Sioux Tribal officials meeting wednesday

[ESPNInsider]

I've read the stories about the "discussion" but I've yet to read anything about a 3-2 vote.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that's weird, there isn't really much talk about the vote itself, only the discussions, maybe there will be more after today's meeting.

[Diggler]

Donna Brown, assistant director of American Indian Student Services at UND, presented the audience with slides that showed clothing students from competing schools made that said "Sioux Suck"or that showed caricatures of American Indians in derogatory ways.

Brown said such displays will give non-Indians the wrong message.

"If these non-native kids are seeing these kind of images, I have to wonder just how much respect they are going to have for native people when they see these kinds of things,"Brown said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. How is UND supposed to prevent other schools fans from saying or making shirts that say this? That is up to the other schools and even they can't prevent the shirts or signs from being made, only prevent them from being allowed in arenas.

2. How stupid does Donna Brown think people are? Who bases their beliefs of other people on a shirt or sign? Despite the fact that GK acts like a racist jerk on this board, I don't think every single person who wants the name changed is like this. In fact, I think most aren't.

[ScottM]

I remember chanting/shouting "Bison Suck" and "Gophers Suck" many times as a student and alum, but I haven't seen PETA or ALF make a stink about it ... yet. Good grief, if "Sioux Suck" is her idea of "racism" she really needs to pull her head out and give it a good shake.

[dakotadan]

"We are the only race of people to be used as mascots," Taken Alive said. He said some have used the example of the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame, but there is no comparison. "The moment one of those little leprechauns walks into the room, we'll have to listen to him," Taken Alive said.

So by this logic UND can keep the name Fighting Sioux but just change the logo to an arrow head or eagle feathers. Then UND could state that the day an arrow head or a group of eagle feathers walks into the room and complains about the logo, we will have to listen to them.

[PCM]

Marc Ranfranz on opposition cheering:

"I take it as an offense toward our team. Some people just read too much into it. They're saying it at a game. They're saying it about the team, not about the Sioux people. It goes along with the rivalries of each school."

[ScottM]

So by this logic UND can keep the name Fighting Sioux but just change the logo to an arrow head or eagle feathers. Then UND could state that the day an arrow head or a group of eagle feathers walks into the room and complains about the logo, we will have to listen to them. 

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You'd better listen to this guy.

[BigGreyAnt41]

"We are the only race of people to be used as mascots," Taken Alive said. He said some have used the example of the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame, but there is no comparison. "The moment one of those little leprechauns walks into the room, we'll have to listen to him," Taken Alive said.

Apparently all Irish are "leprechauns." Now if that isn't blatent stereotyping, then I don't know what is.

[Mad Man]

Marc Ranfranz on opposition cheering:

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This guy isn't a real Sioux, just ask GrahamKracker.

[redwing77]

Gosh I sound like a defeatist, but with the 3-2 vote, I'm betting that the NCAA cites that specifically in rejection of the appeal.

On an even dumber note (is dumber a word?), I wouldn't be surprised if they make an exemption that is temporary just for UND, stating that the decree would go into effect 1 day after the regional at the Ralph.

I know, I come up with odd things, but hey, if they can come up with the ruling to begin with, would it surprise any of you if they draft something crappy like I suggested up?

[kfah1]

Marc Ranfranz on opposition cheering:

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Although it's from 2002, it is still a great article and very much relevant to this issue and just (once again) supports the argument to keep the name!

[Mad Man]

Yeah, that's weird, there isn't really much talk about the vote itself, only the discussions, maybe there will be more after today's meeting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just watched the 10 o

[Blackheart]

1. How is UND supposed to prevent other schools fans from saying or making shirts that say this? That is up to the other schools and even they can't prevent the shirts or signs from being made, only prevent them from being allowed in arenas.

2. How stupid does Donna Brown think people are? Who bases their beliefs of other people on a shirt or sign? Despite the fact that GK acts like a racist jerk on this board, I don't think every single person who wants the name changed is like this. In fact, I think most aren't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So when they say Sioux suck, do we really think they are talking about the Native Americans or maybe are they just pissed because their bball/hockey/football team is getting their ass handed to them.

When did we all turn into such delicate flowers?

Blackheart....

[MafiaMan]

So when they say Sioux suck, do we really think they are talking about the Native Americans or maybe are they just pissed because their bball/hockey/football team is getting their ass handed to them.

When did we all turn into such delicate flowers?

Blackheart....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That issue could be resolved fairly easily by asking other schools (I've only heard this at NDSU to be honest with you) to make an effort to stop the "Sioux suck" chants at sporting events. Seriously, though, I'm more offended by UND's student section chanting "f*** Mankato" at games that I've been too but that's another story.

The really interesting part I thought was the "examples" of discrimination and humiliation in the form of t-shirts and parade floats. The samples I saw were t-shirts from the 1980's and one person opposed to the name was recalling racist floats in parades in the 1970's. Welcome to 2005! For crying out loud, tell me those images still exist on campus. Tell me the last time you saw a guy wearing a Bison t-shirt with an Indian image between the bull's legs? Yea, that t-shirt made me sick when I saw it...I remember seeing it when I was in college 15 years ago. I'm telling you...if someone wore that to a sporting event on campus, they would get the snot beat out of them today...and justifiably so.

[PCM]

The really interesting part I thought was the "examples" of discrimination and humiliation in the form of t-shirts and parade floats.

Edited September 9, 2005 by PCM

[OldSchool]

Tomorrow there will be a meeting in Bismark with all of the Sioux Tribal leaders and w/ the heads of UND.  I hope to see you all there.  If you need a ride, we still have some room  (yeah right, but I thought I'd offer anyways).  We're leaving at 8am.

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You have room anyways..excellent grammer Graham Krack...that word should have been removed from your vocabulary in First Grade...I still will bet you the name stays.

[Driveforshow]

If the name goes ,so should some programs.

[redwing77]

If the name goes ,so should some programs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THough I'd expect attitudes such as this to pop up, I don't think that should happen.

Yes, there will be MANY hard feelings if UND or any on the list is forced to change their nickname.

However, punishing people who may not have been involved in the decision, especially future generations, is hardly fair.

[mksioux]

THough I'd expect attitudes such as this to pop up, I don't think that should happen.

Yes, there will be MANY hard feelings if UND or any on the list is forced to change their nickname.

However, punishing people who may not have been involved in the decision, especially future generations, is hardly fair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know, it may not be the appropriate response, but this is a common reaction when you turn democracy on its head and allow the minority to dictate to the majority.

[Driveforshow]

No it's time we fight back and stop giving. If the people want the education ,then way is our biggest fight against our own students, staff and native american council on campus. This is not going to be a cheap fix, so the money needs to come from somewhere, if it's not from these program's do you feel we should drop programs from the paying man. I wish some student's that have got a great education and have taken that to their reservation to make life better for all , would send some letters to the NCAA and till their story, we don't hear about those stories.

[tony]

Jim - I don't mean this is a personal attack but if you think it is, tell me and I'll remove/edit it and apologize later.

GrahamKracker, you are being a horrible proponent of your position. In fact, you almost sound like you are trying to drum up emotional backlash to it. I can't speak for them myself, but in my experience Sioux tribal leaders have been very respectful when talking to UND... you just seem hellbent on creating schisms. Obviously, your goal is not to change anybody's mind (or even listen to them), it's just to rip them and call them racists. Well, has it ever occurred to you that maybe some people don't understand the Sioux's position or that they can think the nickname deal is a lot of fuss about nothing and yet not be evil or racist? If you were at the NCAA pleading Standing Rock's case, are these the types of things you think would win them over - insults and hyperbole?

On the flip side, the suggestions about retribution against the Sioux for daring to oppose the nickname are just as ridiculous. Do the people doing that really think that is going to strengthen your argument? "We're honoring them but if they make a fuss, we'll go after their reservations, their gambling, cancel their Indian programs, etc." Anyway, why talk about retribution against the Sioux when, as far as I can tell, nobody who supports the nickname think that the Sioux people care? To me, these are irreconciable paradoxes which suggest to me that folks presenting them aren't quite being truthful with themselves. Anyway, if you were at the NCAA pleading UND's case, are these the types of things you think would win them over?

Honor the Sioux by emulating the best of their elders, and respect other opinions and other people and think harder before you go spouting off... hehehe, that's advice I sure could learn to take.

[Diggler]

Could someone who wants programs cut should the name change explain the logic of doing that? As a rule we, the people who want to keep the name, believe that a majority of Native Americans either support or don't care about the name and it's a small minority that are actually offended by the name. Let's just for sake of argument that this is a fact, why should this majority of Native Americans be punished because ultimately UND was forced to change the name? That doesn't make sense to me and only serves as revenge. How does revenge solve anything in this situation?

Jeez, I think I just said something remarkably similair to tony. This is a dark day in my life.

[Driveforshow]

Tony well said !!!!!!!

[mksioux]

Could someone who wants programs cut should the name change explain the logic of doing that? As a rule we, the people who want to keep the name, believe that a majority of Native Americans either support or don't care about the name and it's a small minority that are actually offended by the name.

[GrahamKracker]

I remember chanting/shouting "Bison Suck" and "Gophers Suck" many times as a student and alum, but I haven't seen PETA or ALF make a stink about it ... yet.  Good grief, if "Sioux Suck" is her idea of "racism" she really needs to pull her head out and give it a good shake. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Comparing us, the "Sioux people", to animals, good one.

[GrahamKracker]

Apparently all Irish are "leprechauns." Now if that isn't blatent stereotyping, then I don't know what is.

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Here's the website..... http://UND.collegesports.com/trads/nd-m-fb-mas.html

Before you speak/type, please do your research, because when you don't you spread your ignorance to others. Hetche to.