jloos Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 Star Trib Article Give me a break. Growing up in Fargo, I got my ass handed to me by Moorhead several times in hockey. I have yet to start picking people off from a bell tower. What are they proposing, having a seperate state tournament for teams with bad seasons? I agree the 27-0 MHD game and the 101-4 BB losses can be discouraging. That is a part of sports, Monticello did win 1 game, I imagine that was seen as a moral victory of sorts. If anything it should give these teams motivation to work harder and for people in the community to get their kids involved with sports instead of seeing how fat they get playing their playstation. But for every state champion, there is a team that ends its season with a crushing and often embarrassing loss in an opening-round section game. Frequently, those opening-round matchups are between one of the state's top teams and one of the worst, which is causing some to question the state's playoff system. The lopsided losses take an emotional toll. Some players say teammates have quit rather than endure the prospect of continued losing. Child psychologists and school administrators say coaches and parents must stress the value of participating, rather than winning or losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 I stopped reading when I hit the part about the growing gap between the "haves and have nots." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I'm glad they got the child psychologists involved in this, that makes me feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 In the early'90s there was a tournament (post-8 team tourny and pre-A and AA) in which the top 8 in each section played Tier 1 and the rest of the Section played Tier 2. The format lasted 2 or 3 years...poor attendence at the Tier 2 tourny. My point is that this writer may want to get a clue and realize there has been attempts to change the situation. It didn't work out. If you are not good - you are not good. If you are afraid of losing, end your sports career at T-ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Al Frost, Roosevelt athletic director, said the situation is serious enough that he has considered removing his girls' basketball team from the section playoffs to avoid a potentially embarrassing situation. What would be more embarassing than being the only team in your section to not compete in the section tournament. Students from surrounding communities would have a field day ripping on the team for wussing out and not playing in the section tournament. As a former student-athlete in a fairly small town in northwest Minnesota I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to go to the State Tournament knowing you will have to play a private school from the suburbs and that you pretty much have no shot. Yet, just getting to the State tournament is a huge accomplishment. There is nothing wrong with the high school tournaments! Nothing needs to be changed! If your team loses badly to another team it's the coaches and parents job to show the kid it's not the end of the world. Losing 27-0 builds character! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 First off, let me tell you that children, at a young age, LEARN that losing is bad. From whom? Why, their parents of course! I've seen kids excited after a game they JUST LOST playing T-Ball because they got to play and they may have gotten a hit or two and ran the bases and caught a ball and just had fun only to skip over to their parents and have them say "That's nice but you still lost the game." Parents and school administrators and coaches and all who think that the important thing is to have fun and that it doesn't matter whether you win or lose are kidding themselves. The only people out there that truly don't care, at first, are the kids. I'm not saying that the adage of having fun and not caring about the win or loss is a stupid thing to push for. Far from it, but you can't tell a child one thing and then be upset because the outcome of the game didn't turn out like you wanted. Life doesn't work like that. Remember, folks, it doesn't just happen in T-ball. Somewhere out east a parent killed another parent at a hockey game because he felt that the son of the dead man checked his child in a dangerous manner. Instead of working out ways to make the less talented teams feeling better about having a chance to win their own little meaningless tournement (instead of competing in the tourny that, although they may lose lose badly in the first round, means it all), they should make the game fun; win or lose. The atmosphere should surround that instead of whether or not you are the best at anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Sounds to me this is a byproduct of the warm and fuzzies who decided we needed to hand out Championship trophies to every school at the end of the year. As the article said, by breaking up the schools into too many tiers, they created large gaps of teams that had to be eligible to make the playoffs (due to a shortage of teams overall). If there were more teams in a class, they could more easily institute record requirements to keep the 1-19 team from playing the 22-4 team and getting beat 27-0 in hockey. Yes, there would be fewer teams making a state tournament but there is still a balance. Now there are multiple teams making the state tournaments and more state champions. Everyone is happy, until we find out that we now have poor teams getting hammered and embarrassed. Look at the debris in the road from our drive to reward more "Champions". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Any of you expected less from the Star Tribune? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirtcoach Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I just finished a boat-load of research into this and discovered that less than half of all games end up with winners, not only for hockey but other sports!!!! And half the teams in these sports end up with losing records!!!! How does this build self-esteem when half the kids end up losers every night??? Those kids from Monticello/Buffalo/Big Lake, while not having the best talent, got to skate with players who will someday play Division 1 hockey. Maybe even threw a check at Lee or Ammerman. They can take heart in that, I surely would. I still tell my kids that I played JV football against Dale Lennon and kicked his butt and took names!! One issue that was not addressed here is the fact that kids from the MBBL schools open enrolled at some other schools, including I believe Elk River. Every year the Elk River hockey coach has to defend himself against charges of recruiting. Where there is smoke.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 "Child psychologists and school administrators say coaches and parents must stress the value of participating, rather than winning or losing." What a bunch of horsesh*t. If you join any competitive activity, including a job that pays more than $6/hour, with anything less than the goal of winning, you should not be there in the first place. So, quit wasting your time, your team's time and everybody else's time with your lame-ass, pathetic and "mediocrity is acceptable" presence. I have no problem with multiple tiers, classes or divisions in anything, provided the participants are expected to do their best, even if they fail. However, if some "parent" is going to teach their progeny that anything less than a drive to excel is acceptable, they should put their kid up for adoption and have themselves "fixed". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 The consistently losing thing does suck and I do hate to see a team get blown out. That's why I like the play in games that section 8A uses to seed the bottom teams. It gives those teams a chance to play a more evenly game and a chance to win and advance. Then they get their asses handed to them after the first game. I wouldn't say the Minnesota tournament is perfect. It never will be until those teams that recruit aren't allowed in or have to play their own tourney. The private schools should have their own. How can a public school compete with a $15,000 scholarship. Mainly they need to do away with open enrollment and the foreign exchange players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I should add some coaches to the earlier post. It's not fair of me to put all the blame on the importance of winning on just the parents' shoulders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 First off, let me tell you that children, at a young age, LEARN that losing is bad. From whom? Why, their parents of course! I've seen kids excited after a game they JUST LOST playing T-Ball because they got to play and they may have gotten a hit or two and ran the bases and caught a ball and just had fun only to skip over to their parents and have them say "That's nice but you still lost the game." Parents and school administrators and coaches and all who think that the important thing is to have fun and that it doesn't matter whether you win or lose are kidding themselves. The only people out there that truly don't care, at first, are the kids. I'm not saying that the adage of having fun and not caring about the win or loss is a stupid thing to push for. Far from it, but you can't tell a child one thing and then be upset because the outcome of the game didn't turn out like you wanted. Life doesn't work like that. Remember, folks, it doesn't just happen in T-ball. Somewhere out east a parent killed another parent at a hockey game because he felt that the son of the dead man checked his child in a dangerous manner. Instead of working out ways to make the less talented teams feeling better about having a chance to win their own little meaningless tournement (instead of competing in the tourny that, although they may lose lose badly in the first round, means it all), they should make the game fun; win or lose. The atmosphere should surround that instead of whether or not you are the best at anything. Kids don't care about losing? What planet are you from? I hate to be cliche but winning is everything to kids at the age of junior high and up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinnesotaNorthStar Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Kids don't care about losing? What planet are you from? I hate to be cliche but winning is everything to kids at the age of junior high and up. We started taking hockey seriously in Squirts. The minute you made a travelling team, it was a lot more, intense, if you will (but it was still fun). Our first practice after tryouts was held at an elemtary school gym and classroom. There we learned breakouts and forechecks. Then it was onto the gym where we practiced them with tennis balls instead of sticks and pucks....just to get the positioning down. We had dryland practice after one practice a week. Eventually, in Bantams, it was after EVERY practice. Nothing was worse than losing in those days (except when we got our a$$e$ handed to us by a team from Winnipeg, we kinda expected that). We wanted to win, we were dissapointed when we didn't. Now I turned out REASONABLY sane, didn't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southpaw Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Sports and high schools in general have turned into little places where people are too worried about protecting a students "rights" than teching them. For me, high school wasn't fun, but it was something everybody should go through. It would have sucked 100 times more had there been special rules in place to protect students. I see minnesota is thinking of added a bill that makes bullying illegal and a punishable offense. Get a clue guys, bullying is part of growing up, you cant just punish kids for being kids. "everyone gather around and hug, because thats what kids are supposed to do." Let kids be kids, throw dodgeballs, get their asses handed to them in hockey. Don't impose rules and sanctions to try and make it fair for everyone, because no matter how much you try and screw with the system, some kids are just better at things than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Sports and high schools in general have turned into little places where people are too worried about protecting a students "rights" than teching them. For me, high school wasn't fun, but it was something everybody should go through. It would have sucked 100 times more had there been special rules in place to protect students. I see minnesota is thinking of added a bill that makes bullying illegal and a punishable offense. Get a clue guys, bullying is part of growing up, you cant just punish kids for being kids. "everyone gather around and hug, because thats what kids are supposed to do." Let kids be kids, throw dodgeballs, get their asses handed to them in hockey. Don't impose rules and sanctions to try and make it fair for everyone, because no matter how much you try and screw with the system, some kids are just better at things than others. I agree with most everything you said except for the bullying. Kids should never be scared to go to school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Sports and high schools in general have turned into little places where people are too worried about protecting a students "rights" than teching them. For me, high school wasn't fun, but it was something everybody should go through. It would have sucked 100 times more had there been special rules in place to protect students. I see minnesota is thinking of added a bill that makes bullying illegal and a punishable offense. Get a clue guys, bullying is part of growing up, you cant just punish kids for being kids. "everyone gather around and hug, because thats what kids are supposed to do." Let kids be kids, throw dodgeballs, get their asses handed to them in hockey. Don't impose rules and sanctions to try and make it fair for everyone, because no matter how much you try and screw with the system, some kids are just better at things than others. I agree totally. If you can't take it as well as dish it out then run to your mommy and get home-schooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake10 Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 The Star Trib sucks. I grew up in GF and we used to get beat by Roseau and Warroad all the time. I now live in Albertvill, just south east of Monticello. My son won't be playing hocky for 4 more years but we are moving to Plymouth/Wayzata so he cen get in a good program. Plus Monticello is a bunch of hicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 The Star Trib sucks. I grew up in GF and we used to get beat by Roseau and Warroad all the time. I now live in Albertvill, just south east of Monticello. My son won't be playing hocky for 4 more years but we are moving to Plymouth/Wayzata so he cen get in a good program. Plus Monticello is a bunch of hicks. *DING* Sioux Cred for moving just because the other town has a better hockey program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirtcoach Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I agree with most everything you said except for the bullying. Kids should never be scared to go to school. Even if you're the principal's kid??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirtcoach Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 The Star Trib sucks. I grew up in GF and we used to get beat by Roseau and Warroad all the time. I now live in Albertvill, just south east of Monticello. My son won't be playing hocky for 4 more years but we are moving to Plymouth/Wayzata so he cen get in a good program. Plus Monticello is a bunch of hicks. Oh, you're just gonna love that Wayzata Bantam A coach. Good luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Kids don't care about losing? What planet are you from? I hate to be cliche but winning is everything to kids at the age of junior high and up. You said "junior high and up" I wasn't talking about kids that old. I was talking about T-ball and the 5 and 6 year olds. The young kids just starting out in organized sports. I wasn't talking about jr. high kids or even upper elementary kids. By the time they are that old, they already know winning is important and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 The article isn't talking about kids that are 5 and 6 years old. I don't understand what you're getting at. Yes, kids at the age of 5 and 6 don't really care about winning but the article was talking about the state tournaments. Also, I've coached 5 to 6 years olds in t-ball and I've never heard a parent say "yes but you still lost." If any parent said that it would be wrong but I wouldn't expect it at that age. The parent would probably say it when the kid read JUNIOR HIGH AND UP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Whine, whine, whine. I played basketball from the third grade until my junior year in high school. 2/3 of the way thru my junior season, the varsity coach called a team meeting of the freshmen, JV, and varsity squads. At that time, he announced "cuts" from each one so he could bump up better 8th graders to the freshman team, freshman to JV, and some JV players to varsity. Despite being one of the better JV players (12 points per game and not on Allen Iverson 6 of 28 shooting either), I was cut in favor of a benchwarmer who happened to be the first cousin of two varsity players. Did I cry about it? Hell yea. Did I learn that the fun things and the things you want out of life aren't necessarily just handed to you? Yep. Did I get over it? NO, I did not. Wait. Yea, I was bummed, but life went on. Life is about lessons and there are bound to be disappointments. That was a big one in my life, but today we're all about coddling kids and telling them they can have anything and everything they want just because that's how it should be. And it's definitely not the best thing to be teaching them. Sports is about winners and losers and so is life. Get over it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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