Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[dlsiouxfan]

Still don't care about the Summit League, went to Sioux Men's and Women's Basketball games in the

Meltdown at the Ralph, lucky if there were 1800 people in the REA, and by halftime of Men's game less

than a 1,000, and many of those tickets were complimentary. So, reality is Hockey and Football are the

only sports on campus that really mean anything, and the Summit has nothing to do with those. Alas, the

Summit League and that wonderful run to the NCAA tournament by the Bison, not likely to happen again for

oh say, 20 years or so, so piss on the Summit League. In Grand Forks, Hockey will always be king, whether it's

Red River High, Central high, Senior High or UND, Fargo and Bison fans will never understand that. Right on Goon.

Mature response. Thanks for your worthless contribution to this thread.

[FSSD]

I suppose some opposed to the Fighting Sioux name are hung up on trying to be politically correct as some posters contend. But I think there are a lot of people who, while not paying great attention to the debate, do not understand all the nastiness expressed by many on the topic. The unresolved nastiness-- seems to be a good enough reason for some Summit League followers to hope that UND doesn't get an invite into the Summit League until UND can put this issue in the past. (Notice I do not say dump or retain the name -- I really could not care less about the name.)

I hope that you are not basing your opinion of a university and alum on nonaffiliated message board posts. If that is the case, Bisonville would send NDSU back to indy status or the Oral Roberts message board recently discussing its road trip up north with less than appropriate language would make them an indy also. I think you see my point.. message boards have lots of noise and when you are dealing with a PC topic and a group that has stated by any and all means possible .. .. it gets a little messy at time. I must say I do like fourwindsboy though.. he is the most entertaining of the group. He has not been around much since the real reason for the naming change was exposed... it was classic.

I just read the most recent three pages of posts in this thread. If UND can't figure it out -- why should the rest of the Summit League risk having to deal with your baggage? I'm all for UND joining the Summit League WITHOUT the baggage. I don't care how UND addresses the baggage--either work it out with the Tribe(s) or just dump the name--just leave the baggage behind. And then: welcome aboard.

I can see why they don't want UND's baggage. I mean - Summit League volleyball games with players leaving the court crying because of the fans/baseball players actions in the stands or fights in bathrooms between two schools basketball players during conference tournaments because of racial slurs. I am just saying that people need to keep things in perspective. We do not live in a perfect society and sometimes we all lose our way. But with the help of those around us most of us seem to figure it out. We all have our flaws.

I am sure that UND would have set earlier timelines in the settlement with the NCAA if they would have known about Summit League interest. As, I am sure that UND did note that the Summit was not interested in either NDSU or SDSU until the end of the transitional period. So, I do believe that UND did feel safe that a date two years prior to the end of transition should not interfere with any potential conference opportunities. But, it turns out that this was not a safe assumption.

Serious question: I'm not a hockey fan but I wonder how much of the fight over whether to retain the name is influenced by hockey supporters. Would the discussion be different if UND did not have hockey? I have the sense the name would have been dumped a long time ago if you didn't have hockey -- but I readily admit I have no support for that conclusion.

We would be in the same spot we are today. In my opinion "As a UND Alum", this has little to do with hockey or hockey fans. But, I am sure that is not the opinion that you wanted to hear.

[82SiouxGuy]

Still don't care about the Summit League, went to Sioux Men's and Women's Basketball games in the

Meltdown at the Ralph, lucky if there were 1800 people in the REA, and by halftime of Men's game less

than a 1,000, and many of those tickets were complimentary. So, reality is Hockey and Football are the

only sports on campus that really mean anything, and the Summit has nothing to do with those. Alas, the

Summit League and that wonderful run to the NCAA tournament by the Bison, not likely to happen again for

oh say, 20 years or so, so piss on the Summit League. In Grand Forks, Hockey will always be king, whether it's

Red River High, Central high, Senior High or UND, Fargo and Bison fans will never understand that. Right on Goon.

Good for you, ready to make a decision on the future of the entire Athletic Department based on the attendance at 1 event held during a winter storm when the teams are having a down year. That is the type of decision making that got the auto industry in trouble.

You do know that the winner of the Summit League basketball tournament gets into the NCAA men's basketball tournament every year, right? Not every 20 years? And that there will only be 12 teams in the league if UND and another school join? So the odds are that each school will get in at least once every 20 years, most will probably get in a couple of times during that period unless they are horrible?

And hockey hasn't always been king in Grand Forks or at UND. Basketball has done very well during different stages. The basketball teams at UND even used to outdraw the hockey team during the past 20 years, and at other times also. So basketball probably isn't dead at UND, it is just in a down stage. It needs a few things to be revived, and a conference with an auto bid is one of those things. You may be shorted sighted enough to believe that the rest of the Athletic Department is worthless and you may be willing to throw it all away to make one last gasp attempt to keep the nickname. I can assure you that the people making the decisions don't feel that way, and if they believe the chance of getting into a conference is slipping away they will make the move and take the conference.

[Gothmog]

Still don't care about the Summit League, went to Sioux Men's and Women's Basketball games in the

Meltdown at the Ralph, lucky if there were 1800 people in the REA, and by halftime of Men's game less

than a 1,000, and many of those tickets were complimentary. So, reality is Hockey and Football are the

only sports on campus that really mean anything, and the Summit has nothing to do with those. Alas, the

Summit League and that wonderful run to the NCAA tournament by the Bison, not likely to happen again for

oh say, 20 years or so, so piss on the Summit League. In Grand Forks, Hockey will always be king, whether it's

Red River High, Central high, Senior High or UND, Fargo and Bison fans will never understand that. Right on Goon.

Are you so blinded by your allegiance to Hockey that you fail to see the huge opportunity for UND to make a splash in DI Basketball? You've got the resources. All you need to do is go for it. Sioux Basketball can and will be great for the university and the commmunity if people like you will only shed their myopic hockey-centric thinking. The real reason for moving to DI is the chance to compete in the NCAA Basketball tournament. Without membership in a autobid conference, such as the Summit League, UND simply won't get that chance and a great opportunity will be wasted.

[MplsBison]

Still don't care about the Summit League, went to Sioux Men's and Women's Basketball games in the

Meltdown at the Ralph, lucky if there were 1800 people in the REA, and by halftime of Men's game less

than a 1,000, and many of those tickets were complimentary. So, reality is Hockey and Football are the

only sports on campus that really mean anything, and the Summit has nothing to do with those. Alas, the

Summit League and that wonderful run to the NCAA tournament by the Bison, not likely to happen again for

oh say, 20 years or so, so piss on the Summit League. In Grand Forks, Hockey will always be king, whether it's

Red River High, Central high, Senior High or UND, Fargo and Bison fans will never understand that. Right on Goon.

You shouldn't be allowed to be a UND hockey or football fan, with a horses**t attitude like that.

No one says you have to show up at every UND home game for all sports, or even like the other UND sports...but you can at least show some respect to them by supporting their critical need to be apart of an auto-bid conference for all other sports.

Piss on you.

[DamStrait]

Since the moniker became an "issue", UND has been a member of several athletic conferences. There has never been any evidence to show that it was something with which any of those league offices or league member schools (including the current ones) have had to deal in even the slightest way imaginable. This is why the Summit's position is unreasonable - it has no basis in reality. Say UND does knuckle under to the bully and agrees to the only solution available by shortening the time line (agreeing to drop the name). Why does anyone think it unlikely that they will then say, "hold it - you haven't picked a new name, so it still isn't resolved - can't accept your application until you have a new name"? Will we then knuckle under again and rush to pick a new sure to be completely inane name? Probably. And once having done so, why would anyone think it unlikely that they will then say. "hold it - we don't like that name, so it still isn't resolved - can't accept your application until we've picked a name for you"? You don't stop a bully by giving in to him - instead, you only end up further empowering him. UND is a flagship state university with excellent facilities. It has important historical ties with the best of the Summit's current membership. That - by any reasonable and objective standard - should be more than enough. Fans from NDSU and SDSU should demanding of their AD, their president and the Summit league office that an invitation be extended to UND regardless of the nickname "issue". That is for more reasonable than demanding of UND and its fans that they "resolve" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) the name "issue" so that their application will be accepted.

[82SiouxGuy]

Since the moniker became an "issue", UND has been a member of several athletic conferences. There has never been any evidence to show that it was something with which any of those league offices or league member schools (including the current ones) have had to deal in even the slightest way imaginable. This is why the Summit's position is unreasonable - it has no basis in reality. Say UND does knuckle under to the bully and agrees to the only solution available by shortening the time line (agreeing to drop the name). Why does anyone think it unlikely that they will then say, "hold it - you haven't picked a new name, so it still isn't resolved - can't accept your application until you have a new name"? Will we then knuckle under again and rush to pick a new sure to be completely inane name? Probably. And once having done so, why would anyone think it unlikely that they will then say. "hold it - we don't like that name, so it still isn't resolved - can't accept your application until we've picked a name for you"? You don't stop a bully by giving in to him - instead, you only end up further empowering him. UND is a flagship state university with excellent facilities. It has important historical ties with the best of the Summit's current membership. That - by any reasonable and objective standard - should be more than enough. Fans from NDSU and SDSU should demanding of their AD, their president and the Summit league office that an invitation be extended to UND regardless of the nickname "issue". That is for more reasonable than demanding of UND and its fans that they "resolve" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) the name "issue" so that their application will be accepted.

Good luck with demanding that the Summit change just to suit UND. I will repeat, it is their club, they can make the rules to get into their club.

You have selective memory if you don't think that there haven't been issues for other schools in our conferences due to the Fighting Sioux nickname. You just have to look at St. Cloud State University where there are always protests. Yes, they only include a few people. But they are an issue for those schools to deal with and provide publicity that takes away from the games. You can also look at the University of Minnesota. They are a great rival in hockey, but refuse to play UND in other sports because of the nickname issue.

There is also no indication that any other demands will be made by the Summit. They have stated that UND needs to settle the Fighting Sioux nickname issue, either yes or no. You are being paranoid if you believe that they will change their public stance in the middle of the application. It would make them look foolish to the average person if they did that, and they are trying to avoid bad PR. It isn't going to happen.

[sioux7>5]

Good luck with demanding that the Summit change just to suit UND. I will repeat, it is their club, they can make the rules to get into their club.

You have selective memory if you don't think that there haven't been issues for other schools in our conferences due to the Fighting Sioux nickname. You just have to look at St. Cloud State University where there are always protests. Yes, they only include a few people. But they are an issue for those schools to deal with and provide publicity that takes away from the games. You can also look at the University of Minnesota. They are a great rival in hockey, but refuse to play UND in other sports because of the nickname issue.

There is also no indication that any other demands will be made by the Summit. They have stated that UND needs to settle the Fighting Sioux nickname issue, either yes or no. You are being paranoid if you believe that they will change their public stance in the middle of the application. It would make them look foolish to the average person if they did that, and they are trying to avoid bad PR. It isn't going to happen.

The protests at St. Cloud are a joke. I had the opportunity to talk with someone that went to St. Cloud and he told me that the prof that organized it gave people that attended grades based on participation. He told me some of his friends went and protested UND to raise there GPA. That is BS.

[Goon]

I can see why they don't want UND's baggage. I mean - Summit League volleyball games with players leaving the court crying because of the fans/baseball players actions in the stands or fights in bathrooms between two schools basketball players during conference tournaments because of racial slurs. I am just saying that people need to keep things in perspective. We do not live in a perfect society and sometimes we all lose our way. But with the help of those around us most of us seem to figure it out. We all have our flaws.

So what are you saying here? Are you calling UND racist? Please explain...

[dakotadan]

When I went down to Vermillion a few years ago for the UND/USD Football game, there were a handful of protesters that appeared with signs, etc.

And I am sure that NDSU didn't appreciate the attention when the t-shirts appeared on campus that depicted a bison *@&!^ing an indian caricature.

And let's not forget the lovely Hitler video that hit the internet. I am sure the NDSU administration loved spending a week getting requests for interviews and statements reguarding that lovely video.

So yes, this does spill over into other universities.

[DamStrait]

Good luck with demanding that the Summit change just to suit UND. I will repeat, it is their club, they can make the rules to get into their club.

You have selective memory if you don't think that there haven't been issues for other schools in our conferences due to the Fighting Sioux nickname. You just have to look at St. Cloud State University where there are always protests. Yes, they only include a few people. But they are an issue for those schools to deal with and provide publicity that takes away from the games. You can also look at the University of Minnesota. They are a great rival in hockey, but refuse to play UND in other sports because of the nickname issue.

There is also no indication that any other demands will be made by the Summit. They have stated that UND needs to settle the Fighting Sioux nickname issue, either yes or no. You are being paranoid if you believe that they will change their public stance in the middle of the application. It would make them look foolish to the average person if they did that, and they are trying to avoid bad PR. It isn't going to happen.

I'm not "demanding" the Summit do anything - I am simply pointing out that their demands are unreasonable because there is no basis in rationality. The SCSU protests were organized by to what is tantamount to being SCSU. UMN has not been forced to deal with anything because of the UND moniker - if they've done something, it's because they've interjected themselves officiously and gratuitously (as they are so wont to do). The Summit looks foolish to the average person now, and it didn't stop them from making their moronic stance. You should be quoting a British PM in your sig line, but it shouldn't be Churchill.

[MplsBison]

I'm not "demanding" the Summit do anything - I am simply pointing out that their demands are unreasonable because there is no basis in rationality. The SCSU protests were organized by to what is tantamount to being SCSU. UMN has not been forced to deal with anything because of the UND moniker - if they've done something, it's because they've interjected themselves officiously and gratuitously (as they are so wont to do). The Summit looks foolish to the average person now, and it didn't stop them from making their moronic stance. You should quote a British PM in your sig line, but it shouldn't be Churchill.

It's already been pointed out numerous times that the Summit has no incentive to take on the risk of UND's nickname issues backfiring on the league.

Move along..

[DamStrait]

When I went down to Vermillion a few years ago for the UND/USD Football game, there were a handful of protesters that appeared with signs, etc.

And I am sure that NDSU didn't appreciate the attention when the t-shirts appeared on campus that depicted a bison *@&!^ing an indian caricature.

And let's not forget the lovely Hitler video that hit the internet. I am sure the NDSU administration loved spending a week getting requests for interviews and statements reguarding that lovely video.

So yes, this does spill over into other universities.

Self inflicted.

[Stromer]

So what are you saying here? Are you calling UND racist? Please explain...

No. He's giving examples of stuff that has happened in the Summit. Basically clean up your own act before throwing stones at others.

[DamStrait]

It's already been pointed out numerous times that the Summit has no incentive to take on the risk of UND's nickname issues backfiring on the league.

Move along..

Small talk from someone who has nothing to back it up. You should be demanding of your AD, your president and the Summit league office that an invitation be extended to UND regardless of the nickname "issue". That is unless you are nothing but a UND hating troll with an ulterior motive.

[mksioux]

It's already been pointed out numerous times that the Summit has no incentive to take on the risk of UND's nickname issues backfiring on the league.

Move along..

I have no idea why I engage you, but here it goes anyway.

Question #1 - Mr. Douple has said the nickname issue needs to be "resolved" before he will act on UND's application. Mr. Douple has stressed that "resolved" does not mean it has to be dropped. It just needs to be resolved one way or the other. So let's say hypothetically that UND gains Standing Rock's approval tomorrow so UND is in full compliance with the NCAA's settlement, and the SBoHE publicly announces that UND is keeping the nickname, do you agree that under that hypothetical, the nickname issue would be "resolved" to the Summit's satisfaction and they would act on UND's application?

Question #2 - Let's examine the ways the nickname issue could "backfire" on the Summit if they were to move on UND's application before the nickname issue is "resolved" and accept UND into the Summit on the USD timetable.

1) UND does not get approval from Standing Rock by November 2010, and yet, the SBoHE inexplicably decides, "screw it, we're not going to drop the nickname anyway." UND goes back on the NCAA sanctions list.

2) ?

3) ?

Please explain other scenarios where the the nickname issue not being "resolved" before acting on UND's application could backfire on the Summit.

Once I get your answers to these questions, I will see if I can do a better job illustrating my point to you.

[MplsBison]

I have no idea why I engage you, but here it goes anyway.

Question #1 - Mr. Douple has said the nickname issue needs to be "resolved" before he will act on UND's application. Mr. Douple has stressed that "resolved" does not mean it has to be dropped. It just needs to be resolved one way or the other. So let's say hypothetically that UND gains Standing Rock's approval tomorrow so UND is in full compliance with the NCAA's settlement, and the SBoHE publicly announces that UND is keeping the nickname, do you agree that under that hypothetical, the nickname issue would be "resolved" to the Summit's satisfaction and they would act on UND's application?

Question #2 - Let's examine the ways the nickname issue could "backfire" on the Summit if they were to move on UND's application before the nickname issue is "resolved" and accept UND into the Summit on the USD timetable.

1) UND does not get approval from Standing Rock by November 2010, and yet, the SBoHE inexplicably decides, "screw it, we're not going to drop the nickname anyway." UND goes back on the NCAA sanctions list.

2) ?

3) ?

Please explain other scenarios where the the nickname issue not being "resolved" before acting on UND's application could backfire on the Summit.

Once I get your answers to these questions, I will see if I can do a better job illustrating my point to you.

I don't know what the Summit will view as resolved. Perhaps they only consider dropping the nickname as resolved. Afterall, if you keep the nickname somehow, there is always the possibility that this issue could come back at later time.

I have no idea how many different scenarios I could dream up where the Summit League would be automatically drawn into all the nasty trashing PR that comes with the nickname issue, from both sides. But mainly, it's for the scenarios that no one can think of.

Guys...can you at least admit that the only reason you want the Summit to admit UND prior to the nickname resolution is that you think it gives better odds that the nickname could be kept (since Summit membership is one of the driving forces for dropping it)?

[Pudd]

Guys...can you at least admit that the only reason you want the Summit to admit UND prior to the nickname resolution is that you think it gives better odds that the nickname could be kept (since Summit membership is one of the driving forces for dropping it)?

how about so we can get on the schedule for confrence sports while the SBHE tries to figure out what they want to do while saving their reputation

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm not "demanding" the Summit do anything - I am simply pointing out that their demands are unreasonable because there is no basis in rationality. The SCSU protests were organized by to what is tantamount to being SCSU. UMN has not been forced to deal with anything because of the UND moniker - if they've done something, it's because they've interjected themselves officiously and gratuitously (as they are so wont to do). The Summit looks foolish to the average person now, and it didn't stop them from making their moronic stance. You should be quoting a British PM in your sig line, but it shouldn't be Churchill.

I never said that the SCSU protests were a big deal, but they were caused by the nickname. You said that no one in any of the current or past conferences had been affected by the UND nickname issue. SCSU and the other examples given prove that the nickname has been an issue at other schools. I never said how significant an issue, but it is an issue. Why would a conference want to knowingly bring those issues to their member schools if they don't have to? If they have a choice in the matter they will try to avoid any possibility of adding problems to all of the issues they already have to deal with.

The Summit does not look foolish to the average person now. Most people don't have a clue about the entire situation. College sports fans in this region may know about it, and some even disagree with it, but most don't believe that the Summit looks foolish. The only group that believes the Summit looks foolish are the very strongest Fighting Sioux nickname supporters, and mainly the ones that want to keep the name at all costs. But the Summit probably did learn a lesson in that they got some bad press by making the demand last spring so they will be very hesitant to change that demand again during the process.

And your reference to Neville Chamberlain isn't relevant at all. What the SBoHE and the UND administration are doing at this point is making a good business decision based on risk assessment. The chances or odds of successfully keeping the nickname have been bad since the NCAA made their initial ruling and they decrease every day. They have to weigh what it would cost to continue trying to keep it and the odds of being successful plus any potential lost opportunities from not getting into a conference with the costs of changing the name now. They are taking the emotion out of the decision making process because making business decisions based on emotions is a recipe for disaster. Emotionally the vast majority want to keep the nickname. Business decision making says it is rapidly approaching the deadline to make a change.

[Chewey]

Are you so blinded by your allegiance to Hockey that you fail to see the huge opportunity for UND to make a splash in DI Basketball? You've got the resources. All you need to do is go for it. Sioux Basketball can and will be great for the university and the commmunity if people like you will only shed their myopic hockey-centric thinking. The real reason for moving to DI is the chance to compete in the NCAA Basketball tournament. Without membership in a autobid conference, such as the Summit League, UND simply won't get that chance and a great opportunity will be wasted.

OMG, this troll is back too? They really must have torn down the walls at the asylum.

[Chewey]

Since when should any school be afraid of protests? Weren't some of these hippies like Douple participants in the Viet Nam War protests? It's the exercise of free speech and an introduction to the marketplace of ideas. If "divisiveness" and "protesting" are going to be grounds for pause to inviting a school into a league or otherwise, then pretty much everything should be at risk. If was ever proved that Engineers from RPI were involved in the Manhattan Project and the development of nuclear weapons, shouldn't I start protesting every sporting event that RPI has and shouldn't they be forced to change the nickname? Does RPI get a referendum approved by the survivors of the Hiroshima disaster (I truly believe Harry Truman is burning right now), or their descendants, in order to keep the nickname? Does RPI need to do that to prevent from being booted out of the ECAC? What does RPI do if it wants to join Hockey East? It's unbelievable that this is even an issue. Like I said, times have been too good and some people have developed a penchant to fuss over really stupid things. All of this should appropriately radicalize any reasonable person against this business.

[82SiouxGuy]

Since when should any school be afraid of protests? Weren't some of these hippies like Douple participants in the Viet Nam War protests? It's the exercise of free speech and an introduction to the marketplace of ideas. If "divisiveness" and "protesting" are going to be grounds for pause to inviting a school into a league or otherwise, then pretty much everything should be at risk. If was ever proved that Engineers from RPI were involved in the Manhattan Project and the development of nuclear weapons, shouldn't I start protesting every sporting event that RPI has and shouldn't they be forced to change the nickname? Does RPI get a referendum approved by the survivors of the Hiroshima disaster (I truly believe Harry Truman is burning right now), or their descendants, in order to keep the nickname? Does RPI need to do that to prevent from being booted out of the ECAC? What does RPI do if it wants to join Hockey East? It's unbelievable that this is even an issue. Like I said, times have been too good and some people have developed a penchant to fuss over really stupid things. All of this should appropriately radicalize any reasonable person against this business.

Nice tangent.

If you really wanted to you could find or manufacture something to protest about any nickname or any issue. Bison or buffaloes are sacred to some tribes. So are eagles. They are also the National bird so you could claim they are trivializing the National bird. Pick any team named after a human or a human trait and someone could get upset about that. Guess what, they're not protesting those names. So none of those other schools care. And they don't understand. So trying to get their support is a lost cause. Now if you want to start picking on the Engineers of RPI, whether it is for real reasons of to prove a point you can go ahead. People aren't going to care.

Whether you believe it or not, this is an issue. It is a real issue unlike your picking on the poor Engineers. It is an issue for a sizable number of people. And it is an issue for people in a variety of places, not just the small group that protests at UND or the head people at Standing Rock. Whether you like it or not, it is a real issue for real people.

The schools and the Summit League don't want the protests because it isn't their issue. And believe it or not, saving a sports nickname doesn't rank very high with non-sports fans. Many people in academics are not sports fans. They don't care about sports nicknames. As a matter of fact many of them think that they are childish just like a lot of them think sports are childish. Also, they don't see any value to that particular debate. They like debate and protesting issues that are relevant or important. Saving or protesting a sports nickname certainly doesn't fit into either of those descriptions for them.

[MplsBison]

82, thanks for your continued commitment and loyalty to reason.

[DamStrait]

I never said that the SCSU protests were a big deal, but they were caused by the nickname. You said that no one in any of the current or past conferences had been affected by the UND nickname issue. SCSU and the other examples given prove that the nickname has been an issue at other schools. I never said how significant an issue, but it is an issue. Why would a conference want to knowingly bring those issues to their member schools if they don't have to? If they have a choice in the matter they will try to avoid any possibility of adding problems to all of the issues they already have to deal with.

The Summit does not look foolish to the average person now. Most people don't have a clue about the entire situation. College sports fans in this region may know about it, and some even disagree with it, but most don't believe that the Summit looks foolish. The only group that believes the Summit looks foolish are the very strongest Fighting Sioux nickname supporters, and mainly the ones that want to keep the name at all costs. But the Summit probably did learn a lesson in that they got some bad press by making the demand last spring so they will be very hesitant to change that demand again during the process.

And your reference to Neville Chamberlain isn't relevant at all. What the SBoHE and the UND administration are doing at this point is making a good business decision based on risk assessment. The chances or odds of successfully keeping the nickname have been bad since the NCAA made their initial ruling and they decrease every day. They have to weigh what it would cost to continue trying to keep it and the odds of being successful plus any potential lost opportunities from not getting into a conference with the costs of changing the name now. They are taking the emotion out of the decision making process because making business decisions based on emotions is a recipe for disaster. Emotionally the vast majority want to keep the nickname. Business decision making says it is rapidly approaching the deadline to make a change.

An astute observer would point out that the real reason for the SCSU protests was to draw attention away from SCSU's record of racial and religious intolerance on their campus. Have you ever seen any of those protests? The best way to describe them is "underwhelming". They couldn't be bothered enough to educate themselves on the issue so that they could get their chant right ("people not mascots" - although UND does not have a mascot).

When talking about the average person, we are obviously talking about the average person after having the facts laid out before them. Do you honestly believe that the average person, when informed of the Summit's position and of the existing agreement with the NCAA on the issue would think the Summit is being reasonable? Really?!? Knowing, of course, that all the statistically relevant polling on the issue of schools with indian monikers has shown that a very strong majority has no problem with them. You are foolish not to yield the point.

The reference to Chamberlain is relevant - both of you hope that by giving in to an unreasonable bully, that bully will then ask no more from you. I find your apologist defense of Douple to be nothing short of viscerally repugnant. Be careful of what you wish for - without emotion, there would be very little donation to UND period.

I've got news for you, you are never going to convince me that the Summit's position is reasonable - relevant historical evidence shows that it is not. You obviously do not agree. We are just going to have to accept that neither of us will be moved on that point. You should know by now, however, that anyone that has "MplsBison" on their side is treading on very thin ice indeed.

[Chewey]

82 Sioux has some good points, although they are difficult to accept and even more difficult to comprehend the twisted and racist PC mindset that put those points inexorably (apparently) into play. I sympathize with what you're saying DamStrait and I agree with you. My point earlier about RPI was exactly what you're saying. Of course, 82 says, that such is not the issue now and that we have to deal with what we have to deal with now. That may be true, but the bottom line is that bullies will be bullies and there will always be protesters about something; whether those protesters exist now or in the future, the PC metastasis is there. The moral is that you fight within the bounds and deadlines that you're given, which the SBoHE has largely NOT done, rather than simply offer up your jugular. The political gamesmanship and the massive energy put towards simple expediency, regardless of what 98% of the alumni feel, of all of this is what really pisses me off. IF anything, protesting would be good in that it exposes the fools for what they are. If protests can't be tolerated, then live in a bubble. If a bunch of us were to go protest at UND home games after they change the nickname or if a bunch of us go protest the SBoHE or arrive outside the Summit offices, I wonder what their position would be. Maybe if 500 or a thousand protesters exhibiting the same puerile and petulant conduct of the anti-nicknamers showed up, instead of 10 or 20 anti-nicknamers, their take could be markedly different. They are counting on adults acting like adults though which is why expediency is at such a premium with them. They know that they won't get that with the juveniles on the other side.