NCAA Name Issue

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Florida State is not nearly as affected by this as UND.  It's main team (football) is exempt because DIA does not have a postseason tournament.  It's basketball team is only marginally affected (it's uniforms) because DI basketball uses neutral sites in the tournament.

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Actually, baseball is a huge sport at FSU as well (Baseball is the hockey of the Southern schools). They're one of the top teams nearly every year. This new ruling means they can no longer be a Super Regional or Regional site on the road to Omaha. FSU won't sit by and let it happen.

That said, UND should join the effort and not make FSU do this themselves. FSU is only going to look out for FSU.

[HockeyMom]

Florida State is making championship runs in several sports on a yearly basis.

Not to mention ACC Championships, which are post-season tournies.

I heard a few years back schools that have changed their nicknames had about 40% of their alumni donations drop off the first four years of the change. What institution could afford that?

One other question: people keep talking about lawsuits, but how realistic is that? Joining the NCAA is not requied, it's voluntary, and it's self-run--the university presidents and chancellors make the rules through elected (I believe) committeess...the championships are NCAA championships, put on by the NCAA, and run by their rules. If you voluntarily submit to being in an organization, have your representatives running it, what realistic chance do you have in suing if they do something you don't like? It's hard for me to see a lawsuit being successful, but stanger things have certainly happened (someone earlier mentioned the McDonald's coffee case). It might be more fruitful to challange the NCAA on the basis of it being a monopoly, at least in effect if not in reality (i.e., while there is an alternative, it really isn't much of one)...

The lawsuits are VERY realistic, I wouldn't be surprized to see one filed this week. Just because being a part of something that is voluntary doesn't mean that they can discriminate and do whatever they like. That's like saying because you have a job and someone pays you they can treat you however they want, and if you don't like it you can quit. It ain't gonna fly.

[GCWaters]

Florida State is making championship runs in several sports on a yearly basis.

Not to mention ACC Championships, which are post-season tournies.

I heard a few years back schools that have changed their nicknames had about 40% of their alumni donations drop off the first four years of the change.  What institution could afford that?

The lawsuits are VERY realistic, I wouldn't be surprized to see one filed this week. Just because being a part of something that is voluntary doesn't mean that they can discriminate and do whatever they like. That's like saying because you have a job and someone pays you they can treat you however they want, and if you don't like it you can quit. It ain't gonna fly.

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But, in this case, "they" is "we"...colleges/universities don't work for the NCAA, they ARE the NCAA...the nickname decision wa made by the executive council, which is made up presidents and provosts....they are elected (I believe) to make decisions like this....I just don't see it...

[HockeyMom]

But, in this case, "they" is "we"...colleges/universities don't work for the NCAA, they ARE the NCAA...the nickname decision wa made by the executive council, which is made up presidents and provosts....they are elected (I believe) to make decisions like this....I just don't see it...

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Ok, so put it as a health club, they can't discriminate against members, the NCAA is discriminating against 18 schools. Ask those two women in Fargo who wanted a family membership at the YMCA.

The ban is dicrimination, it will not get farther than I can run.

[Northcountry]

A fleeting thought - Since "Dakota" is also an Indian name, does this mean that in any postseason competition we can only be referred to as the University of North? And do we have to cover the Dakota everywhere that North Dakota appears on a uniform or in an arena?For Pete's sake our STATE is named for the Sioux who occupied it, how can it be "offensive" and "abusive" to name the state's University in the same way?

[HockeyMom]

A fleeting thought - Since "Dakota" is also an Indian name, does this mean that in any postseason competition we can only be referred to as the University of North? And do we have to cover the Dakota everywhere that North Dakota appears on a uniform or in an arena?For Pete's sake our STATE is named for the Sioux who occupied it, how can it be "offensive" and "abusive" to name the state's University in the same way?

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Good point!

My business has Dakota in it. Do I have to change the name?

[PCM]

USA Today has a story here that includes a poll in which you can vote on the NCCA's new American Indian names policy.

When I voted, there were 16,820 votes cast and the results were:

3% The ruling sounds like a fair compromise.

3% Huh? How are they possibly going to enforce it?

8% It's not enough. They should be completely banned.

10% Come on NCAA, let the schools decide.

76% Ridiculous. Political correctness gone too far.

I interpret that as 11% for the NCAA and 89% against.

[PCM]

From the New Hampshire Union Leader

The PCAA: Mocking tradition and autonomy

In the name of sensitivity the NCAA is engaging in the very sort of racism it claims to be fighting. The all-knowing white people (three of the committee's 19 members are black) will decide for everyone what shall be done.

Such arrogance is the province of kings, sultans and committees with too much power and too little accountability.

[PCM]

From the Virginian-Pilot

Hue and cry over nicknames cast in several shades of gray

The NCAA means well, though you can

[PCM]

From the IlliniBoard.com

The Self-Righteous (Sadly Misguided) NCAA

Why is it that multiple schools with a Native American mascot in its origins have been put on notice but not the San Diego State Aztecs? The Aztecs were once a great nation and people who were first butchered and then enslaved by Spanish Conquistadores. Their nation was destroyed, and their memory largely blotted out for hundreds of years until rediscovered by archaeologists and historians. Don

[PCM]

From the Greeley (CO) Tribune:

NCAA, leave mascots alone

The University of North Dakota, a former North Central Conference colleague of the University of Northern Colorado, has honestly stated it doesn't know where it stands in regard to Friday's announcement by the NCAA.

UND's mascot is the Fighting Sioux, and one of 28 NCAA schools that feature American Indian monikers or mascots.

In more than 20 years of association with UND, I have never seen the Sioux logo used in a hostile or abusive way.

In fact, UND takes pride in its ability to display the logo in relation to American Indians who settled there in past centuries.

[PCM]

From the Herald Democrat in Oklahoma:

SOSU mascot under scrutiny

Approximately 28 percent of SOSU's undergrad enrollment was Native American in 2004, according to the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education.

However, the only NCAA school that has been exempted from the ban because of its Native American heritage is the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, a school founded to serve this group. UNC-Pembroke uses the nickname "Braves" and includes the bust of an American Indian with a hawk in its logo.

It's interesting that UNC-Pembroke get to use it's American Indian name because it has a 20 percent Native American enrollment, but Southeastern Oklahoma State University, which has a 28 percent Native American enrollment, is being required by the NCAA to drop its name, the Savages.

[GeauxSioux]

I

[ESPNInsider]

There is a lot of talk on here about FSU being the one that will put up the big fight. I would think Illinois would be fighting it harder. First off FSU is a football school and this will not affect football at all. Secondly, Illinois is a basketball school. And third, Illinois has a great law school. Not that that is a huge difference but it definately will help. Just some thoughts.

[mksioux]

In re-reading the press release I keep seeing where it says the policy applies only to the

[GeauxSioux]

[jimdahl]

First off FSU is a football school and this will not affect football at all.

[mksioux]

There is a lot of talk on here about FSU being the one that will put up the big fight.  I would think Illinois would be fighting it harder.  First off FSU is a football school and this will not affect football at all.  Secondly, Illinois is a basketball school.  And third, Illinois has a great law school.  Not that that is a huge difference but it definately will help.  Just some thoughts.

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I don

[IowaBison]

A couple of thoughts

1. If many Native Americans (or rather the people with too much time on their hands from middle and upper-middle class families) dislike the presence of the sacred feathers in the logo, how happy are they going to be when 4,500 of them are covered in March during the the tourney?

As a Catholic, I'd be pretty upset if a team used a crucifix in its logo, but I'd be f%%kin' irate if they covered these depictions with duct tape each time the team made the playoffs or hosted a post season event.

2. Everyone thinks McFeely is an ass, that's his job.

[dagies]

Not yet, anyway... DI-A football takes up mascot issue. The other interesting quote from that article was:

But legal expects generally found the NCAA's position defensible. "I think, in the end, schools that push back get caught up in the legal quagmire of being a voluntary member of an association where the members determine the rules," said Kenneth Shropshire, a professor at Pennsylvania University's Wharton Sports Business Initiative and president of the Reston, Va.-based Sports Lawyers Association. "Limiting (the guidelines) to championships is probably helpful to the NCAA's case, too. Cases are generally better when the least restrictive route for accomplishing a regulatory goal is taken."

This is the part that tells me the end of The University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux is near. I hope not, but I'm resigned to it.

However, I have these thoughts:

1. DON'T wear F--k the NCAA t-shirts to the regionals. All that will do is harden the hearts of the NCAA to win the day, IMO.

2. Everyone just continue to wear their jersey's, shirts, etc with the current logo plastered all over it.

3. If indeed this causes the nickname to change, then I will write letters to the NCAA urging them to continue the fight against the Fighting Irish and all other similar types of nicknames. If they want to pick on us, then push them into the uncomfortable realm of being consistent with their pathetic decisions.

4. Change the UND nickname to The University of North Dakota Fighting NCAA's to mock and embarrass the NCAA.

[HockeyMom]

A lawyer on either side of the fight can make his case seem unbeatable.

I'm still not worried.

[jimdahl]

1.  If many Native Americans (or rather the people with too much time on their hands from middle and upper-middle class families) dislike the presence of the sacred feathers in the logo, how happy are they going to be when 4,500 of them are covered in March during the the tourney?

Yeah, I had this quote from the FSU president in another thread:

The rules as we understand them would have us cover the Seminole name and symbol as if we were embarrassed, and any committee that would think that is a proper and respectful treatment of Native Americans should be ashamed.

[star2city]

The NCAA took into consideration the resolution the Seminole Tribe of Florida passed June 17. But the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma has strongly opposed Florida State's use of the name, and that didn't escape the NCAA's attention either.

Here's a partial transcript from the NCAA teleconfernce:

[PCM]

So an NCAA committee works with a new vice-president and within five (5) working days make these kinds of changes?  And the decree goes out on Friday! 

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If you listened closely to the teleconference, the difference between the way executive committee chair Walter Hill and president Myles Brand spoke and the way Westerhaus spoke are rather interesting. Hill and Brand spoke as if this new policy was a done deal and there wasn't much anyone could do about it.

Westerhaus, who's a lawyer with a journalism degree, made it clear that she wasn't speaking as counsel for the NCAA and spoke as if there was a great deal yet to be decided. The contrast was subtle, but it was definitely there. It left me wondering if Hill and Brand were putting the cart before the horse.

[star2city]

Florida newspapers are reporting that the NCAA Diversity Committee met in an "unplanned" conference call last night.

Appeals process on NCAA committee's agenda

The NCAA executive committee that two weeks ago declared 18 schools to have "hostile and abusive" American Indian mascots and imagery was scheduled to meet Thursday night by conference call to discuss the appeals process for universities such as Florida State that have protested their inclusion.

The committee had previously not been scheduled to meet again until Oct. 27.  "But I'm not sure the NCAA expected the response they're getting from some of the institutions," said Don Kojich, the executive associate vice president for university relations at the University of North Dakota, another of the 18 schools. "I think [this meeting]is positive on many fronts."

North Dakota's appeal, on the other hand, likely will focus on the school's high American-Indian enrollment -- currently 400 of about 13,500 students -- and reputation for offering more American-Indian majors and programs than any other school in the country.