D-II vs. DI-AA level of play

[FargoBison]

UNC did in their first year (I realize they are struggling now, but they were never very good in their last years of D2), SDSU, and how NDSU are doing now. You can not argue those facts. Those teams just moved up and are becoming ranked the first few years in the top 25 during the season. It is not that big of a jump.

Your kidding yourself if you don't think UND could do the same if not better than NDSU currently does (did).

UNC's schedule in their first year was very weak and they definately didn't deserve to be ranked and also they were pretty good over their last year of DII. I think UNC lost to GVSU in the semifinals in their last year of DII play. SDSU has never been ranked and they have only beaten one fully funded IAA team. I think the highest they have gotten is 35th. It is hard to say exactly how well UND would do in IAA because UND refuses to play IAA teams and using NDSU as a model of comparision isn't exactly the best model to use. Playing a schedule filled with IAA teams is a big step up from playing a schedule full of DII's.

[The Sicatoka]

As much as I can't stand to listen to him at times, the sports monkey, sorry, director, at KFGO (Derek Hanson?) may have this one right:

There are haves and have nots at every level of football.

The differences between the haves and have nots in any level are probably greater than the differences between the haves of DII and DI-AA, or the have nots of DII and DI-AA.

--> DI-AA Valpariso and DII UM-Crookston (have nots) would be a pretty even game.

--> DII "have" Grand Valley would give any "have" DI-AA fits.

[biff]

UND could do fairly well and knock off some big names, but don't expect to do it every week and be in the top 10 right away. The players NDSU and UND recruit in ND, MN and the area make up the core of the team, but you need speed, depth and impact players to hang with top 10 teams every week. UND doesn't have many and NDSU needs a few more or they won't be ranked much higher than they were this year. UND would do well, but top 10 team right away, not a chance.

[teamsioux]

--> DI-AA Valpariso and DII UM-Crookston (have nots) would be a pretty even game.

A former Bison player (Steve Lacqua) who coached at UMC last year I saw the Bison-Valpo game and said the exact same thing.

[dlsiouxfan]

Just for the sake of argument a position by in a position by position comparison we have the Bison beat more often that not...

Offense:

QB: Belmore and Manke I would say are even matches with Walker and Parsons Edge: Even

RB: Steffes is quite a RB and gives the Bison the edge in this area over Beatty, however a healthy Strouth lets us match up a little better Edge: NDSU

WR: Dressler and Grossman are excellent receivers and even though neither may be as fast as Marques Johnson they will put up much better numbers. Groeschl and Heckendorf matchup pretty evenly and are similar players. UND's young backups Caulfield and Nicholas give us the edge. Edge: UND

OL: UND has future NFL starter Kris Kuper and some other very solid OL. NDSU has a number of solid OL but none who stand out or could play at the next level. Edge: UND

FB/TE: NDSU uses their's a lot more in their offense as receivers while ours do more blocking. Edge NDSU but I think this may have more to do with the differing offensive philosophies

K: Glas beats Vartanian every time. Edge: UND

Defense:

DL: Once again the differing philosophies lead the schools to look for different types of players. But while NDSU's d-line gets quite a bit of hype I doubt any of them have the athleticism to challenge Adam Wolff or Ross Brennan (both who were only part- time starters for us this season). Also with Peterson, Duchscher, Cadwell, Richter, White, and Nelesson we have much better depth at the position than they do. Edge: UND

LB: Philosophy also makes comparison's difficult here as well, but you won't find a better unit at either the D-2 or D-1AA level than we had this past season and while Mays be exciting to watch the edge goes to UND big time.

CB: Hoffschneider and Alexander vs. Babich and Walter. Close one but I'll give this one to us Edge: UND

S: Gagner would be the best player for either teams secondary this season. Edge: UND

P: Dragosavich had better numbers than Halfman though both are excellent punters. Edge NDSU

KR/PR: Dressler and Washington are very similar players, however Dressler doesn't seem to make the blunders Washington does. Edge: UND

[FargoBison]

Just for the sake of argument a position by in a position by position comparison we have the Bison beat more often that not...

Offense:

QB: Belmore and Manke I would say are even matches with Walker and Parsons Edge: Even

RB: Steffes is quite a RB and gives the Bison the edge in this area over Beatty, however a healthy Strouth lets us match up a little better Edge: NDSU

WR: Dressler and Grossman are excellent receivers and even though neither may be as fast as Marques Johnson they will put up much better numbers. Groeschl and Heckendorf matchup pretty evenly and are similar players. UND's young backups Caulfield and Nicholas give us the edge. Edge: UND

OL: UND has future NFL starter Kris Kuper and some other very solid OL. NDSU has a number of solid OL but none who stand out or could play at the next level. Edge: UND

FB/TE: NDSU uses their's a lot more in their offense as receivers while ours do more blocking. Edge NDSU but I think this may have more to do with the differing offensive philosophies

K: Glas beats Vartanian every time. Edge: UND

Defense:

DL: Once again the differing philosophies lead the schools to look for different types of players. But while NDSU's d-line gets quite a bit of hype I doubt any of them have the athleticism to challenge Adam Wolff or Ross Brennan (both who were only part- time starters for us this season). Also with Peterson, Duchscher, Cadwell, Richter, White, and Nelesson we have much better depth at the position than they do. Edge: UND

LB: Philosophy also makes comparison's difficult here as well, but you won't find a better unit at either the D-2 or D-1AA level than we had this past season and while Mays be exciting to watch the edge goes to UND big time.

CB: Hoffschneider and Alexander vs. Babich and Walter. Close one but I'll give this one to us Edge: UND

S: Gagner would be the best player for either teams secondary this season. Edge: UND

P: Dragosavich had better numbers than Halfman though both are excellent punters. Edge NDSU

KR/PR: Dressler and Washington are very similar players, however Dressler doesn't seem to make the blunders Washington does. Edge: UND

And you basing these comparision off of what? The two schools played very different schedule and no common opponets. I think NDSU has the better team and is also better on both sides of the ball but special team are about even. I know UND fans will have a tough time saying NDSU has a better defense but SU's defense was 7th in total defense and 2nd in scoring defense. And NDSU shut down some very good teams and really only had one bad game.

[BisonMav]

Just for the sake of argument a position by in a position by position comparison we have the Bison beat more often that not...

Offense:

QB: Belmore and Manke I would say are even matches with Walker and Parsons Edge: Even

RB: Steffes is quite a RB and gives the Bison the edge in this area over Beatty, however a healthy Strouth lets us match up a little better Edge: NDSU

WR: Dressler and Grossman are excellent receivers and even though neither may be as fast as Marques Johnson they will put up much better numbers. Groeschl and Heckendorf matchup pretty evenly and are similar players. UND's young backups Caulfield and Nicholas give us the edge. Edge: UND

OL: UND has future NFL starter Kris Kuper and some other very solid OL. NDSU has a number of solid OL but none who stand out or could play at the next level. Edge: UND

FB/TE: NDSU uses their's a lot more in their offense as receivers while ours do more blocking. Edge NDSU but I think this may have more to do with the differing offensive philosophies

K: Glas beats Vartanian every time. Edge: UND

Defense:

DL: Once again the differing philosophies lead the schools to look for different types of players. But while NDSU's d-line gets quite a bit of hype I doubt any of them have the athleticism to challenge Adam Wolff or Ross Brennan (both who were only part- time starters for us this season). Also with Peterson, Duchscher, Cadwell, Richter, White, and Nelesson we have much better depth at the position than they do. Edge: UND

LB: Philosophy also makes comparison's difficult here as well, but you won't find a better unit at either the D-2 or D-1AA level than we had this past season and while Mays be exciting to watch the edge goes to UND big time.

CB: Hoffschneider and Alexander vs. Babich and Walter. Close one but I'll give this one to us Edge: UND

S: Gagner would be the best player for either teams secondary this season. Edge: UND

P: Dragosavich had better numbers than Halfman though both are excellent punters. Edge NDSU

KR/PR: Dressler and Washington are very similar players, however Dressler doesn't seem to make the blunders Washington does. Edge: UND

It's all perspective, IMO most UND people would have UND winning most matchups, and the NDSU people would have NDSU winning the matchups.

[spider]

It's really easy to say you can compete, but as said before, it is all talk. I can claim that I can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, but until I actually fight him nobody will ever know. I can proclaim that I can climb Mount Everest with one hand tied behind my back, but until I attempt it nobody will know. It's all conjecture.

UND has a severe case of Little Man's Syndrome at this point in time. Big Brother NDSU has left you behind and you feel the need to justify your position. That is understandable. Your administration needs to sack up and play NDSU. After the game you may be able to say, "I told you so!!" But I doubt it.

For every NDSU story (concerning the move to IAA), there is a polar opposite. There are plenty of D2 teams that have moved into IAA and have had no success in many years of playing IAA ball. Texas State is a good example. They won a D2 championship in the mid 80's and moved to IAA. 2005 was their first trip to the IAA playoffs. It was nearly 20 years of hardship for them.

I am a fan of Montana State (and IA Tulsa, where I attend school now) and have been reading this board and the NDSU board for a couple of months. The NDSU/UND rivalry intrigues me because it is very similar to what MSU and UM have. If Montana were to move to Division IA I would feel awful because my Bobcats were left behind, probably the same way that Sioux fans feel.

Finally, there is a difference between the two levels. If there wasn't there would be no need for classifications. We have nearly 30 more scholarships to give, and can have 85 guys on some sort of assistance. You may be able to compete on any given saturday, but a full schedule would take its toll on your depth. I-AA would love to have UND. Make the move!

[PCM]

UND has a severe case of Little Man's Syndrome at this point in time.

Yeah, seven Division I national championships will do that do you.

NDSU has been chasing UND's Divison I dust for decades and has been the school with envy problem. When NDSU wins a real Division I national championship (I don't count pretend Division I football), then perhaps the Bison can say that they're close to catching up. Until then, their claim of Division I success is all talk.

[BisonMav]

Yeah, seven Division I national championships will do that do you.

NDSU has been chasing UND's Divison I dust for decades and has been the school with envy problem. When NDSU wins a real Division I national championship (I don't count pretend Division I football), then perhaps the Bison can say that they're close to catching up. Until then, their claim of Division I success is all talk.

Thanks PCM, LMFAO!

[Bison Dan]

Yeah, seven Division I national championships will do that do you.

NDSU has been chasing UND's Divison I dust for decades and has been the school with envy problem. When NDSU wins a real Division I national championship (I don't count pretend Division I football), then perhaps the Bison can say that they're close to catching up. Until then, their claim of Division I success is all talk.

Poor pcm - if it was all about DI championships we start a hockey team. With only 13 true DI schools that play the sport it would be by far the easiest to win a NC.

[IowaBison]

I know many here are a bit upset with Bison fans putting down DII but the division is really down and most of it is a result of the lack of fully funded teams and these teams don't do anything to better themselves they would rather wait and have the scholarship limit lowered.

I'm not putting down DII, don't put words in my post.

[IowaBison]

You say Baloney, but then back up my point and agree with what I'm saying? Realize that this being a Sioux Sports site that when a say "a division 2 team" I am generally talking about UND.

When I said "just moved" I meant given a time frame of 2-4 years. Within that time frame, UND and NDSU would/should/could be ranked in the top 25, and again you seem to backup the point by saying that with this division 2 UND team that they could possibly be ranked.

Now add in a few years, and you have yourself a very successful "just moved up" DIAA team. That is what UND fans are saying. That the measuring stick isn't the NDSU vs UM game, but how easily UNC did in their first year (I realize they are struggling now, but they were never very good in their last years of D2), SDSU, and how NDSU are doing now. You can not argue those facts. Those teams just moved up and are becoming ranked the first few years in the top 25 during the season. It is not that big of a jump.

Your kidding yourself if you don't think UND could do the same if not better than NDSU currently does (did).

1. I agree with your points, but it is my opinion that there is a "wide" gap between the two divisions. Have you ever seen a DIAA football game? If not, go to one and then come back here and tell me there is a small gap.

2. I'm glad that you are optimistic regarding UND's success if a move is made. But you are basing this on what?

Also, if you mean UND, say UND. If you mean in 2-4 years, say 2-4 years.

[The Sicatoka]

With only 13 true DI schools that play the sport it would be by far the easiest to win a NC.

Did you just say that the only "true DI schools" are DI-As? You must have.

There are 33 DI schools playing DI hockey, but just 13 of them are DI-A; thus, by your own statement, the DI-As are the only "true DI schools."

Are you going to stand by that and go with your admission that NDSU is not a "true DI school" or would you like to retract your statement now?

PS - Who wants to tell DI-AAs New Hampshire and Maine or DI-AAAs BU and Denver (not "true DI schools") that they mean less to college hockey than DI-As Army, Air Force, and Connecticut ?

NCAA DI Hockey (numbers may be off by one or two schools):

DI-A: 13

DI-AA: 14 (not "true DI schools", sorry NDSU, your fan defined it)

DI-AAA: 6 (not "true DI schools" either)

DII: 20

DIII: 5

[PCM]

Poor pcm - if it was all about DI championships we start a hockey team.

NDSU tried that before going DI, remember? No more proof of NDSU's "Little Man's Syndrome" is needed.

And no, it's not just about national championships. When's the last time a reporter from the New York Times covered an NDSU athletic event? How often does NDSU football get mentioned in Minneapolis, Denver and Boston newspapers? Since when was NDSU known for producing world-class athletes in any sport? How many big-time professional athletes has NDSU produced compared to UND? Has ESPN ever covered an international athletic event live from an NDSU facility?

Hockey and Ralph Engelstad Arena put UND and Grand Forks on the international sports map. Whether or not people are hocky fans, they readily identify UND with the sport and know that the university runs one of the top hockey programs in the country. NDSU has nothing to compare to it, and that's a fact.

[Bison Dan]

NDSU tried that before going DI, remember? No more proof of NDSU's "Little Man's Syndrome" is needed.

And no, it's not just about national championships. When's the last time a reporter from the New York Times covered an NDSU athletic event? How often does NDSU football get mentioned in Minneapolis, Denver and Boston newspapers? Since when was NDSU known for producing world-class athletes in any sport? How many big-time professional athletes has NDSU produced compared to UND? Has ESPN ever covered an international athletic event live from an NDSU facility?

Hockey and Ralph Engelstad Arena put UND and Grand Forks on the international sports map. Whether or not people are hocky fans, they readily identify UND with the sport and know that the university runs one of the top hockey programs in the country. NDSU has nothing to compare to it, and that's a fact.

It's still a minor DI sport that few people follow, but hey if you think the world of sports revolve around hockey - great. Like when they canceled the NHL last year, did anyone notice? Most people don't care.

[jimdahl]

Your administration needs to sack up and play NDSU. After the game you may be able to say, "I told you so!!" But I doubt it.

UND's AD actually expressed an interest in playing NDSU just last summer, but NDSU said "hell no". A big part of it was certainly just spite (UND's previous AD refused to schedule NDSU when they began their transition), but I also heard plenty of speculation from Bison fans was that it was too risky to play a lower division team that might actually beat you.

It's really easy to say you can compete, but as said before, it is all talk. I can claim that I can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, but until I actually fight him nobody will ever know. I can proclaim that I can climb Mount Everest with one hand tied behind my back, but until I attempt it nobody will know. It's all conjecture.

This is a great point -- trying to compare teams is all speculation beyond actual outcomes on the field. UND has met NDSU over 100 times over 100+ years and leads 62-45-3. NDSU fans speculate that two years of removal from playing UND has grown them to a team we couldn't possibly compete with, UND fans aren't so sure; no surprises from either side. I personally believe that NDSU's scholarship advantage would tip the scales in their favor, but if Bison fans' speculation about being being in a completely different league from UND were completely true, the NDSU administration wouldn't be afraid to schedule us.

Finally, I haven't seen a single UND fan claim there's no difference between the two levels. The scholarship difference alone would make that an absurd statement. Those of us who favor UND reclassifying to I-AA are just saying there's ample evidence that the top teams in D-II could fit into D-IAA; we say that out of interest in I-AA, not to put it down.

[The Sicatoka]

... we start a hockey team. ... by far the easiest to win a NC.

So you'd "show up" and take a banner.

Really?

Tell that to DI-As without National Championships.

There are more without banners than with.

[The Sicatoka]

It's still a minor .... few people follow, ... Most people don't care.

The same can be said of DI-AA (and DII) football in the view of national media and national college football fans.

They don't really even care about MAC or WAC football unless a team is 9-0 or better. All they want is USC, Texas, FSU, and Notre Dame. To the world the rest, all the rest, is, well, minor.

[BisonMav]

........ the NDSU administration wouldn't be afraid to schedule us.

If the NDSU administration is afraid, why did they offer a 4 year home-and-home contract that was rejected by UND after several months of hedging. It's not spite by NDSU, just smart business practice.

[jimdahl]

If the NDSU administration is afraid, why did they offer a 4 year home-and-home contract that was rejected by UND after several months of hedging. It's not spite by NDSU, just smart business practice.

Mea culpa, I've honestly never heard that. Admittedly, the last I saw on the topic was late summer when NDSU's stance was adamant refusal. Do you have a link to NDSU making that offer since then?

[PCM]

It's still a minor DI sport that few people follow, but hey if you think the world of sports revolve around hockey - great.

I didn't say that. I said that unlike any of NDSU's athletic programs, UND's DI hockey program generates a huge amount of positive attention and media coverage for the school around the world, which is true. But thanks for missing the point by coming back with the all-too-predictable "nobody cares" canard. You guys are too easy.

[UND Fan]

I certainly had hoped that all the debating, arguing, smack (whatever you want to call it) between SU an UND fans would have subsided by now. In my opinion, it serves no purpose. NDSU (right or wrong) has taken the bold step to move up a division. Soon, UND will decide whether that same step is in our future.

If you guys want to continue this discussion, I respectfully ask that you start a new thread solely for that purpose. This thread was started to discuss recruiting AT UND!!!

Thanks!

[homer]

1. I agree with your points, but it is my opinion that there is a "wide" gap between the two divisions. Have you ever seen a DIAA football game? If not, go to one and then come back here and tell me there is a small gap.

2. I'm glad that you are optimistic regarding UND's success if a move is made. But you are basing this on what?

Also, if you mean UND, say UND. If you mean in 2-4 years, say 2-4 years.

I have attended a D I-AA football game. It was NDSU vs. SDSU. I did not think that the gap between either of those teams and upper level DII teams was "wide". I am not denying that there is a gap. I think anyone who says otherwise is foolish (as posted a number of times). But its not this crater that you make it out to be. I know you didn't get a chance to witness the DII playoffs first hand the last few years you guys were around, but there are some pretty good teams in there that could play D 1-AA football.

[IowaBison]

crater is your word, not mine.

And I don't disagree that there are some very good DII programs (I still follow DII) that 'could play'. I would be surprised to see GVSU, UND, or Pittsburg State to be in the top 25 in the years immediately following a hypothetical move.

GVSU would be lucky to be above .500 in the Gateway (and I don't mean that to be derogatory to the Lakers). UND and Pittsburg would be about the same (at best) in the Big Sky or the Great West.

I agree with Jim (who I think you can agree is quite balanced and objective) that the Bison would probably beat the Sioux right now. That would put them in the middle of the Great West and outside the top 25.