MplsBison Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The fact is North Dakotans don't like being told what to do and don't give up without a fight. I hope that if we lose the battle over the Sioux name we go down swinging. I still can't believe that the NCAA can impose its ridiculous will on an entire state that doesn't want it. UND can choose not to be members of the NCAA any time it wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 If we were talking about the Mayville State Sioux, this would have never been an issue. We're not...so it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackburn87 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 UND can choose not to be members of the NCAA any time it wants. That's a stupid argument and you know it is. UND cannot choose to leave the NCAA and compete in any collegiate sports at any serious level, particularly in hockey. The NCAA knows this and demands capitulatution. Don't play their politically correct BS games, and the NCAA will take your ball and go home. Their attitude and arrogance indicates that they are not interested in any serious discourse on this issue. It's easier just not to fight and they want everyone to weary of it. I am not one of those people. Most North Dakotans are not either. You may be hostile to the Sioux name, but why do you care? You're not a Sioux fan.... unless... the Fighting Sioux logo hurts your feelings and makes you cry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The NCAA should stick to scheduling games and making sure they keep their 22,000 page recruiting handbook up to date. Leave the social issues to the state/local/sovereign governments to figure out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn-O Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The NCAA should stick to scheduling games and making sure they keep their 22,000 page recruiting handbook up to date. Leave the social issues to the state/local/sovereign governments to figure out. I couldn't agree more but that ship has sailed, unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 That's a stupid argument and you know it is. UND cannot choose to leave the NCAA and compete in any collegiate sports at any serious level, particularly in hockey. The NCAA knows this and demands capitulatution. Don't play their politically correct BS games, and the NCAA will take your ball and go home. Their attitude and arrogance indicates that they are not interested in any serious discourse on this issue. It's easier just not to fight and they want everyone to weary of it. I am not one of those people. Most North Dakotans are not either. You may be hostile to the Sioux name, but why do you care? You're not a Sioux fan.... unless... the Fighting Sioux logo hurts your feelings and makes you cry? Besides, since 1992 the Fighting Sioux own the Bison in just about everything. Moo U has always envied UND's law school, med school, flight school and D-1 status. As far as Fargoans are concerned, how can arm pit Grand Forks have that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/143804/ Finally some really good news from the Standing Rock!!!!! RHHIT is breaking the constitution, lets just say i am not shocked. Maybe now they can get a tribe wide vote on this and then the SBoHE can shut up and let the process be without any interference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Finally some really good news from the Standing Rock!!!!! RHHIT is breaking the constitution, lets just say i am not shocked. Maybe now they can get a tribe wide vote on this and then the SBoHE can shut up and let the process be without any interference. That's good news! A couple of points on the current SL lawsuit: First, the Assistant AG says it would be "unconstitutional" to take away the SBoHE's authority if this lawsuit was upheld...really? Someone with some law background explain that one to me please. Second, find it interesting that a SL elder gave testimony and the Assistant AG dismissed it as "not relevant to the legal issue". So again it come down to the NA people of the 2 tribes are irrelevant? and have no say on this issues? Third, I find it ironic that the SBoHE, a board of EDUCATION, is hanging it's so called authority, on the fact that this issue could delay whether UND gets in a conference and how it is going to effect it's transition to D1. Again, a board formed and based on the state's EDUCATIONAL system has it's top priority as this? This just smell, which it has from the begiining, of collusion between UND's administration and the SBoHE to end this issue at all costs regardless of what the 2 tribes say or feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 That's good news! A couple of points on the current SL lawsuit: First, the Assistant AG says it would be "unconstitutional" to take away the SBoHE's authority if this lawsuit was upheld...really? Someone with some law background explain that one to me please. Second, find it interesting that a SL elder gave testimony and the Assistant AG dismissed it as "not relevant to the legal issue". So again it come down to the NA people of the 2 tribes are irrelevant? and have no say on this issues? Third, I find it ironic that the SBoHE, a board of EDUCATION, is hanging it's so called authority, on the fact that this issue could delay whether UND gets in a conference and how it is going to effect it's transition to D1. Again, a board formed and based on the state's EDUCATIONAL system has it's top priority as this? This just smell, which it has from the begiining, of collusion between UND's administration and the SBoHE to end this issue at all costs regardless of what the 2 tribes say or feel. So how would this look...the SL lawsuit is dismissed, the SBoHE is ruling to chance the name and just when they are about too the SR comes out and says we are ready for a vote. What is so fricken important about the damn Summit League??? Our bball teams suck!!! Its not like there will never ever be another chance. I just don't get it. Is losing our nickname, our identity that important that we would shut out 1 tribe from attempting to get a vote done in the timeline set BY the NCAA so we can try to get membership approval from a second rate conference. Its not like UND is ready for March Madness when we can't beat fricken Mayville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/143770/ This article outlines what happened in Devils Lake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 So how would this look...the SL lawsuit is dismissed, the SBoHE is ruling to chance the name and just when they are about too the SR comes out and says we are ready for a vote. From all indications since this mess started, it has become crystal clear the SBoHE could care less about what the tribes want or think. Not to mention, IMO, that the UND administration(s) has had the SBoHE bent over from day 1 on this issue as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 From all indications since this mess started, it has become crystal clear the SBoHE could care less about what the tribes want or think. Not to mention, IMO, that the UND administration(s) has had the SBoHE bent over from day 1 on this issue as well! Yeah thats starting to be my impression too, i don't think the name is going to last once this lawsuit is done, i think the SBoHE is going to have a final say and that say is the name is gone. Good luck to Wayne Stenjeum for re-election. I will never vote for that douche ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/143770/ This article outlines what happened in Devils Lake. As I suspected, the tribe never had a legal leg to stand on. They're hoping to win something on a purely emotional appeal. The SBoHE has the authority to govern UND. Plain and simple. The SL tribe can't be allowed to take that away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 As I suspected, the tribe never had a legal leg to stand on. They're hoping to win something on a purely emotional appeal. The SBoHE has the authority to govern UND. Plain and simple. The SL tribe can't be allowed to take that away. Maybe that's the case, but I guess will have to see what the judges ruling is. The SBoHE "has to authority to govern UND" to what extent??? I don't think the SBoHE was created to have the final say in ANY situation that comes about within a university in this state. To me that is an extreme stretch of power! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Maybe that's the case, but I guess will have to see what the judges ruling is. The SBoHE "has to authority to govern UND" to what extent I don't think the SBoHE was created to have the final say in ANY situation that comes about within a university in this state. To me that is an extreme stretch of power! Exactly!! That is what the judge will decide!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxforeverbaby Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Yeah thats starting to be my impression too, i don't think the name is going to last once this lawsuit is done, i think the SBoHE is going to have a final say and that say is the name is gone. Good luck to Wayne Stenjeum for re-election. I will never vote for that douche ever. just to say, Wayne Stenjeum does support the nickname, but part of his job as Attorney General is to act as attorney for the SBoHE...you can't blame a guy for doing his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mksioux Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The SBoHE will be legally free to drop the nickname by Christmas. The only thing that can save the Sioux nickname at this point is a significant development by Standing Rock that would make it politically impossible to immediately drop the nickname, such as the formal announcement of a referendum. Anything short of that, the nickname is gone. This lawsuit served its purpose. It bought Standing Rock a little more time. That time is about up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Maybe that's the case, but I guess will have to see what the judges ruling is. The SBoHE "has to authority to govern UND" to what extent??? I don't think the SBoHE was created to have the final say in ANY situation that comes about within a university in this state. To me that is an extreme stretch of power! You're only saying that because you don't want the SBoHE to be able to tell UND to retire the nickname. Another emotional appeal not based on logic or law. The SBoHE has the authority. If the court tries to take that away, they are in the wrong and should be punished for it. And by the way (not that I want to get into legal philosophy or semantics, etc. but..) what is the precedent/procedure/whatever whereby a court's decision is "thrown out" or decided to be incorrect? Because otherwise it seems like everyone (including politicians) are at the mercy of court rulings! As if we are just supposed to live with whatever the court rules as being the final say, forever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Exactly!! That is what the judge will decide!!! It shouldn't be up to the judge to decide it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why does a judge...one man....get to be so all-powerful!?! If the constitution does not specifically prohibit the SBoHE from an aspect of governing the state's universities, then it HAS the power, per the constitution. This should not be allowed to be "interpreted" by some court. If they want to change something, it should have to be a change to the constitution! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 just to say, Wayne Stenjeum does support the nickname, but part of his job as Attorney General is to act as attorney for the SBoHE...you can't blame a guy for doing his job. Sorry, logic and reason need not apply to the Sioux nickname! Only emotional appeals are allowed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjw007 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 UND can choose not to be members of the NCAA any time it wants. That's an invalid argument. A similar argument can be made that you have the right to join a union or not in a union shop. To get the job, you must join the union. To not join the union means not getting a job. Let's see, join the union and have work or stand on principle and not join the union and starve. Really, do you have a choice (technically you don't have to join the union but you must pay the initiation fee plus the weekly membership fees, effectively making you a union member but without voice and you fall under the union contract with the employee). The NCAA is a monopoly, pure and simple. If you have any doubts about this, please check up on anti-competition laws. Companies that had a smaller percentage of market control than the NCAA has have been broken up (Standard Oil when it was broke up had a smaller market share for example). The NFL and MLB are other examples that are allowed to be monopolies. For schools, there really is no good alternative and to make that argument is a losing proposition. Sort of like you can go to something other than Microsoft Windows. True, there are alternatives but you cant find the software on these operating systems the same as you can for windows. You are really forced to use windows even if you use another operating system. Likewise, the other organizations (NAIA for example) don't have the breathe of membership that is available to the NCAA membership. Schools don't have any real alternative to the NCAA especially in depth and breathe of opportunities. It is conceivable in the future, a major group could form its own organization (BCS schools) come to mind but there really is no viable alternative today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 So MplsBison if the board said tomorrow we are going to change NDSU's nickname and make the college pay millions to redue all the sporting venues and whatnot would you be okay with that. The thing is: #1 Why does the board need to interfere when the NCAA put a timeline that IS set in stone? That is the reason for all of this. Are they board? Nothing to do? Lets decide to screw with the NCAA/UND lawsuit. Why did the SL vote? Why are they screaming for the SR to vote (when they know that @sshole RHHIT and his cronies makes it impossible to vote and are now trying to remove the damage he caused) when they are going to turn around and stab the tribes and the UND fans/alums/ and students in the back and change the name well ahead of the Nov 30, 2010 deadline. I think 1 judge is all we need. I hope this bites the SBoHE in the @ss when its all done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjw007 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 You're only saying that because you don't want the SBoHE to be able to tell UND to retire the nickname. Another emotional appeal not based on logic or law. The SBoHE has the authority. If the court tries to take that away, they are in the wrong and should be punished for it. And by the way (not that I want to get into legal philosophy or semantics, etc. but..) what is the precedent/procedure/whatever whereby a court's decision is "thrown out" or decided to be incorrect? Because otherwise it seems like everyone (including politicians) are at the mercy of court rulings! As if we are just supposed to live with whatever the court rules as being the final say, forever? Court rulings get over thrown all the time. The current one that I can think of the was the new Supreme Courts' member, Sortameirer (sorry for misspelling) where her ruling on the promotions of firemen (I believe) was denied but the Supreme Court over turned her ruling and said that they should have been promoted. The procedure is very simple, just challenge the ruling to the next higher court if there is a legal standing. It might make it all the way to the Supreme Court whose decision is final, at least for the moment until the next Supreme Court overthrows it (i.e 1890's separate but equal doctrine, 1954 separate is inherently unequal [brown vs Board of Topeka I believe]). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 You're only saying that because you don't want the SBoHE to be able to tell UND to retire the nickname. Another emotional appeal not based on logic or law. The SBoHE has the authority. If the court tries to take that away, they are in the wrong and should be punished for it. Again to what extent does the SBoHE have the authority to rule on ANY university issue? Like a time-out? You are just a complete bumbling tool! BTW...from your previos posts on other threads, you didn't seem to feel the same way about SHoHE's power when Whiskey Joe was digging his own grave! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Dan Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Again to what extent does the SBoHE have the authority to rule on ANY university issue? Like a time-out? You are just a complete bumbling tool! BTW...from your previos posts on other threads, you didn't seem to feel the same way about SHoHE's power when Whiskey Joe was digging his own grave! Like wise everyone on this board said that Joe HAD to obey the SBoHE - Can't have it both ways. I do agree that the SBoHE shouldn't even be involved in this. That the only reason they were brough in was to be the fall guy for when the name changes and not the administration at UND. PC will get you every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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