USHL, which locates hockey teams in non-traditional hockey cities. Based on the players and hockey traditions in that region, hockey should draw poorly in Kearney, or Lincoln, or even Sioux Falls, but it draws well. It seems the answer is that hockey fills a void in those cities and has helped generate more hockey players.

In late March, April, and May, Grand Forks and the region has a spectator sport void that needs filling. UND lacrosse could take advantage of that void. There are actually two professional lacrosse leagues, and both setting up teams in cities that have almost no lacrosse tradition. With a Fighting Sioux label, lacrosse would draw better than in GF than if a minor league lacrosse set up shop. Interest in playing lacrosse locally would follow. IMO, lacrosse has much more chance than soccer of having a major impact on American (and upper Midwest) culture.

[govikes27]

I have been watching that situation, also. It's extremely difficult to get "name" dI schools to travel to low to mid major schools. Looking at Montana's schedule, they very rarely get anybody decent to travel there either, and obviously they've been dI for many years. But of course, at least they have conference games with established rivals to make up for their lack of attractive non-conference home games. Maybe getting guarantees would offset the lack of home attendance to a degree, but as far as ticket sales are concerned, a move to dI would likely have a negative impact for UND. I think that's a very important fact that needs to be considered in discussing a potential dI move.

Agreed, UND shouldn't count on increased revenue in terms of attendance. Although the SU's could have a slight increase when they are accepted into a conference.

As far as DI schools coming here to play, if people are expecting Kentucky or Duke or any school of a major conference to come to ND of course they will be disappointed. But if they hope to see peer institutions (Montana, Montana St., Idaho, Idaho St., some of the New England schools perhaps, and of course SDSU and NDSU) I think they will be pleased. I think playing those schools would generate more interest than playing Crookston, Bemidji, Mayville, ect., but sometimes it seems I'm a minority.

[dakotadan]

As far as DI schools coming here to play, if people are expecting Kentucky or Duke or any school of a major conference to come to ND of course they will be disappointed. But if they hope to see peer institutions (Montana, Montana St., Idaho, Idaho St., some of the New England schools perhaps, and of course SDSU and NDSU) I think they will be pleased. I think playing those schools would generate more interest than playing Crookston, Bemidji, Mayville, ect., but sometimes it seems I'm a minority.

Don't forget our big rivalry game with Minot State coming up.

[UND92,96]

Agreed, UND shouldn't count on increased revenue in terms of attendance. Although the SU's could have a slight increase when they are accepted into a conference.

As far as DI schools coming here to play, if people are expecting Kentucky or Duke or any school of a major conference to come to ND of course they will be disappointed. But if they hope to see peer institutions (Montana, Montana St., Idaho, Idaho St., some of the New England schools perhaps, and of course SDSU and NDSU) I think they will be pleased. I think playing those schools would generate more interest than playing Crookston, Bemidji, Mayville, ect., but sometimes it seems I'm a minority.

The thing is, I don't think games against these types of schools would be eliminated upon going dI, at least not for the first several years. NDSU plays Hamline, Jamestown, Mary and Mayville this year. Finding enough decent home games is tough whether you're dI or dII.

[82SiouxGuy]

I think that lacrosse is an interesting idea for UND. While it is not a popular sport in this region currently, it has started to draw some interest. St. Paul joined the National Lacrosse League, a professional indoor lacrosse league, last year when the Wild were out on strike. The team is the Minnesota Swarm. They play in the Xcel Energy Center and they drew more than 13,000 fans for the final game of last season. They averaged more than 10,000 per game. Their new season starts January 6. They play 8 home games and 8 away games. Fox Sports North is going to televise the opener and 1 other game.

I am a big baseball fan, but I would not object to exploring the option to drop baseball/softball and add mens and womens lacrosse. The weather in our area is not dependable enough to develop really competitive programs in either baseball or softball. Lacrosse at the DI level could be a good addition whether we stay DII in other sports or move up.

[star2city]

More action less talk.

To be truthful, I am very surprised at the friendly reception that lacrosse has received on this board. There is a healthly amount of skepticism too (as there should be), but there isn't derision and the topic doesn't seem to generate divisiveness among fans.

If you think UND lacrosse is an idea worth exploring, contact the athletic department. Let them know why you would support UND adding lacrosse and how you would help support it (i.e. buy game tickets).

Tom Buning's e-mail is: tombuning@mail.UND.nodak.edu

[bincitysioux]

To be truthful, I am very surprised at the friendly reception that lacrosse has received on this board. There is a healthly amount of skepticism too (as there should be), but there isn't derision and the topic doesn't seem to generate divisiveness among fans.

If you think UND lacrosse is an idea worth exploring, contact the athletic department. Let them know why you would support UND adding lacrosse and how you would help support it (i.e. buy game tickets).

Tom Buning's e-mail is: tombuning@mail.UND.nodak.edu

I think it is just another illustration of how much support and interest is garnered by baseball and softball at our fine University.

[dakotadan]

I think it is just another illustration of how much support and interest is garnered by baseball and softball at our fine University.

That is what has suprised me. I thought that there would be more people upset about the idea of cutting baseball and softball.

I like the idea of Lacrosse. But if we are going to cut sports to support other sports, I would like to see our existing sports fully funded first. Even if Lacrosse isn't a real possibility, I wouldn't mind seeing baseball and softball dropped and their schollarships and coaches salaries transferred to sports like women's hockey and soccer.

[star2city]

Just My Thoughts.... If and When we make the LEAP!....We will not be adding sports my friends.....

Only Cutting for fiscial Responsibility.....Div 1 is Not CHEAP?

Totally agree that there will need to be cuts. A sport like golf, which now consists of van trips, will become much more expensive with the travel involved. A decision on DII vs DI is also about recruiting local/regional vs regional/national athletes, having a mix of sports with a chance of being competitive, having sports that help pay their way, and doing the most with the resources and facilities and climate limitations we have.

Here's a table that show scholarship requirements if we maintained all sports and went DI fully funded, DI and dropping sports, and DI w/ lax..

Men . . . . Now . . . . DI-Full . . DI-lite . . . DI+lax

Football . 36 . . . . . 63 . . . . . 63 . . . . . . 63

Basketball 12 . . . . . 13 . . . . . 13 . . . . . . 13

Hockey . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18. . . . . . 18

T&F&XC . 3.5 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 6 . . . . . . 6

Baseball . 2.4 . . . . . 11.8 . . . . x . . . . . . x

Golf . . . . 0.2 . . . . . 4.5 . . . . . x . . . . . . x

Swimming 3.3 . . . . . 8.1 . . . . . 8 . . . . . . 8

Lacrosse . x . . . . . . x . . . . . . x . . . . . . 12

Total . . . . 75.4 . . . . 136.4 . . . 108 . . . . 120

Women . . Now . . . DI-Full . . DI-lite . . DI+lax

Volleyball 8 . . . . . 12 . . . . . 12 . . . . . 12

Basketba 10. . . . . 15 . . . . . 15 . . . . . 15

Hockey . 12. . . . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18

T&F&XC . 4 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18

Softball . 5.5 . . . . . 12 . . . . . x . . . . . x

Golf . . . . 1 . . . . . 6 . . . . . x . . . . . x

Swimming 6.56 . . . . 8.1 . . . . 8 . . . . . 8

Tennis . . 2.5 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 8

Soccer . . 8 . . . . . 12. . . . . 12 . . . . . 12

Lacrosse . x . . . . . x . . . . . x . . . . . 12

Total . . . . 57.56 . . 109.1 . . 91. . . . . 103

Its much easier to understand how a DI lax team could be supported (especially if we stay DII) than how football will generate more revenue to pay for its nearly doubling of expenses at the IAA level.

In reality, the only way DI men's lacrosse works is if men's swimming is also dropped (and women's swimming stays so a women's lacrosse team does have not to happen). Considering that the Big SKy "mandates" M&W golf & M&W tennis, swimming may well be on the chopping block if we were in the BSC and the conference kept their requirements.

Edited December 24, 2005 by star2city

[bincitysioux]

Im sorry guys like I've said before we take this LEAP...we will not be adding only dropping..?

My take on the original Lacrosse discussion was that it was possible replacement, something to swap with baseball and softball, not just an addition. If we do move though, I'm 99% sure that we will be adding Men's Tennis.

[bisonguy]

i do not think u can do that....only one in each is allowed..and we are there..

From the 2005.2006 NCAA DI Manual:

20.4.1.2 Divisions II and III Members

[dakotadan]

As Bisonguy already pointed out, there is no DII hockey championship. Therefore our hockey teams do not count for the 1 men's and 1 women's teams to play up a level. We could still sponsor 1 more DI team in each mens and womens. The only sports that can't be used in the 1 Up rule is Football, Basketball, and Baseball (softball?). That is how we could add D1 Lacrosse without moving DI in all sports. Also there are a couple sports that don't have Division classifications, it is just called the NCAA championship. Minnesota State sponsors women's bowling which is one of the sports that doesn't have Division classifications. Not that I am going to hold my breath till UND gets women's bowling.

[coachdags]

i stand corrected...thank you

[govikes27]

I'd have to agree. I liked the idea of Lacrosse when it was first thrown out, but after looking into it, I realize that it is not feasible. If UND did start up Lacrosse, and joined the Great Western conference, it would still likely require 5-7 flights to the eastern seaboard every year. I doubt that any attendance revenues could offset the costs of this. Baseball and softball may not be money makers or self-sufficient, but I think they are probably losing far less money than Lacrosse would.

Yeah, the amount of traveling is probably too expensive to introduce lacrosse if UND is moving to DI. Denver has 8 road games during the 2006 regular season. Can't really call any of them a short trip, even traveling to conference opponents. I still think it would be a good addition to UND sports if it had the resources, but probably won't be happening anytime soon.

[The Sicatoka]

If UND did start up Lacrosse, and joined the Great Western conference, it would still likely require 5-7 flights to the eastern seaboard every year.

Lacrosse schedules normally four home and four road weekends and plays two games per weekend.

Look at the baseball and softball and golf (M/W) schedules and then look at a sample (e.g. DU) lacrosse schedule.

Baseball is taking a trip to Florida and trips (2) to Kansas this year plus the normal "around the region" bus trips (5 or 6) in the NCC. Softball is pretty much the same (save the two Kansas trips). Golf (M/W) both do the "around the region" tour (5 or 6 bus trips).

The Florida trip is one weekend. Figure three regional bus trips would be about the same a one longer trip. Baseball and mens golf does 12 bus trips (not counting baseball to KS x2). There's the other three road weekends of "four weekends on the road" of lacrosse, and it should work M or W. And who knows, if (I said if) UND were in a lacrosse league with Ohio State and Notre Dame maybe you bus there to save flight costs.

I don't see where the travel costs in total would be all that different. Start-up costs would be the bigger issue (equipment) is my guess. Then again, how bad does Nike want that "swoosh" on the front of UND's hockey jerseys? Bad enough to supply .... ?

[The Sicatoka]

However, this lacrosse thread seems to be so disconnected from the financial realities facing the University that I have taken the liberty to bring up my concerns. I don't do this because I enjoy poo-pooing the creative endeavors of other posters, but rather because I believe that often times the hypotheticals, in this instance the addition of lacrosse, need to be brought down to earth a little.

This lacrosse notion was brought up to face the realities that would come if (I said if) UND were to move to Division I.

- UND does not have good Division II, much less DI, baseball or softball facilities.

- UND would not be competitive in baseball, softball, or golf at the DI level.

- Baseball draws poorly today (averaging around 250).

- UND's weather does not support baseball, softball, and golf.

- UND and GF under-utilize The Alerus Center as an asset in the spring.

- Canada (long a prime ground for UND) loves lacrosse.

- Canadian chain is building a hotel on The Al (marketing).

The fiscal realities are stark any way you turn. Forgive me for thinking outside of the box and stepping away from something proven over 50 years to not work and looking at something that may have a better shot at better drawing in fans (and gate revenues).

Another thought that matters: Title IX. The 2004 EADA data said UND had 45 baseball players v. 18 softball players and 17 mens v. 11 womens golfers. Going to M/W lacrosse of equal sized teams (and dropping the aforementioned programs) would better balance the M v. W athletes "books".

[IowaBison]

My comments have not focused on the merits of maintaining baseball or softball. In my opinion, it's much more realistic to forecast the elimination of these sports and swimming and diving as well than the addition of lacrosse. Given the athletic departments current fiscal situation, the elimination of these programs is possible even if the University stays DII.

And to reiterate, UND almost certainly needs to sponsor golf if it wants to find a DI conference.

[govikes27]

If UND were to cut the programs that UND would have no chance at all of being competitive at, would it run into Title IX issues? I know some other non-revenue sports could be increased to full scholarships, but football nearly doubles in scholarships. Perhaps adding women's lacrosse and just women's could be an answer?

[bincitysioux]

Lacrosse schedules normally four home and four road weekends and plays two games per weekend.

Look at the baseball and softball and golf (M/W) schedules and then look at a sample (e.g. DU) lacrosse schedule.

Baseball is taking a trip to Florida and trips (2) to Kansas this year plus the normal "around the region" bus trips (5 or 6) in the NCC. Softball is pretty much the same (save the two Kansas trips). Golf (M/W) both do the "around the region" tour (5 or 6 bus trips).

The Florida trip is one weekend. Figure three regional bus trips would be about the same a one longer trip. Baseball and mens golf does 12 bus trips (not counting baseball to KS x2). There's the other three road weekends of "four weekends on the road" of lacrosse, and it should work M or W. And who knows, if (I said if) UND were in a lacrosse league with Ohio State and Notre Dame maybe you bus there to save flight costs.

I don't see where the travel costs in total would be all that different. Start-up costs would be the bigger issue (equipment) is my guess. Then again, how bad does Nike want that "swoosh" on the front of UND's hockey jerseys? Bad enough to supply .... ?

Denver's Lacrosse team will fly five times this season, and one bus trip from Denver to Air Force. They'll have two trips with two games on the same weekend, and both times will have to travel by bus between games.

If UND started lacrosse, and joined the Great Western conference, it is possible that a 16 game schedule would include 9 or even 10 away games for the first several years, if not for even longer, due to our remote location. There would not be any bus trips, not to Notre Dame or Ohio State. If UND flies its baseball team to Kansas, it isn't going to drive a lacrosse team to Columbus. Lacrosse requires 35 to 40 players, while baseball requires 20 to 25. Whether they are on scholarship or not, more student-athletes means more expenses.

Again, I like the idea of Lacrosse, and I agree that baseball has not and never will work well at UND given our climate and facilities. I just don't think it pencils out, and neither does baseball, but baseball is already in place. The reality is, in my opinion, that baseball is not going to be a part of DI athletics at UND (if we move) whether we add lacrosse or not.

Edited January 4, 2006 by bincitysioux

[Cratter]

Denver's Lacrosse team will fly five times this season, and one bus trip from Denver to Air Force. They'll have two trips with two games on the same weekend, and both times will have to travel by bus between games.

If UND started lacrosse, and joined the Great Western conference, it is possible that a 16 game schedule would include 9 or even 10 away games for the first several years, if not for even longer, due to our remote location. There would not be any bus trips, not to Notre Dame or Ohio State. If UND flies its baseball team to Kansas, it isn't going to drive a lacrosse team to Columbus. Lacrosse requires 35 to 40 players, while baseball requires 20 to 25. Whether they are on scholarship or not, more student-athletes means more expenses.

Again, I like the idea of Lacrosse, and I agree that baseball has not and never will work well at UND given our climate and facilities. I just don't think it pencils out, and neither does baseball, but baseball is already in place. The reality is, in my opinion, that baseball is not going to be a part of DI athletics at UND whether we add lacrosse or not.

If you fly or drive a team of 40 or 20 the difference in expenses isn't that great. I don't know why you keep trying to argue the point. A lacross team at UND will not be any more "expensive" than the current baseball team.

[The Sicatoka]

Denver's Lacrosse team will fly five times this season, and one bus trip from Denver to Air Force. They'll have two trips with two games on the same weekend, and both times will have to travel by bus between games.

I agree with your assessment. That's how I see it also. But how is that worse than a (week-long, think: lodging) trip to Florida, two to Kansas, and about a 18 regional bus trips (between baseball and mens golf)?

If UND started lacrosse, and joined the Great Western conference, it is possible that a 16 game schedule would include 9 or even 10 away games for the first several years, if not for even longer, due to our remote location.

Five travel weekends can be 10 road games leaving six home games. The goal of course would be 8 home, 8 road games. And as far as "remote location", Denver and Air Force are not exactly in the heart of lacrosse territory right now either. Yes, they have "pair" factor, but a team coming to GF could try to schedule an exhibition in Winnipeg against a Canadian team.

If UND flies its baseball team to Kansas, it isn't going to drive a lacrosse team to Columbus. Lacrosse requires 35 to 40 players, while baseball requires 20 to 25. Whether they are on scholarship or not, more student-athletes means more expenses.

Our EADA data shows 45 on the baseball team. All go to Florida for the week, don't they? And doesn't lacrosse limit the "travel party" like hockey does also? (Hockey only, by rule, takes 22 on the road; the others stay home.)

Again, I like the idea of Lacrosse, and I agree that baseball has not and never will work well at UND given our climate and facilities. I just don't think it pencils out, and neither does baseball, but baseball is already in place. The reality is, in my opinion, that baseball is not going to be a part of DI athletics at UND (if we move) whether we add lacrosse or not.

Here I think we'll agree:

1. Baseball at DI doesn't make sense for UND (if UND were to go DI).

2. Lacrosse is a viable option given the existing infrastructure and nature of the fan base.

3. If a move to DI were to occur, cutting would happen long before adding. (I accept and acknowledge that.)

My point in the conversation is this: UND needs to look at all, all, of this as a blank piece of paper to be filled in.

[Cratter]

Firstly, it is Buning. Secondly, I can't speak for others, but I've put the word "lacrosse" and the thoughts of dropping baseball and golf past Mr. Buning (and others in key positions at UND).

Any word on what he said?

[puck swami]

As a Denver Fan, lacrosse is turning into a huge spring hit on campus. After only seven years at the D-I level, the Pioneers are ranked #12 in the nation. There are sellout crowds at $9 per ticket, and FSN-RM is picking up TV games. There are now 50 high schools in Colorado playing the game, and DU no longer must recruit all east coast atheltes. Today, DU is bringing Canadians, Colroadans, Texans, etc. The new stadium lax is already too small, and they are thinking about building more seats to accomodate the growth.

One of the coolest things about the game is that it is played by name-brand schools. In recent years, DU has hosted men's lax teams from serious schools such North Carolina, Duke, Virginia, Syracuse, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Harvard, Penn State, Penn, Dartmouth, Villanova, etc.

I think North Dakota would great for the game- with an indoor facility, recruits would come. And the fans would enjoy the game - it's fast, physical and goes great with hockey fans. With only 55 schools playing at D-I, its much easier to get good in the sport quickly.

[govikes27]

As a Denver Fan, lacrosse is turning into a huge spring hit on campus. After only seven years at the D-I level, the Pioneers are ranked #12 in the nation. There are sellout crowds at $9 per ticket, and FSN-RM is picking up TV games. There are now 50 high schools in Colorado playing the game, and DU no longer must recruit all east coast atheltes. Today, DU is bringing Canadians, Colroadans, Texans, etc. The new stadium lax is already too small, and they are thinking about building more seats to accomodate the growth.

One of the coolest things about the game is that it is played by name-brand schools. In recent years, DU has hosted men's lax teams from serious schools such North Carolina, Duke, Virginia, Syracuse, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Harvard, Penn State, Penn, Dartmouth, Villanova, etc.

I think North Dakota would great for the game- with an indoor facility, recruits would come. And the fans would enjoy the game - it's fast, physical and goes great with hockey fans. With only 55 schools playing at D-I, its much easier to get good in the sport quickly.

Any idea how much of a profit comes from lax?

Edit: *note to self: read posts carefully before making dumba** replies *

P.S. you guys are already planning to expand your lacrosse stadium? Sounds like it's taking off alright. Sweet.