UND files its appeal

[jimdahl]

This is exactly what the NCAA intended.

I hope the sentiment doesn't change unless and untill all remedies are completely exhausted, including administrative, legal, and political.

That's what I meant by "doesn't win a reversal" -- all administrative and legal remedies are exhausted and failed to overturn the NCAA's rule. Yes, the NCAA wanted to punish UND into changing the name; if that punishment sticks (again, after all remedies are exhausted), many would question if weathering the punishment to keep the name was worth it.

Regardless, this discussion is a little premature. I just wanted to clarify that I was commenting on the potential situation "if UND doesn't win a reversal", as opposed to suggesting they just give up now.

I really do like the breadth of the appeal and the strong suggestion that a lawsuit would be forthcoming if the appeal weren't ruled upon favorably.

[mksioux]

That's what I meant by "doesn't win a reversal" -- all administrative and legal remedies are exhausted and failed to overturn the NCAA's rule. Yes, the NCAA wanted to punish UND into changing the name; if that punishment sticks (again, after all remedies are exhausted), many would question if weathering the punishment to keep the name was worth it.

Regardless, this discussion is a little premature. I just wanted to clarify that I was speaking about the potential situation "if UND doesn't win a reversal", as opposed to suggesting they just give up now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea, I know that's what you meant. I was just reinforcing it I guess. I also happen to think it's a reasonable position once all remedies are exhausted to "cave" rather than punishing the athletes. The NCAA policy is much more than changing jersies come playoff time. I don't think it's a sustainable policy. In other words, this policy (as currently applied) and the Sioux nickname can not peacefully co-exist.

And yes, many will question whether it's worth "wasting" resources to commence litigation over a nickname. But I do, however, think it's worth fighting regardless of the eventual outcome. If a mere administrative appeal is all that is launched before dropping the name, few will accept the decision and resentment will rightfully abound.

[PCM]

When discussing discrimination due to race, he says "but also probably illegal."

I like this wording and I suspect that it was purposely stated that way. When the NCAA announced its policy on Aug. 5, Myles Brand and Walter Harrison tried to pretend that they were lawyers, tossing around legal terms and claiming that case law was on the NCAA's side. Ironically, the only person from the NCAA who didn't try to speak as a lawyer was Charlotte Westerhaus, who is an attorney.

Unlike the NCAA, UND is not going to presume that it's legally right. Only the courts can determine that.

And when he mentioned there are 400 American Indian students, he says "probably proportionately more than any institution of higher education in the United States."

These things should have been further researched.  Get a lawyer to find out if it truly is illegal and find out if it is the highest proportion or maybe just "nearly" the highest, proportionately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem is that when you make categorical statements, there's always someone only too happy to prove them wrong. If you don't know for a fact that something's true, then it's best to say "probably."

[ScottM]

Unlike the NCAA, UND is not going to presume that it's legally right. Only the courts can determine that.

As well, this is not a "legal" document whereby you would use a statute, regulation or caselaw to justify the statement of illegality. "Conditional" language, as used here, can reinforce your point, while also presenting a veiled threat of future action.

[HockeyMom]

i know i spelt my name wrong

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know why, but I laughed really hard at that. A much needed laugh, thank you.

[Taz Boy]

I like this wording and I suspect that it was purposely stated that way. When the NCAA announced its policy on Aug. 5, Myles Brand and Walter Harrison tried to pretend that they were lawyers, tossing around legal terms and claiming that case law was on the NCAA's side. Ironically, the only person from the NCAA who didn't try to speak as a lawyer was Charlotte Westerhaus, who is an attorney.

Unlike the NCAA, UND is not going to presume that it's legally right. Only the courts can determine that.

Exactly. I thought the phrase "probably illegal" was slightly tongue-in-cheek, and therefore that much more powerful. It purports that UND is not so arrogant as to assume the law supports their argument; but also indicates a willingness to spend whatever time/resources necessary to find out. I actually laughed when I read this.

I think the effort to devalue, or de-prioritize, the tribal support is noteworthy, but I'm not so sure it will be that effective to sway the NCAA. They apparently have hung their hats on this one. Still, if the Exec Committee is true to their word of looking at the entirety of the situation, then I think the case is still quite strong for an exemption.

Hats off to Kupchella, whom I've given some personal criticism towards during the previous nickname debates when I thought he was wandering off the reservation- so to speak. I think this statement has the right balance of tone, certainty, confidence, and respect to all parties. It doesn't brow-beat nor does it give undue praise. It is a good midwestern-logic argument that should hit home with the average sports fan not driven by blind ambition for Cosmic Justice.

The NCAA will quite likely strike the logo coverup requirement for the 06 Men's Hockey Regionals at REA. It is clear from the appeal that Kupchella knows this is a given. However, beyond that, it is much less predictable. I suspect Illinois, Utah, and the rest of the chosen ones are watching closely...

taz

[Sioux-cia]

I really like these points from the appeal

'We made a bid and the NCAA accepted it.  Typically, an existing contract cannot be unilaterally modified.  The NCAA and UND reached "agreement" some time ago and by the NCAA's acceptance of our bid, entered into an agreement.'

'In the shorter term, the new policy is a breach of fundamental fairness in that it envelops our student-athletes in a way that's unfair.  It translates an "opinion" by members of a Committee into a competitive disadvantage for athletes by losing the right they may have earned to compete with a home venue advantage in play-off competition.'

'We certainly have no intention, in any case, of covering images at the site of the regional ice hockey tournament.  To do so would imply that we are somehow ashamed of an 80 year history of one of the nation's most successful athletic programs and of our link to the proud heritage of this region.'

'

[mksioux]

Spirit Lake general assembly votes to withdraw support of Fighting Sioux nickname

[dallassiouxfan]

Spirit Lake general assembly votes to withdraw support of Fighting Sioux nickname

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This can't be good

[Sioux-cia]

This can't be good

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I guess being called 'hanging around the fort Sioux' and accused of having 'plantation negro mentality' has more of an impact on their sensibilities than all the American Indian programs and services UND provides does.

I'm disappointed that they didn't continue the support in spite of the outside pressure they must have been deluged with. I guess they lack sufficient strength and fortitude to stand up to it. It must have been tremendous.

[PCM]

Frankly, I doubt that the NCAA would have granted UND's appeal on the basis of rather weak support from one Sioux tribe. Besides, that's not where UND is hanging its hat. It's advancing the idea that tribal support doesn't mean much when it can be taken away just as easily as it's given, which the Spirit Lake Sioux just demonstrated in a timely manner.

[GrahamKracker]

Frankly, I doubt that the NCAA would have granted UND's appeal on the basis of rather weak support from one Sioux tribe. Besides, that's not where UND is hanging its hat. It's advancing the idea that tribal support doesn't mean much when it can be taken away just as easily as it's given, which the Spirit Lake Sioux just demonstrated in a timely manner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should have been there, at the Spirit Lake Council meeting, it was awesome! So many TRUE SIOUX stood up against the logo. I knew that this would be the outcome, but I didn't know it would have went this well. For all of the people in this area "honoring" the Sioux, there sure weren't many at the meeting, I wonder why?

[PCM]

For all of the people in this area "honoring" the Sioux, there sure weren't many at the meeting, I wonder why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Were they invited?

[Diggler]

You should have been there, at the Spirit Lake Council meeting, it was awesome!  So many TRUE SIOUX stood up against the logo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As opposed to those POSER SIOUX who stand up for the name. Damn Hang Around the Fort Sioux and double damn those non-Sioux rabbit chokers.

[CVCL]

For all of the people in this area "honoring" the Sioux, there sure weren't many at the meeting, I wonder why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably because Sioux Nation Councils represent a suposedly sovereign nation. BTW, were you really there?

[Sioux-cia]

[USA]

You should have been there, at the Spirit Lake Council meeting, it was awesome!  So many TRUE SIOUX stood up against the logo. I knew that this would be the outcome, but I didn't know it would have went this well.  For all of the people in this area "honoring" the Sioux, there sure weren't many at the meeting, I wonder why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey GrahemCrackhead~ Are you going to go after the local police force next for having a "Chief" of police? Or is that okay with you since they are respected leaders in the society? What if UND changed its nickname to the Fighting Chiefs? I suppose you would get your thong in a bunch over that as well.

[Goon]

Probably because Sioux Nation Councils represent a suposedly sovereign nation. BTW, were you really there?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GK is trolling again.

[The Sicatoka]

Since the policy includes references to Indians but not to Vikings or Irish, it discriminates on the basis of race, which is not only wrong but also probably illegal.

Who is empowered to grant or deny the use of words in the public domain? Who controls the use of Irish, Scandinavians (Vikings), Mountaineers,

[HockeyMom]

100 out of over 5000 enrolled members?

That's a really poor tournout. Also consider that several of those who attended were probably not enrolled members.

[ScottM]

100 out of over 5000 enrolled members?

That's a really poor tournout. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rest probably have better things to do, like work, study, read to the kids, etc.

[legend334]

100 out of over 5000 enrolled members?

That's a really poor tournout.  Also consider that several of those who attended were probably not enrolled members.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

5% turn out isnt that good??? again minority rules...in his eyes

Graham....if you get your wish and like they say....you may get what you wish for....i hope your children will enjoy their education at UND....oh thats right...they wont be able to come here....because in 20 years no one will remember the Sioux and what they stood for.....

[PCM]

What's the figure being tossed around here--400 NA students at UND?  If we use 13,000 as an estimate of last year's enrollment, that's about 3% of the total. I have no idea how that makes UND rank nationally, but, for comparison, Montana State uas 244 NA's, Montana has 300, and Northern Arizona has 1303...those are figures available fairly easily from the web, and UND should have access to those numbers from D.C. for virtually all public universities.

It's not as easy as you think it is to get enrollment numbers from universities. Some of them make them available publicly and some don't. Some make them available, but they're hard to find.

It took me over two weeks to find out SDSU's total enrollment from 2004 and its number of American Indian students that year. There are sources on the Web that listed this information, but I'm glad I didn't use them because they weren't accurate. If somone from SDSU hadn't e-mailed me the numbers, I'd still only be guessing what they were.

[siouxjoy]

[PCM]

The Chronicle reports number of students by ethnicity for each state; those come from institutional reports that are made available to accrediting organizations and to the DOE...those numbers are available to university administrators. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and compiling all that information to avoid saying "probably" would be a time-consuming task. In addition, the percentage of American Indian enrollment at a university doesn't mean much unless you compare it to the percentage of Native American population in a state. It has to be put into some context.