thoughts on the Betty

[BigGreyAnt41]

Question for someone who's seen them and counted: How big are the end unit seating systems at The Betty? I'm guessing about 9 or 10 rows and about 38 seats wide for about 750 "end seats" total.

I'm not sure how wide, but I think they're only about 8 rows high. Maybe they are 9 or 10, but I can only think of 8 in my head.

Remember also, they have to be able to be stored on the north and south walls when folded up, so they can't be too tall, but it would probably be possible to go a few rows higher and still fit.

[Smoggy]

The weight room in the Hyslop is way bigger than the weight room in the Betty.

Haven't been in the Betty's, but isn't it only used by bball and vball? Basically leaving the other weight room for all the other sports. Or did they get rid of the weight room in the Hyslop since the Wellness Center is being built?

[star2city]

Care to venture a guess as to which program it would hurt more?

No question. Although this year I did expect NDSU women's attendance to exceed their men's team, but those teams have gone in opposite directions. UND women's attendance should be easily capable of cracking the top 50 DI attendance - it takes only a 2400 average. Montana actually places 21st in DI attendance at 4200 (for 2003-4).

If UND, NDSU and SDSU were all added to the Big Sky, I think you'd want to have the SDSU games in the Ralph, as well, at least if the game were played on a Saturday night. Those games often drew well over 3000 at Hyslop--although they never had to be played on a Thursday which would keep visiting fans away. Not that I would miss the cowbells, mind you.

One issue with the Big Sky schedule is that the men's and women's schedules are mirror images: when Montana State men are playing at Idaho State, Idaho State women are at Montana State the same night. It doesn't lend itself well to travel if you follow both teams.

[bincitysioux]

Although I have been one of the supporters of the Betty, I must admit I am disappointed to learn that 3,064 constitutes a sell-out. Having been there, I would not have guessed that that's all it holds. As someone in this thread pointed out, the Betty's website claims a capacity of ~ 3,300, which is too small. Like many others, I have always been under the impression that it would hold between 3,600 and 4,000, which I also thought was on the small side, but was a number that I could live with, given UND's historical b-ball attendance combined with the state of the NCC (meaning our biggest drawing game is no longer on the schedule).

Still, I think this is being blown out of proportion, and hands down I prefer the Sioux Center to the REA, Hyslop, and Alerus Center. Hindsight is 20/20, but looking back, I think that refurbishing the old REA for basketball may have been a better option, but the Englestad Family/REA Inc. wasn't going to pay for that, so we gain the benefit of a new state of the art arena (albeit a little small) as opposed to the University having to pay the rennovation of the old REA. Perhaps a toss-up?

Speaking as an alum, I can say that I have gone to more games this year than I ever have since I was a student (when students got into the Hyslop for free), simply because the games are in the Betty and the atmosphere is absolutely spectacular. I would never want to step foot into the Hyslop again period, I would never go to another DII/NCC game in REA (the only games I'll go to in the Ralph again will require a Divisional reclassification so that NDSU, a Montana school, Big 10 school, or other significant DI opponent is on the schedule), and there is absolutely no way in hell that I will watch Sioux basketball in the Alerus!

The things that Sicatoka has been saying in this thread can be taken as Gospel. The capacity of the Sioux Center needs to be increased by a minimum of 1,000. This can be easily done in two ways. First, larger bleachers on the ends. I know they need to fold and store, but they are much smaller than what I anticipated they would be, and there is plenty of room for larger ones. I'd estimate that the bleachers could be at least half again if not 3/4 again the size they are now. Second, stop giving season basketball tickets to REA Suite and Club Lounge Seat holders. The people that sit in the Suites and Clubs in the REA can probably afford the $12 it costs to go to a basketball game if they want to. Also, the majority of Suite holders are corporations that have an interest in Sioux hockey for marketing reasons, rather than actual loyalty to the rest of the University's athletic programs. To me it is worth it to be able to sell those seats to willing buyers than to allot them to those who won't use them and count them as tickets sold/heads counted.

[southpaw]

I agree this issue has been blown out of proportion. Look at some of what you people are proposing. Frist, you have to look at the overall picture which is: when the betty was built, it was NEVER intended to be a conference game arena. That's why games were played in the Ralph last year. You're basically asking REA to have seen at least one year before-hand that the atmosphere at the ralph would suck and that coaches would ask to have all games at the betty.

When the Betty was built here's where things were at:

Volleyball - Betty

Non-Conf BB - Betty

Practice - Betty

Conf BB - Ralph

Big Games - Ralph

Seems like expecting the REA to know that the Betty would be used and there would be ONE sell-out in it's second season is ludacris. People are acting like the world is coming to an end because there was a sellout. The Xcel Energy Center sold out every game for it's first three years (could still be selling out, i don't know), but people didn't act like the sky was falling because there was a lowly 18,000 seats.

Don't look at the issue as the betty wasn't built big enough for conference bball, because it was never intended for that. Look at the issue as, some changes have been made this past year and some issues are still being worked out. I know a lot of people who think they've been screwed over by the Ralph, but have a little faith that they'll learn from this one issue and be prepared next time there is a potentially huge game. I'd think once the playoffs get here, the REA will be ready to handle a 4k crowd. If not, then let's come back and discuss how the REA management is a bunch of idiots.

[teamsioux]

UND had played in the Ralph already and knew it was crappy atmosphere. Second, no one thought for the future?...they had to conceive it was possible to play in the Betty, otherwise how the heck can they be in charge(oh yeah, most everyone is gone)....one must look to future possibilities, scheduling conflicts, knowing DI was a real possibility, etc. How can a $7 million project that was rushed be blown out of proportion, why couldn't they have waited....if it was funded directly from the athletic budget, I think we would hear more complaining about it. The biggest problems in UND athletics all come back to money (womens hockey, move to DI), and 7 million is a pretty nice chunk. Most peoples gripe is that everyone should have waited to see things more clearly than jumping head first.....the World Juniors were fun, but once again no one shows any figures that it turned much of a profit to justify it was a must that had to be built in a hurry.

-It has been stated only one game has been a sellout, well two other games were very close. One would of have if students had been back (UNO) and the other probably would have (Mary) had it been a conference game. Remember that attendance is going to be down a little bit for the year with the goofy scheduling including all the Thursday games. Is scheduling ever gets back to Fri-Sat combos, I think we will amass 3,000 quite often, as history has proven.

-If they were so sure nothing but VB and non-conference games were going to be played there, why even make it a 4,000 seat capacity(remember that is what they told us), what an idiotic move that was then. Non-conference games would at the most need 2/3 of that...I also can't imagine VB needing more than 2,000.

-Another problem, if UND goes DI, which is almost inevitable....there would be huge conflicts with the Ralph. Conferences such as the Big Sky have a schedule that has either the men or women at home for two games almost every weekend for 2 1/2 months, DI was already a real possibility when the Betty was being planned.

I would imagine there would be many more 3,000 + crowds if we start bringing better teams other than UMC and Mayville.

How can no one have looked towards the future, especially when there was no rush to build this....I think everyone could of have withstood another year or two at the Hyslop to avoid a multi-million $$ mistake.

[UND Fan]

UND had played in the Ralph already and knew it was crappy atmosphere. Second, no one thought for the future?...they had to conceive it was possible to play in the Betty, otherwise how the heck can they be in charge(oh yeah, most everyone is gone)....one must look to future possibilities, scheduling conflicts, knowing DI was a real possibility, etc. How can a $7 million project that was rushed be blown out of proportion, why couldn't they have waited....if it was funded directly from the athletic budget, I think we would hear more complaining about it. The biggest problems in UND athletics all come back to money (womens hockey, move to DI), and 7 million is a pretty nice chunk. Most peoples gripe is that everyone should have waited to see things more clearly than jumping head first.....the World Juniors were fun, but once again no one shows any figures that it turned much of a profit to justify it was a must that had to be built in a hurry.

-It has been stated only one game has been a sellout, well two other games were very close. One would of have if students had been back (UNO) and the other probably would have (Mary) had it been a conference game. Remember that attendance is going to be down a little bit for the year with the goofy scheduling including all the Thursday games. Is scheduling ever gets back to Fri-Sat combos, I think we will amass 3,000 quite often, as history has proven.

-If they were so sure nothing but VB and non-conference games were going to be played there, why even make it a 4,000 seat capacity(remember that is what they told us), what an idiotic move that was then. Non-conference games would at the most need 2/3 of that...I also can't imagine VB needing more than 2,000.

-Another problem, if UND goes DI, which is almost inevitable....there would be huge conflicts with the Ralph. Conferences such as the Big Sky have a schedule that has either the men or women at home for two games almost every weekend for 2 1/2 months, DI was already a real possibility when the Betty was being planned.

I would imagine there would be many more 3,000 + crowds if we start bringing better teams other than UMC and Mayville.

How can no one have looked towards the future, especially when there was no rush to build this....I think everyone could of have withstood another year or two at the Hyslop to avoid a multi-million $$ mistake.

I agree with most of your thoughts except your last one. Engelstad money was used to build the Betty and they wanted it done prior to the Jrs. It is that simple. With a set $ amount to spend and a limited time to build it, this is what we ended up with. Is it perfect for our needs, heck no but it is a great building compared to Hyslop and when compared to most DII arenas. We just need to figure how/where to put another 1,000 seats or so.

As I have said before, we can debate the past all we want but it won't change things. Therefore, let's talk about how we can make things better with what we have!

[UND92,96]

Does anybody have any idea as to what larger bleachers for behind the baskets will cost? Or whether REA has or will be looking into it?

[The Sicatoka]

The Xcel Energy Center sold out every game for it's first three years (could still be selling out, i don't know), but people didn't act like the sky was falling because there was a lowly 18,000 seats.

The only folks crying down there are the ones who didn't by season tickets.

And that's what sports teams want: season ticket holders.

If you can walk up to the windows and buy a ticket and get in that's not what any sports team wants. They want full, pre-sold arenas.

If they turn some folks away at the game day window that might encourage more folks to buy the full season ticket package for next year. (That's what they want.)

[The Sicatoka]

As I have said before, we can debate the past all we want but it won't change things. Therefore, let's talk about how we can make things better with what we have!

Amen.

[UND92,96]

The only folks crying down there are the ones who didn't by season tickets.

And that's what sports teams want: season ticket holders.

If you can walk up to the windows and buy a ticket and get in that's not what any sports team wants. They want full, pre-sold arenas.

If they turn some folks away at the game day window that might encourage more folks to buy the full season ticket package for next year. (That's what they want.)

It would be interesting to know how many season ticketholders there are right now for UND basketball. Presumably, 2500 is the ceiling, as that is the number of permanent seats. I'm sure the end bleachers, even if bigger ones are obtained, will always be student seating/general admission. I don't think we're anywhere close to maxed out right now, but with the way the women are playing, and the prospects for the next few years, I would certainly hope for a nice jump next season.

[sultan]

The other thing you are forgetting. What if the men's teams interest wasn't at an all time low. If there was even a medium interest in the men's team the seating situation would even be more of a issue.

[The Sicatoka]

From the NCAA, here are average home attendance numbers for the 2003-2004 season:

Team Men Women

UND 2550 2387

NDSU 2440 2512

SDSU 3375 2484

USD 3076 2006

Augie 2591 1891

SCSU 2764 <1588 (not in top 10)

Mont 3605 4210

Mont St 3644 1779

Weber St 4984 963

E Wash 2765 753

Port St 981 284

Sac St 1017 318

Idaho St 2140 883

N Az 1782 408

BSC 2672 1376

NCC 2574 1767

DI 5154 1572

DII 864 472

DIII 427 212

[Cratter]

Engelstad money was used to build the Betty and they wanted it done prior to the Jrs. It is that simple.

And they wanted it done before the Jrs....why...?

[UND92,96]

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but for those who point out that UND has "only" had one sellout, keep in mind that the NCC, in its infinite wisdom, has saddled UND with a conference schedule as follows:

One Saturday night game;

One Saturday afternoon game;

Four Thursday night games.

By way of comparison, St. Cloud State gets four Saturday night games this year. I can live with the whole Thursday-Saturday thing, but come on, at least give us a few more Saturday night games! I would hope things will be better next year.

[bincitysioux]

When did this Thursday-Saturday combo go into effect? Is this the first year? Why did they go to that format? Friday-Saturday seems like a much better deal, or maybe even one or two Saturday night-Sunday afternooners. I'd think alot of people wouldn't mind taking the family to a Sunday afternoon basketball game after the NFL season comes to an end. Was it changed because of all the hockey schools in the NCC?

[BigGreyAnt41]

When did this Thursday-Saturday combo go into effect? Is this the first year? Why did they go to that format? Friday-Saturday seems like a much better deal, or maybe even one or two Saturday night-Sunday afternooners. I'd think alot of people wouldn't mind taking the family to a Sunday afternoon basketball game after the NFL season comes to an end. Was it changed because of all the hockey schools in the NCC?

I believe it happened when the NCC changed from when NDSU, SDSU and UNC left, and UMD joined. There aren't any designated travel partners like there used to be. So more travelling is neccesary.

[Smoggy]

Assuming we get to host regionals, where would they be held? Weren't they at the Betty last year? Was attendance/sell outs a problem?

[UND92,96]

Assuming we get to host regionals, where would they be held? Weren't they at the Betty last year? Was attendance/sell outs a problem?

It would be at the Betty. Sadly, I don't think lack of capacity will be a problem. Post-season games simply don't draw as well as do regular season ones. It's the same way in football (except the UC-Davis semi in 2001). I believe the Concordia-St. Paul game last year drew 1800-plus, while the region title game in 2001 drew a little over 2000.

[sultan]

There was a guy from the Ralph on Tim's radio show this morning. He seemed surprised there was even talk about the Betty being larger. He said basketball traditionally only averages 2100. In the last decade or so I think he might be off on that one. When you look at basketball averages you have to have room for the larger attended games to offset for the smaller games. Right now we don't have room for any larger attended games. Just last year we had over 5000 for one game. When he was asked what the capacity of the Betty is he seemed a little mystified. He said he thought it might be around 3200 or 3300. He wasn't sure. Am I mistaken but they don't set up folding chairs over there do they. When you have permanent seats why is it so hard to count how many seats the place holds. It also baffles me when they seem so shocked there would be any reason to have more seats in the building. All you have to do is go back the last 4 or 5 years and count the number of games that wouldn't have fit in the Betty. If you actually looked at the number of games over 3064 we would probably be shocked.

[sioux goo]

[sioux goo]

There was a guy from the Ralph on Tim's radio show this morning. He seemed surprised there was even talk about the Betty being larger. He said basketball traditionally only averages 2100. In the last decade or so I think he might be off on that one. When you look at basketball averages you have to have room for the larger attended games to offset for the smaller games. Right now we don't have room for any larger attended games. Just last year we had over 5000 for one game. When he was asked what the capacity of the Betty is he seemed a little mystified. He said he thought it might be around 3200 or 3300. He wasn't sure. Am I mistaken but they don't set up folding chairs over there do they. When you have permanent seats why is it so hard to count how many seats the place holds. It also baffles me when they seem so shocked there would be any reason to have more seats in the building. All you have to do is go back the last 4 or 5 years and count the number of games that wouldn't have fit in the Betty. If you actually looked at the number of games over 3064 we would probably be shocked.

The Hyslop held 6,000 people the game of the national title game in 97 for WBB, and if you look in the media guides, UND has averaged way over 2100 a season, obvioiusly this person from REA did not do their homework.

[LennonIsTheMan]

One thing everyone needs to remember is that yes, architects and engineers design the building and write the specifications. But this ONLY happens after being approved and driven by the owners of the facility. Hence, the "approval process". I'd say the owners of the facility did a poor job of putting the facility together and making sure things like concessions stands in the hallway didn't happen. I think rushing the facility to be finished was a big mistake.

[UND Fan]

There was a guy from the Ralph on Tim's radio show this morning. He seemed surprised there was even talk about the Betty being larger. He said basketball traditionally only averages 2100. In the last decade or so I think he might be off on that one. When you look at basketball averages you have to have room for the larger attended games to offset for the smaller games. Right now we don't have room for any larger attended games. Just last year we had over 5000 for one game. When he was asked what the capacity of the Betty is he seemed a little mystified. He said he thought it might be around 3200 or 3300. He wasn't sure. Am I mistaken but they don't set up folding chairs over there do they. When you have permanent seats why is it so hard to count how many seats the place holds. It also baffles me when they seem so shocked there would be any reason to have more seats in the building. All you have to do is go back the last 4 or 5 years and count the number of games that wouldn't have fit in the Betty. If you actually looked at the number of games over 3064 we would probably be shocked.

Disappointing info! Who has the guy? Does anyone know?

[UND92,96]

For the record, UND's average women's basketball attendance since 1999-2000 is as follows:

99-00 2546

00-01 2539

01-02 2843

02-03 2566

03-04 2387

04-05 2231

05-06 2265 (so far)

That's as far back as the NCAA site goes. And of course, these averages include traditionally poorly-attended early season non-conference games. Conference game averages would be substantially larger. I believe basketball attendance figures at the Ralph are a bit dubious due to how suites are counted, but for what it's worth, the conference game average last year was roughly 3500.